Catholic Church claims it is above the law

Min · 18-07-2011 05:26PM

Jim Corr would show more respect to people than you who use his name.

philologos · 18-07-2011 05:29PM

Latchy wrote: »

Well myth or nay , ( but I except it's a myth on your say ) the church like everybody else took a back seat wherever the Nazis showed up simply because they didn't have the power to challenge them .My original point being that religions have being the cause of more human suffering throughout history .

Careful. You are making a leap to go from one particular situation to commenting about all expressions of faith.

I've yet to see how the vast majority of peoples faith causes huge issues. What I have seen is institutions rotting. There are numerous examples of this both in and outside of churches. We need to stand up and demand that this be stamped out in every area of life so that no more people will have their lives destroyed by such insidious behaviour.

That sounds reasonable no?

Min · 18-07-2011 05:31PM

Latchy wrote: »

Well myth or nay , ( but I except it's a myth on your say ) the church like everybody else took a back seat wherever the Nazis showed up simply because they didn't have the power to challenge them .My original point being that religions have being the cause of more human suffering throughout history .

Not my say - a Rabbi wrote a book which was researched rather than a made up play.

He used research from another Jew and an Israeli diplomat and historian Pinchas Lapide who through his research said he found that the Catholic church saved at least 700,000 Jews and this figure could be as high as 830,000.
Another Jew Jeno Levai also a historian who lived in Hungary said there was not a church in Hungary that didn't have Jews hidden away during WW2.

The church didn't take a back seat, how many Jews did the Muslims save. How many did humanist socieites save?
An Israeli diplomat has put the figure for the Catholic church in the hundreds of thousands of Jews saved.

Monty Burnz · 18-07-2011 05:36PM

Min wrote: »

An Israeli diplomat has put the figure for the Catholic church in the hundreds of thousands of Jews saved.

Very interesting, but that figure is dwarfed by the millions that the church did not save. And I wasn't aware that it was CC policy to save Jewish people? Would I be mistaken in my belief that heroic individuals like Hugh O'Flaherty were acting on their own initiative, rather than carrying out CC policy?

Tehachapi · 18-07-2011 05:37PM

philologos wrote: »

Careful. You are making a leap to go from one particular situation to commenting about all expressions of faith.

I've yet to see how the vast majority of peoples faith causes huge issues. What I have seen is institutions rotting. There are numerous examples of this both in and outside of churches. We need to stand up and demand that this be stamped out in every area of life so that no more people will have their lives destroyed by such insidious behaviour.

That sounds reasonable no?

Religious institutions are breeding grounds for this kind of abuse. The perfect conditions and levels of power were present for having sex with children, and covering it up effectively.

I don't know of any non-religious institution in the history of the world so complicit in having sex with children, and doing everything possible to conceal it and protect the rapists from the law/media/public/etc.

The sad thing is, the exact same things are probably happening in poorer parts of the world such as africa right now in areas "blessed" by christian intervention.

Ghost Buster · 18-07-2011 05:40PM

Min wrote: »

Not my say - a Rabbi wrote a book which was researched rather than a made up play.

He used research from another Jew and an Israeli diplomat and historian Pinchas Lapide who through his research said he found that the Catholic church saved at least 700,000 Jews and this figure could be as high as 830,000.
Another Jew Jeno Levai also a historian who lived in Hungary said there was not a church in Hungary that didn't have Jews hidden away during WW2.

The church didn't take a back seat, how many Jews did the Muslims save. How many did humanist socieites save?
An Israeli diplomat has put the figure for the Catholic church in the hundreds of thousands of Jews saved.

Thats an effective method of debate and defence you have there:
"But but but but they were doing it to"

philologos · 18-07-2011 05:42PM

Tehachapi: Such abuse is widespread in Irish society in general. What is more insidious about the abuse which occurred in the RCC is the scale of the coverup and the involvement of the Vatican in said cover up. At least other abusers didn't have this kind of privilege. That said it is factually wrong to say that abuse was confined in the RCC as it is clear that it has occurred in schools, in families, in sports clubs for decades in fact much of it was concurrent to what was happening in the RCC.

