Catholic Church claims it is above the law

crucamim · 18-07-2011 01:52AM

dvpower wrote: »

Chase them into the sea?

Who is going to chase all those Catholics into the sea? Can you be sure that Catholics will not chase you and your ilk into the sea?

crucamim · 18-07-2011 01:57AM

Tayla wrote: »

No, I want to take away priests votes. If they are not going to uphold the law then why should they have a say in the running and laws of the country?

Catholics might want their priests to have the right to vote. Catholics have a right to resist anti-Catholic tyranny.

Some priests might defy the law and would be put in prison for the practice of their faith. And in prison they might go on hunger strike. But then, Irish Catholics would never go on hunger strike, or, if they did, would never see it through to the bitter end!!!!!

Are you really sure you want to go down that road? Or are you thinking with your heart rather than with your brain?

Tayla · 18-07-2011 02:02AM

crucamim wrote: »

Catholics might want their priests to have the right to vote. Catholics have a right to resist anti-Catholic tyranny.

Some priests might defy the law and would be put in prison for the practice of their faith. And in prison they might go on hunger strike. But then, Irish Catholics would never go on hunger strike, or, if they did, would never see it through to the bitter end!!!!!

Are you really sure you want to go down that road? Or are you thinking with your heart rather than with your brain?

Good point and yes i'm thinking with my heart rather than my brain but Ideally I would love to get rid of any group that would resist calls for them to report child molesters, in particular a group who has tried so hard in the past to cover up and protect child molesters. I would love to get any such group out of the country but that would be impossible.

I hate the catholic church, I really absolutely hate it with a passion, I was never religious but lately felt like i'm at an age where I want to believe in something but the Catholic church is sickening and then there is this on top of all the abuse they have inflicted on people, why do they bother with their fake apologies and then say that their confessional seal is more important than protecting children? They are losing believers by the day but won't move with the times.

It's a slap in the face for the victims of the Catholic church and indeed any victim of child molesters.

crucamim · 18-07-2011 02:03AM

Bambi wrote: »

have the protestant churches raped any kids or told their clergy to break the law?

The Protestant Churches have not raped any children. Protestant clergy have.

zenno · 18-07-2011 02:09AM

all this stuff about catholic and describing a people because they believe in a different god across the world is bull****.

I was brought up with being told to go to church and all that but when I got older I realized that I had understanding and good communication with all people regardless off their religion.

WTF is the matter with people these days ? god does not sit in a god damn church, and you cannot reach him/her/it/or whatever god is sitting in a disgraced stonemasonary building made of crumbling rock and old mortar.

I totally respect peoples beliefs and religious beliefs but why do so many people think that connecting to god can be accomplished by sitting in a concrete building with plastic statues and candle wax.

if there is such thing as reincarnation of the human soul then I would love to come back in 100 years to see how the criminal church organization fares.

crucamim · 18-07-2011 02:14AM

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's worse, check out the religion in schools thread for further confirmation of their paranoid delusions.

Can you prove that I am paranoid?

crucamim · 18-07-2011 02:16AM

Mickeroo wrote: »

You should send your children to self defense classes if they're as defenceless as you make out.

Keeping them out of the clutches of people like you is a more effective protection.

Pace2008 · 18-07-2011 02:18AM

crucamim wrote: »

Can you prove that I am paranoid?

This pretty much does it:

crucamim wrote: »

Can you prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that you would not:-

a) beat up defenceless Catholic children,
b) insult defenceless Catholic children,
c) encourage or allow anti-Catholic pupils to beat up Catholic children,
d) encourage or permit anti-Catholic pupils to insult Catholic children,
e) discriminate against Catholic children in disciplinary matters,
f) encourage other teachers to do any of the above,
g) cover-up other teachers bullying Catholic children?

crucamim · 18-07-2011 02:22AM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Are you serious?

There are many less ridiculous reasons for wishing to keep schools founded by religious orders running with a religious ethos. There's no need to resort to basing your opinion on such ridiculous reasons.

How do you know that my reasons are ridiculous?

crucamim · 18-07-2011 02:23AM

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Does anti catholic propaganda just include taking heed of and commenting upon the latest child abuse scandal?

No.

crucamim · 18-07-2011 02:26AM

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

crucamim wrote: »

Can you prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that you would not:-

a) beat up defenceless Catholic children,
b) insult defenceless Catholic children,
c) encourage or allow anti-Catholic pupils to beat up Catholic children,
d) encourage or permit anti-Catholic pupils to insult Catholic children,
e) discriminate against Catholic children in disciplinary matters,
f) encourage other teachers to do any of the above,
g) cover-up other teachers bullying Catholic children?
[/QUOTEOnly if they have an identifying tattoo or a black arm band on.:D
But are you serious? You have posted the same trolling nonsense in another thread almost word for word.

