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Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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Comments

  • #872
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    I take anything I hear on Kenny and RTE with a pinch of salt but even then...

    Actually the 50/50 payout came about because of the 2009 Ryan Report.
    Yes, the religious orders want to pay the victims directly as to avoiding having to account by normal book keeping practises, observation by the state and accountability.

    They can say "well we paid out X amount" and there would be no independent/state verification ability to actually show that they actually did pay out that full amount!
    - Frankly I wouldn't trust any of the religious orders and its only right that the state over sees the compensation amounts.
    We don't allow victims to receive money from abusers in direct handovers in most modern countries.
    The courts/state do this, act as a go between as to ensure that it is indeed done and to the full amount.

    The fact also that they won't even pay out 50% of compensation to their victims, is frankly disgusting.
    They should be paying out 100% for fcuks sake anyway!

    It was a recommendation from the Ryan report, it was not something agreed so the state is not in a position to make out it is now a 50/50 split.

    You say "We don't allow victims to receive money from abusers" (to just clarify that quote so I don't put it out of context, that is directly from the abuser) and "The courts/state do this, act as a go between as to ensure that it is indeed done and to the full amount.".
    I think you are missing it was the state courts that put these people into the institutions, it was state inspectors who failed to see any abuse. It is not like the state were not involved in the abuse, they put the people into these places and their inspectors failed and still no one has been held to account in court over this so I don't know why the state is seen like some shining light in all of this.
    I am disgusted by what happened in my church and I think anyone who thinks the state holds the answers is being blind to the reality.
    No one in this country is held into account whether it is people in the church, people who work for the state, bankers who broke this country with their crazy lending.
    I am disillusioned with this state, if the state does a deal it should keep it's word, if the Irish church brings in high standards of child protection then all diocese should be on the same page and implement it fully.
    I had a deal with the state in regards to a grant for a farm building, the state changed the rules of when they would pay after the building was put up, they had to pay as they had agreed to it plus interest for not paying on time.
    The state should pay what it agreed or else why should anyone who entered an agreement with the state trust it to keep it's side of the agreement?


  • #873
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,682 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Scarlette Gorgeous Ware wrote: »
    No a few priests who went out and did some very very bad things does not make the catholic church a cult. You would swear harming children was actually part of it the way you and some other are going on, ye are unable or dont want to see that its not the church itself thats done anything wrong its a small number of its members.

    I don't know a single person who was controlled or put in danger by the catholic church and virtually everyone I know is or was in the past a practising catholic.

    The 'few bad apples' has been comprehensively refuted by the repeated revelations from the multiple reports.

    Chomsky(2017) on the Republican party

    "Has there ever been an organisation in human history that is dedicated, with such commitment, to the destruction of organised human life on Earth?"



  • #874
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Min wrote: »
    ...I think you are missing it was the state courts that put these people into the institutions, (1) it was state inspectors who failed to see any abuse. It is not like the state were not involved in the abuse, they put the people into these places and their inspectors failed and still no one has been held to account in court over this so I don't know why the state is seen like some shining light in all of this.
    I am disgusted by what happened in my church and (2) I think anyone who thinks the state holds the answers is being blind to the reality.
    No one in this country is held into account whether it is people in the church, people who work for the state, bankers who broke this country with their crazy lending.
    I am disillusioned with this state, if the state does a deal it should keep it's word, if the Irish church brings in high standards of child protection then all diocese should be on the same page and implement it fully.
    (3) I had a deal with the state in regards to a grant for a farm building, the state changed the rules of when they would pay after the building was put up, they had to pay as they had agreed to it plus interest for not paying on time.

    (4) The state should pay what it agreed or else why should anyone who entered an agreement with the state trust it to keep it's side of the agreement?

    (1) State inspectors can only find what they can, given the level of silence and cover-up the religious sickos carried out - and they had that practise too, down to a fine art!

    (2) No one said they have all the answers but they do have the legal authority to hold those responsible, accountable. They have the legal and moral right to make these evil organisations pay up for their crimes.

    (3) That's a TOTALLY separate issue and has no relevance to the current topic.

    (4) The state on their side, IS paying out as agreed - unlike the other evil bastards!


  • #875
    Suzie Sue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭Suzie Sue


    Biggins wrote: »
    (1) State inspectors can only find what they can, given the level of silence and cover-up the religious sickos carried out - and they had that practise too, down to a fine art!

    Yet they too, along with the Gardai, ingnored reports of abuse
    Biggins wrote: »
    (2) No one said they have all the answers but they do have the legal authority to hold those responsible, accountable. They have the legal and moral right to make these evil organisations pay up for their crimes.