It's all wrong, and I condemn all of it. I have yet to see how this shows that the faith that I and numerous other people have in Christ is damaging much in the same way that I have yet to see that swimming is damaging given that swimming teams created an environment in Ireland where abuse could occur, the same is true of schooling and so on. What is insidious about the RCC aspect isn't so much the abuse, but the cover up. Had the abuse occurred and the churches went straight to the Gardaí one could hardly have blamed the RCC. Given that it was allowed to dwell, and that people who were abused were treated as nothing that's the problem as far as I see it.

Jumping from this particular case to all faith is simply unfounded.

Vicxas · 18-07-2011 05:42PM

Jesus made me do it....

Latchy · 18-07-2011 05:43PM

philologos wrote: »

Careful. You are making a leap to go from one particular situation to commenting about all expressions of faith.

Expressions of faith are to encourged as long as it doen't infringe on the beliefs and faiths of others yes and majority of posters in this thread were not attacking the Catholic faith or any faith but the structure that allows wrong doing to take place in that church .Dying for your faith is another thing .

I've yet to see how the vast majority of peoples faith causes huge issues. What I have seen is institutions rotting. There are numerous examples of this both in and outside of churches. We need to stand up and demand that this be stamped out in every area of life so that no more people will have their lives destroyed by such insidious behaviour.

People will always have their faith even when it comes into question and their are great example out there of how people use their faith to help others but we must never again become complacent when it comes to people who by their behaviour destroy lives .

That sounds reasonable no?

Very !

Min · 18-07-2011 05:46PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Very interesting, but that figure is dwarfed by the millions that the church did not save. And I wasn't aware that it was CC policy to save Jewish people? Would I be mistaken in my belief that heroic individuals like Hugh O'Flaherty were acting on their own initiative, rather than carrying out CC policy?

As Stalin asked to belittle the Vatican - The Pope! How many divisions has he got?
Why do you expect the church to have saved every Jew, where was everyone else when it came to saving Jews from the horrors of the Nazi's?

Over 3 million Catholics were killed in Poland, it is not like the church was immune to the slaughter and the people who were hidden away was done in secret, there was also concentration camps where Catholic priests were kept.
Everything had to be done in secret to save lives

Min · 18-07-2011 05:47PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Thats an effective method of debate and defence you have there:
"But but but but they were doing it to"

Troll alert.

Monty Burnz · 18-07-2011 05:49PM

Min wrote: »

As Stalin asked to belittle the Vatican - The Pope! How many divisions has he got?
Why do you expect the church to have saved every Jew, where was everyone else when it came to saving Jews from the horrors of the Nazi's?

Over 3 million Catholics were killed in Poland, it is not like the church was immune to the slaughter and the people who were hidden away was done in secret, there was also concentration camps where Catholic priests were kept.
Everything had to be done in secret to save lives

So the church put temporal issues ahead of eternal principles? Much like they have done and continue to do with regard to child rapists in their ranks?

philologos · 18-07-2011 05:51PM

Latchy wrote: »

Expressions of faith are to encourged as long as it doen't infringe on the beliefs and faiths of others yes and majority of posters in this thread were not attacking the Catholic faith or any faith but the structure that allows wrong doing to take place in that church .Dying for your faith is another thing .

I agree, but some people are jumping from the conclusion to rightfully criticise the RCC as an institution, to criticising all expressions of faith. I find that an abuse of this topic.

People of necessity have the liberty to believe what they like. In general I have found that it mostly produces a positive effect in its adherents, and indeed in general other research has too, but I'll leave that aside for now.

As for dying for ones faith, that's not really on this topic either. As far as I see it people should never be put in a situation where they have to die for their faith.

Latchy wrote: »

People will always have their faith even when it comes into question and their are great example out there of how people use their faith to help others but we must never again become complacent when it comes to people who by their behaviour destroy lives.