But seeing as you dont mind the institution you are so fond of raping and beating your kids why would this be an issue if others did it?

Where did you get the impression that I do not mind people raping and beating children? Was that an attempt at a smear?

crucamim · 18-07-2011 02:30AM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Crucamin.

You think people who want to hurt catholic children shouldn't run schools. yes?????

Not true. I have no objection to such people in schools so long as no Catholic is compelled to send his child to such a school.

Mickeroo · 18-07-2011 02:34AM

crucamim wrote: »

Can you prove that I am paranoid?

I don't need to, all your posts including the following one did that for me.

crucamim wrote: »

Keeping them out of the clutches of people like you is a more effective protection.

Unless your children are in their twenties, female and a lot smarter than you then they won't be anywhere near my "clutches".

crucamim wrote: »

How do you know that my reasons are ridiculous?

Probably because's he's read your posts on here and used his brain to deduce that they're ridiculous.

crucamim wrote: »

No.

If that's the case you should apologise for calling so many people anti-catholic.

Suzie Sue · 18-07-2011 02:38AM

It won't bother most Catholics, they know its just another dunbelievables codology stunt by enda kenny.
99% of confessions are totally anonymous.

Priest "A man confessed a crime to me"
Guard "What did he look like ?"
Priest "I don't know, he was behind the screen"
Guard "Did you ask his name ?"
Priest "No, we never ask names, thats not the point of confession"
Guard "Would you be able to identify him again from his voice"
Priest "I would guess he was a middle aged male, but other than that I have no idea, I heard at least 40 confessions that afternoon"
Guard "Did he give you any particulars about the crime ?"
Priest "No, we don't ever ask details, that’s not the point of confession"
Guard "okay dokey, I've da snack box to get back to, will there be anything else Father, would you like a chicken wing ?"
Priest "No tanks, I've an excommunication hearing to attend"

charlemont · 18-07-2011 02:39AM

crucamim wrote: »

Keeping them out of the clutches of people like you is a more effective protection.

OMG Thats hilarious, But people like Mickeroo are everywhere, So should you keep them locked away in the house, Even the Catholic schools are only Catholic in name, Anyone with any sense knows that, Even the religion teachers know they have a cushy job because as far as I know religion isn't a state exam subject.

Heres a song break brought to you by the one and only Ice Cube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwQ54NsDIPI

crucamim · 18-07-2011 02:42AM

Tayla wrote: »

I hate the catholic church, I really absolutely hate it with a passion, /QUOTE]

Thank you for being so honest. And you are perfectly within your rights to hate what you think deserves to be hated.

I hope you will appreciate that Catholics have a right to refuse to allow their children to share a classroom or playground with the children of a person who hates their church. Or to let such a person teach their dear little children.

How do you intend to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that a person confessed (in the confessional) to having sexually abused a child? When such a confession is made, is it likely that any witnesses would be present?

A rumpus about nothing - probably an attempt by members of the government to divert attention from broken promises about Roscommon hospital and lies told about a second referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon.

crucamim · 18-07-2011 02:46AM

charlemont wrote: »

OMG Thats hilarious, But people like Mickeroo are everywhere,

Very true. Our enemies are everywhere. They are out to get us.

Mickeroo · 18-07-2011 02:49AM

crucamim wrote: »

Can you prove that I am paranoid?

crucamim wrote: »

Very true. Our enemies are everywhere. They are out to get us.

:rolleyes:

Tayla · 18-07-2011 03:36AM

crucamim wrote: »

How do you intend to prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that a person confessed (in the confessional) to having sexually abused a child? When such a confession is made, is it likely that any witnesses would be present?

well we all know that priests don't have it in them to do the right thing soIf such a rule were to be enforced do I think any priest would ever get prosecuted for not following it? No I don't.

A paedophile might tell the guards that he confessed to the priest so if a priest wants to lie under oath then that's up to himself to deal with....but the God I believe in wouldn't want people lying to save paedophiles.

It's not that they won't go to the guards (because we all know that they won't)....but it's the fact that they think they are above the law, they think that their seal is more important than a childs safety.

How can people go to mass or even want to be near a priest knowing that if that priest knew that your child was being abused then they would say nothing?

[/QUOTE]

virmilitaris · 18-07-2011 04:02AM

philologos wrote: »

How is this law enforceable? It essentially is making something a thought crime. As was mentioned on the radio as well, how can it be ensured that people know everything they need to know to make a report from a confession given that many confessional boxes obscure the view between the priest and the penitent.

Would you agree that thought crime is a bad thing ?

Akrasia · 18-07-2011 08:14AM

bnt wrote: »

Totally pointless discussion, if you ask me. Why? Because it won't change anything. What are the possible outcomes?
Confessional remains private. Crimes confessed there are not reported. Justice is not served.