    So when is the state going to start prosecuting and gaoling those named in the reports ?
    Biggins wrote: »
    (4) The state on their side, IS paying out as agreed - unlike the other evil bastards!

    The state is paying for their own failures, and not half enough


  • #876
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Suzie Sue wrote: »
    Yet they too, along with the Gardai, ingnored reports of abuse
    O' look... they are paying out compensation for that!
    Suzie Sue wrote: »
    ...So when is the state going to start prosecuting and gaoling those named in the reports ?
    ...Well they might start as soon as the religious orgs had over their criminals, give up their hiding places, give up ALL the evidence in paper trail form and a lot more besides!
    Suzie Sue wrote: »
    The state is paying for their own failures, and not half enough
    Well at least the state is willing to pay (and is!) - unlike the other schits who won't even cough up 50% for their crimes done!


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  • #877
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,773 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    irishdude11 wrote: »

    The RCC is one sick, twisted, disgusting f*cking cult. Hopefully this Cloyne report, and that fact that we have a non-FF govnmt, will finally see this country tell the church to go and get f*cked once and for all and leave us in peace. Unfortunately they are so deeply embedded in society I reckon it will take another couple of these reports to finally kill them off.

    You have to wonder at the above when in the UK people jump through unbelievable hoops to get their children into Catholic schools as they are far far superior. Its not like here where anyone can attend a catholic school even parents who attend mass every week probably wont get their child in, they have to help in the church etc and the children have to attend mass every week, serve mass, be in the choir etc etc.


  • #878
    Suzie Sue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭Suzie Sue


    Biggins wrote: »
    O' look... they are paying out compensation for that!

    O' look, the state was also to blame !
    Biggins wrote: »
    ...Well they might start as soon as the religious orgs had over their criminals, give up their hiding places, give up ALL the evidence in paper trail form and a lot more besides!

    Very few of them are in "hiding" so when are majority going to be arrested, prosecuted and gaoled ? When is the state going to start doing their job ???
    Biggins wrote: »
    Well at least the state is willing to pay (and is!) - unlike the other schits who won't even cough up 50% for their crimes done!

    Figures please. How much was set by the state and how much has been paid, and when does it have to be paid by ?


  • #879
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Suzie Sue wrote: »
    Very few of them are in "hiding" so when are majority going to be arrested, prosecuted and gaoled ? When is the state going to start doing their job ???

    Bishop magee has gone walkabout it seems, although the DPP gave him a pass :confused:. And that golden cleric brendan smyth was hidden away even though the peelers up north were looking for him


  • #880
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Suzie Sue wrote: »
    Very few of them are in "hiding" so when are majority going to be arrested, prosecuted and gaoled ? When is the state going to start doing their job ???
    Maybe when the religious orgs start carrying out their obligations to victims!

    I suspect also as soon as all the evidence is collected and fully available to the state from those that are still refusing to hand over everything!
    Upon assessment of possible successful prosecutions, you might get what you seek!
    ...But I suspect you know all this already! In the meantime, the original schits that created this whole mess, is unwilling to play their part in providing redress to their victims.

    They are a disgusting bunch of criminals hiding behind their frocks!


  • #881
    Suzie Sue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭Suzie Sue


    Bambi wrote: »
    Bishop magee has gone walkabout it seems, although the DPP gave him a pass :confused:. And that golden cleric brendan smyth was hidden away even though the peelers up north were looking for him

    So that's one in hiding and one dead in gaol.

    So when are majority that were named going to be arrested, prosecuted and gaoled ? When is the state going to start doing their job ???


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  • #882
    Suzie Sue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭Suzie Sue


    Biggins wrote: »
    Maybe when the religious orgs start carrying out their obligations to victims!

    I suspect also as soon as all the evidence is collected and fully available to the state from those that are still refusing to hand over everything!
    Upon assessment of possible successful prosecutions, you might get what you seek!
    ...But I suspect you know all this already! In the meantime, the original schits that created this whole mess, is unwilling to play their part in providing redress to their victims.

    They are a disgusting bunch of criminals hiding behind their frocks!

    They have the proof and evidence in the reports.
    So, When is the state going to start doing their job ???


  • #883
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    Biggins wrote: »
    (1) State inspectors can only find what they can, given the level of silence and cover-up the religious sickos carried out - and they had that practise too, down to a fine art!

    (2) No one said they have all the answers but they do have the legal authority to hold those responsible, accountable. They have the legal and moral right to make these evil organisations pay up for their crimes.

    (3) That's a TOTALLY separate issue and has no relevance to the current topic.