Personally, my faith comes into question on a regular basis. I find the questioning something that deepens my faith rather than pulls it apart. It helps me to think about things that I wouldn't ordinarily have thought about. I can thank a lot of people on boards.ie for helping me to give my faith a rigorous examination over the last few years. To say that all people who believe in God, or who believe in Christianity or any other form of belief are unthinking or uncritical in all respects is really wrong.

I agree with your conclusion though. Never again should we allow anyone in any organisation to get away with breaking the law in this country.

Delirium · 18-07-2011 06:03PM

Min wrote: »

Troll alert.

I think your troll detector is faulty

Ghost Buster · 18-07-2011 06:05PM

Min wrote: »

Troll alert.

Ummm. You dont know hat a troll is do you?
I was making a broad comment on your posting style which seems to consist of comments , mostly incorrect as to the culpability of other religions or organisations in various abuses whilst ignoring the fact that this thread is about the RCC and its idea that its religious beliefs are outside of state law.
Ill dig you up some multi quotes of this posting style if your like:)

Ghost Buster · 18-07-2011 06:13PM

Min wrote: »

, how many Jews did the Muslims save. How many did humanist socieites save?
.

Min wrote: »

.
No one in this country is held into account whether it is people in the church, people who work for the state, bankers who broke this country with their crazy lending.
I am disillusioned with this state, if the state does a deal it should keep it's word, if the Irish church brings in high standards of child protection then all diocese should be on the same page and implement it fully.
I had a deal with the state in regards to a grant for a farm building, the state changed the rules of when they would pay after the building was put up, they had to pay as they had agreed to it plus interest for not paying on time.
The state should pay what it agreed or else why should anyone who entered an agreement with the state trust it to keep it's side of the agreement?

Min wrote: »

Ireland being pro-active?

The state would be better looking for the money so it can provide the care that children deserve, the thing with the confessional offers nothing in child protection.
Wouldn't it better putting in the resources so a mother doesn't abuse her 8 children for 9 years after the HSE first became aware of the abuse?
This is what we are dealing with in this country when it comes to child protection, how can the state make an issue out of a non issue, it was not in the confessional that information was withheld, so the confesional is a diversion tactic from the real issues - the state wants social workers to get more work when they are unable to deal with their current workload and there is nothing coming from the government that suggests they intend to address this problem.
.

Min wrote: »

Troll alert.

Tah dah!!!!!

"But but but but but its not just our fault others were doing it as well!!!!!!!"

Min · 18-07-2011 06:21PM

koth wrote: »

I think your troll detector is faulty

No, it is just you are friendly with trolls.

Min · 18-07-2011 06:25PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So the church put temporal issues ahead of eternal principles? Much like they have done and continue to do with regard to child rapists in their ranks?

The church acted in a way that saved lives in WW2.

The church itself was not immune to the Nazis.

This is entirely different to how the abuse was handled.

Ghost Buster · 18-07-2011 06:26PM

Min wrote: »

No, it is just you are friendly with trolls.

Yes. Koth (Real name Christopher Dawkins) and I meet up with the rest of the atheist homosexual communist alliance in a secret location to discuss ways to over throw the RCC whilst defending Das State. LONG LIVE GILMORE AND QUINN!!!!!

.......now thats trollin baby

Monty Burnz · 18-07-2011 06:29PM

Min wrote: »

The church acted in a way that saved lives in WW2.

The church itself was not immune to the Nazis.

This is entirely different to how the abuse was handled.

"The Church was not immune to Nazis" - so what? Isn't the whole point of the church that it is supposed to model itself on Jesus Christ? Didn't Jesus Christ give his life for his fellow man?

You are basically arguing that the CC didn't stand up to the Nazis because that would have been dangerous. Well of course it would - but backing away from danger like that (abandoning the principles your church was founded on) means that the church put material life on earth ahead of the eternal principles of Christianity it claims to represent. No?

Min · 18-07-2011 06:30PM

I don't think you would have a very good meeting as anyone who says anything you disagree with is either a liar as you implied I was yesterday and I am still awaiting an apology but I don't think you are man enough to admit you were wrong or you stick your fingers in your ears or shut your eyes and not even acknowledge or debate properly the point.
You are simply trolling Ghost Buster.

Min · 18-07-2011 06:36PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

"The Church was not immune to Nazis" - so what? Isn't the whole point of the church that it is supposed to model itself on Jesus Christ? Didn't Jesus Christ give his life for his fellow man?

You are basically arguing that the CC didn't stand up to the Nazis because that would have been dangerous. Well of course it would - but backing away from danger like that (abandoning the principles your church was founded on) means that the church put material life on earth ahead of the eternal principles of Christianity it claims to represent. No?

It spoke out against Nazism, that is very clear. However the church would be ineffective if it was so outspoken that churches were closed down - the places where Jews were hidden or the Vatican was invaded and Castel Gandolfo - the Pope's summer residence was invaded where thousands of Jews were hidden.

The material life that was saved according to Pinchas Lapide is upto 830,000 Jewish lives.

Ghost Buster · 18-07-2011 06:37PM

Min wrote: »

I don't think you would have a very good meeting as anyone who says anything you disagree with is either a liar as you implied I was yesterday and I am still awaiting an apology but I don't think you are man enough to admit you were wrong or you stick your fingers in your ears or shut your eyes and not even acknowledge or debate properly the point.
You are simply trolling Ghost Buster.

Nope. You falsely stated that the fairy tale known as the seal of the confessional was formally held up in law in most of the western world. I supplied links pointing out that in Ireland, The UK, Canada and most of the US States that there is only a very very loose , almost customary recognition of this privilage which is very very tentative.
I am trying hard to debate the point (Catholicism thinking it is outside of state law) but the usual 'oppressed catholic" rabble are on here making so much bluff and bluster that it is very difficult.

Monty Burnz · 18-07-2011 06:42PM

Min wrote: »

It spoke out against Nazism, that is very clear. However the church would be ineffective if it was so outspoken that churches were closed down - the places where Jews were hidden or the Vatican was invaded and Castel Gandolfo - the Pope's summer residence was invaded where thousands of Jews were hidden.

The material life that was saved according to Pinchas Lapide is upto 830,000 Jewish lives.

You are missing the point. The hierarchy didn't publicly resist one of the most evil regimes in human history, yet today they resist irrelevancies like gay marriage. Which do you think would have bothered Jesus more? Two people of the same sex making a lifelong commitment to each other, or the industrialised slaughter of a whole people?

And who is to say what would have happened if the Catholic church had taken a principled stand against the German and Italian fascists? Perhaps support for the Nazis would have collapsed if the Pope and others were martyred, and tens of millions of lives saved?

But no, they stayed quiet and protected their own lives and the church's property. I wonder what the early Christians, or Christ himself, would have made of that?

Latchy · 18-07-2011 06:44PM

philologos wrote: »

I agree, but some people are jumping from the conclusion to rightfully criticise the RCC as an institution, to criticising all expressions of faith. I find that an abuse of this topic.

People of necessity have the liberty to believe what they like. In general I have found that it mostly produces a positive effect in its adherents, and indeed in general other research has too, but I'll leave that aside for now.

I think people who were born into the faith but consider themselfs lapsed catholics or just non-religious now at least have the knowledge and expierences of that faith that made them question it enough to leave .They will argue that not having to deal with a religion gives them as much peace as somebody who draws comfort from it .

Personally, my faith comes into question on a regular basis. I find the questioning something that deepens my faith rather than pulls it apart. It helps me to think about things that I wouldn't ordinarily have thought about. I can thank a lot of people on boards.ie for helping me to give my faith a rigorous examination over the last few years. To say that all people who believe in God, or who believe in Christianity or any other form of belief are unthinking or uncritical in all respects is really wrong .