    (4) The state on their side, IS paying out as agreed - unlike the other evil bastards!

    I. They were inspectors so why did they tell when they were going to inspect, it seems to have defeated the purpose of being an inspector given the people would be there so an appointment was hardly necessary. Also corporal punishment was allowed by the state - not all the abuse was sexual some of it was physical and one could argue the state allowed the physical abuse via corporal punsihment.

    2. You are talking about pay, what about the people who did the abuse, how many have the state brought before the courts, it is in the independent that it is no one.

    3. No not a seprate issue, a deal with the state is a binding agreement, Ruairi can talk till he leaves office but he has no power to make anyone pay more than what was agreed.

    4. The state is on their side, putting files in regards to cases in the Cloyne report into drawers and not being dealt with, prosecuting no one over the Ryan report, HSE and gardai failing in the Ferns report, same in Dublin.
    If the state is on their side then I don't know what to say, the state is all talk and wants to bring in something which has failed elsewhere plus a child protection policy which is difficult to implement.
    Yeah the state is on their side, tell that to the 8 children who were abused upto 2009 by their mother with the HSE knowing for 9 years but didn't do anything as they were travellers.
    I do not trust the state is on anyone's side, it continously fails victims of abuse.


  • #884
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Suzie Sue wrote: »
    They have the proof and evidence in the reports.
    So, When is the state going to start doing their job ???
    Why are you asking me?
    Am I running the fcuking country?
    If you want to know - why don't you bother to ask those in charge if your that bothered about that question?


  • #885
    Suzie Sue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭Suzie Sue


    Biggins wrote: »
    Why are you asking me?
    Am I running the fcuking country?
    If you want to know - why don't you bother to ask those in charge if your that bothered about that question?

    These are the questions WE SHOULD ALL be asking the state.


  • #886
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,190 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    irishdude11 wrote: »
    It's great that Catholics have that right isn't it? But what about the rights of everyone in the country not to have their children educated by an organisation that has raped and abused generations of Irish children, and covered it up?

    I reckon it will take another couple of these reports to finally kill them off.
    You can go back to Éamon de Valeras Ireland with a small island nation cut off in the main from the outside influences of Britain and mainland Europe ,the Catholic Church had a monopoly on the religious teaching of the population .

    They more than any other organisation hate this frontier of technology we have had for many years now, were people speak freely and openly about these wrongs , unlike previous decades were they would be shot down in droves for speaking out and with that culture of indifference ,it allowed the deceit of lies and abuse to continue .

    There are the people who left the RCC long before the sex scandals ever came to surface which when brought out into the open only helped reinforce their reason for doing so. The Catholic Church and it's teachings had already become irrelevant for many people simply because to use an old saying '' you can fool some of the people some of the time but you cant fool all of the people all of the time '' .


  • #887
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Min wrote: »
    I. (a) They were inspectors so why did they tell when they were going to inspect, it seems to have defeated the purpose of being an inspector given the people would be there so an appointment was hardly necessary. (b) Also corporal punishment was allowed by the state - not all the abuse was sexual some of it was physical and one could argue the state allowed the physical abuse via corporal punsihment.

    1 (a) As of the time that it was, it was generally accepted that politeness was the order of the day and NO ONE was allowed just turn up at the front doors of a religious order and storm in, demanding to see a place and question all en-sundry.
    ...Such was the power and fear of the church in its day!

    1 (b) True - and has there been any claims for such activity? If so (and I've yet to hear of any) the state would/will be paying out for such activity.
    Min wrote: »
    2. You are talking about pay, what about the people who did the abuse, how many have the state brought before the courts, it is in the independent that it is no one.
    Maybe you should ask that question to those in authority?
    Min wrote: »
    3. No not a seprate issue, a deal with the state is a binding agreement, Ruairi can talk till he leaves office but he has no power to make anyone pay more than what was agreed.
    I know nothing of your situation with the government so any comment I would possibly make, could be totally wrong - besides nothing to do with the religious orgs of this state and the subject of this thread.
    Min wrote: »
    4. The state is on their side, putting files in regards to cases in the Cloyne report into drawers and not being dealt with, prosecuting no one over the Ryan report, HSE and gardai failing in the Ferns report, same in Dublin.
    If the state is on their side then I don't know what to say, the state is all talk and ants to bring in something which has failed elsewhere plus a child protection policy which is difficult to implement.
    Yeah the state is on their side, tell that to the 8 children who were abused up to 2009 by their mother with the HSE knowing for 9 years but didn't do anything as they were travellers.
    I do not trust the state is on anyone's side, it continuously fails victims of abuse.