Not something I would do myself nor I believe , many of the posters who have contributed to this thread .

dvpower · 18-07-2011 06:44PM

crucamim wrote: »

The reporting should be done by the victims or by the parents or guardians of the victim. Let the police take it from there.

You don't even agree with the current child protection policies of the RCC?

Ghost Buster · 18-07-2011 06:45PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You are missing the point. The hierarchy didn't publicly resist one of the most evil regimes in human history, yet today they resist irrelevancies like gay marriage. Which do you think would have bothered Jesus more? Two people of the same sex making a lifelong commitment to each other, or the industrialised slaughter of a whole people?

And who is to say what would have happened if the Catholic church had taken a principled stand against the German and Italian fascists? Perhaps support for the Nazis would have collapsed if the Pope and others were martyred, and tens of millions of lives saved?

But no, they stayed quiet and protected their own lives and the church's property. I wonder what the early Christians, or Christ himself, would have made of that?

Besides. For almost every quote and reference (mostly unlinked) that Min gives supporting The Vaticans stance and actions during WW2 there are more denouncing it. Take a peak.

Min · 18-07-2011 07:13PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Nope. You falsely stated that the fairy tale known as the seal of the confessional was formally held up in law in most of the western world. I supplied links pointing out that in Ireland, The UK, Canada and most of the US States that there is only a very very loose , almost customary recognition of this privilage which is very very tentative.
I am trying hard to debate the point (Catholicism thinking it is outside of state law) but the usual 'oppressed catholic" rabble are on here making so much bluff and bluster that it is very difficult.

Not my problem you cannot read properly, I said by law in some countries and by custom and practice in others and posted an article to this effect, again I don't believe you bothered to read it and you believe your own fairy tales which are many as you are not open to debate.

The Irish Times said by law in the US with two different areas of the US constitution that protects it mentioned.

I am not an oppressed Catholic, it doesn't mean we are blind to anti-Catholic like you which this forum seems to tolerate to a degree that is not good for debate.
Thankfully there are some who can debate against the church in a reasonable manner without calling the person they disagree a liar, just look back and read the Irish times article please and keep your disgusting accusations that I am a liar to yourself as you are the one who did not read the Irish Times article properly.

Ghost Buster · 18-07-2011 07:33PM

Min wrote: »

It is not about protecting children unless you believe the UK, the US and other western countries are failing to protect children as some by law and others by custom and practice allow the seal of the confessional to remain secret.

Ok. So the UK, Canada and Ireland has only loose customary observance of The Magic Seal of the Confessional and only 6 US states legally recognise the magic Seal.
You said 'some by law"....
Which Western countries legally recognise the seal?

No porkies now.....;)

dvpower · 18-07-2011 07:39PM

Min wrote: »

The Irish Times said by law in the US with two different areas of the US constitution that protects it mentioned.

There appears to be some debate about the constitutional position of priest-penitent privilege in the US where it has some limitations.

In the US the RCC have attempted to use it to cover much much more that the confessional (as we would understand it).
We obviously cannot trust the church not to misuse the confessional seal, so we need strong mandatory reporting legislation that defines what is and isn't privileged communication.

Although the privilege has had widespread support, the priest-penitent privilege came under fire during the Catholic Church's clergy-abuse scandals in the early 00s when local prosecutors seeking information regarding clergy abuse were stymied by claims that such information was covered in the priest-penitent privilege. During these confrontations with local prosecutors, churches often attempted to stretch the bounds of the priest-penitent privilege to the point of breaking. For example, in Roman Catholic Archbishop of Los Angeles v. Superior Court, the Roman Catholic Archbishop asserted the privilege in raft of internal documents. The court rejected the church's claim that internal documents were protected by the First Amendment, the Free Exercise Clause of California Constitution, the state's statutory priest-penitent privilege and the psychotherapist-patient privilege. The vast majority of these privilege claims were rejected as spurious

Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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