    Until an inquiry is held as to the failures of the state in many separate areas, everything else is speculation as to why failures happened.
    In the meantime those that did the physical abuse on the side of the religious orgs - and there is no doubt that they did a hell of a lot more over decades if your trying to compare them to what the state might have done - are refusing to cough up even 50% of what they should be paying for.

    How sick and evil even to this day, is that!
    As the saying goes, I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire!


  • #888
    jayteecork
    Site Banned Posts: 5,676 ✭✭✭jayteecork


    Doesn't this open many a can of worms?

    for example will anything said in doctor's or shrink's offices now be admissable in court?


  • #889
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,670 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    jayteecork wrote: »
    Doesn't this open many a can of worms?

    for example will anything said in doctor's or shrink's offices now be admissable in court?

    It already is if I'm not mistaken? and rightly so....


  • #890
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Suzie Sue wrote: »
    These are the questions WE SHOULD ALL be asking the state.
    A lot already have - in the meantime till answers are provided, the victims should be looked after - if those responsible would even bother their ass to do so!
    ...But they are not - and now they have the sickening balls to say that they will even refuse to turn up at a meeting to discuss the matter!

    Their words and actions really shows still the utter contempt they have for victims and the people of Ireland (THATS YOU AND I) who are left to cough up state money instead of them doing it!


  • #891
    NTMK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭NTMK


    jayteecork wrote: »
    Doesn't this open many a can of worms?

    for example will anything said in doctor's or shrink's offices now be admissable in court?

    AFAIK the law currently is that they are only required to report if children are involved


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  • #892
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,670 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    NTMK wrote: »
    AFAIK the law currently is that they are only required to report if children are involved

    I think they have to report if a patient declares the intent or admits to commiting a crime no?


  • #893
    Suzie Sue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭Suzie Sue


    Biggins wrote: »
    A lot already have - in the meantime till answers are provided, the victims should be looked after - if those responsible would even bother their ass to do so!
    ...But they are not - and now they have the sickening balls to say that they will even refuse to turn up at a meeting to discuss the matter!

    Their words and actions really shows still the utter contempt they have for victims and the people of Ireland (THATS YOU AND I) who are left to cough up state money instead of them doing it!

    Money ? The victims need JUSTICE, Justice delayed is justice denied.
    The state have the proof and evidence from the reports, when are we going to see the state administer some JUSTICE


  • #894
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,190 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    jayteecork wrote: »
    Doesn't this open many a can of worms?
    The worms left the cans long ago and they aren't going back in .


  • #895
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    I think they have to report if a patient declares the intent or admits to commiting a crime no?

    omg people will stop going to doctors so, it's unworkable..will the gardai bug their offices. Kiddie fiddlers will go to doctors in the UK, etc etc


  • #896
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Suzie Sue wrote: »
    Money ? The victims need JUSTICE, Justice delayed is justice denied.
    The state have the proof and evidence from the reports, when are we going to see the state administer some JUSTICE
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73352620&postcount=884


  • #897
    Suzie Sue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭Suzie Sue


    Biggins wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73352620&postcount=884

    LOL - Avoiding the issue, just like the state. You are silly !


  • #898
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Suzie Sue wrote: »
    LOL - Avoiding the issue, just like the state. You are silly !
    No, you are asking a question on a random internet forum.
    If your really that concerned ask a TD or someone who will better give you a more (hopefully) honest and accurate answer.


  • #899
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    irishdude11 wrote: »

    But what about the rights of everyone in the country not to have their children educated by an organisation that has raped and abused generations of Irish children, and covered it up?

    Anyone who does not want his child educated in a school controlled by the Catholic Church should not send his child to a school owned by the Catholic Church. It is not exactly rocket science.


  • #900
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    irishdude11 wrote: »

    The RCC is one sick, twisted, disgusting f*cking cult. Hopefully this Cloyne report, and that fact that we have a non-FF govnmt, will finally see this country tell the church to go and get f*cked once and for all and leave us in peace. Unfortunately they are so deeply embedded in society I reckon it will take another couple of these reports to finally kill them off.

    Another reason why Catholics must keep control over the education of their children. Juat imagine a bigot like this being in control over defenceless Catholic children. Just imagine his anti-Catholic children in the same classroom as the children of Catholics. Any person who regards the Catholic church as a "sick, twisted, disgusting cult is not a fit person to have power over Catholic.


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  • #901
    smokingman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,800 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Suzie Sue wrote: »
    You are silly !

    What's even sillier is setting up multiple accounts to push your views....


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