Confessional no longer private. Crimes confessed there are reported. People stop confessing to crimes in confessionals. Justice is not served.

The problem, as I see it, is this assumption that people go in to a confessional and tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. How is that conceptually different from blurting something out to your friends at the pub after ten pints? The fact that someone says something is not proof that a crime has been committed: a judge or jury makes a decision based on the evidence, not just on something you said.

You've missed something here. Currently, the priest feels he has a legal and moral duty to keep all confessions a secret and the law supports him on this, so if a priest is faced with the dilemma of whether he should report a parishoner, or keep it a secret, he can rationalise to himself that his duty is to keep it a secret, if he reports the crime, in the eyes of the church and the law, he has breached convention, he would need to make a very strong principled stand to report such a crime to the police and would face harsh sanctions from his church for doing so

However, if the law is changed stating that a priest has to report confessions of serious crimes, especially child abuse, then suddenly the priest is legally obligated to report the crime, the church would be prevented from taking sanctions against him (at least in public) and the convention will have shifted so that, before, the priest would have had to take a principled decision to report the abuse, to having to take a principled decision to defend the abuser

It is a subtle yet dramatic change in the state's relationship to the church, from one that allows the church to decide itself how it should behave, to making the statement that the church has to obey the laws of the land the same as everyone else.

philologos · 18-07-2011 09:38AM

virmilitaris wrote: »

Would you agree that thought crime is a bad thing ?

Ultimately yes, in that it is so unenforceable. You are arrested on what people think you know which is just absurd. If there was an absolute assurance that people could know 100% what you know that would be an entirely different matter. Since they can't, they can't.

Akrasia: I'm still not too sure if such a case will ever come about for the aforementioned.

mackg · 18-07-2011 09:39AM

crucamim wrote: »

The Protestant Churches have not raped any children. Protestant clergy have.

Many recorded cases?

EDIT: googled it there apparently

ALL Protestant denominations - 838 Ministers

147 Baptist Ministers

251 "Bible" Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)

140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers

38 Lutheran Ministers

46 Methodist Ministers

19 Presbyterian Ministers

197 various Church Ministers

Tried for protestant abuse in Ireland but all I got was the Catholic stuff. Not sure about when the website was last updated etc. and it doesn't exactly look official but I'd say it can be taken as a ballpark figure.

Dyr · 18-07-2011 09:50AM

crucamim wrote: »

The Catholic Church controls only those schools which it owns. Likewise the Protestant Churches. Anyone who does not like how a Catholic schools is managed has a simple remedy - i.e. do not send his children to a Catholic school.

P.S. I was not aware that the Catholic Church controlling its own schools was an important factor in the sex abause scandal.

Not for long, Ruairi is a fairly commited athiest I'd say and he's coming to get your kiddies :eek:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0718/1224300885569.html

The Government is asking congregations named in the Ryan report to transfer ownership of schools to the State to help make up the shortfall.

Liam Byrne · 18-07-2011 10:43AM

crucamim wrote: »

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Define anti catholic please.

Anyone who hurts or tries to hurt Catholics or who approves of others doing so.

So the pope approves of having anti-catholic priests ? And you're happy that he still has authority over what you view as right and wrong ,

This is getting even more ridiculous by the minute.

BTW - have to welcome Min back and ask them if they've seen my reply to them and if they'd care to respond - it probably got swallowed up in all the off-topic sword swinging.

Amhran Nua · 18-07-2011 11:26AM

crucamim wrote: »

How would collecting Capital Gains Tax stop child rape? I suspect that you are trying to use the sexual abuse scandal to steal schools from Catholics and put defenceless Catholic children into the clutches of anti-Catholic teachers.

Okay, let me be quite clear.

The Republic, should it so desire, can apply a 105% do-not-rape-children tax on the Roman Catholic Church should it so please. You may be guaranteed that an institution unable to pay its agents will also be unable to rape children.

An institution that has wilfully protected child molesters is an institution whose tenure on this earth has to come to an end.

Knight who says Meh · 18-07-2011 11:34AM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Crucamin.
Please answer this post quoted above.. Not with one of your hysterical mass produced posts but in a proper fashion.
You think people who want to hurt catholic children shouldn't run schools. yes?
It has been proven that The Pope, Bishops and Clergy hurt catholic children

and.........????

Crucamin you big old legendary troll you!!!!!!:D

Are you going to address this question?

Min · 18-07-2011 11:37AM

Akrasia wrote: »

You've missed something here. Currently, the priest feels he has a legal and moral duty to keep all confessions a secret and the law supports him on this, so if a priest is faced with the dilemma of whether he should report a parishoner, or keep it a secret, he can rationalise to himself that his duty is to keep it a secret, if he reports the crime, in the eyes of the church and the law, he has breached convention, he would need to make a very strong principled stand to report such a crime to the police and would face harsh sanctions from his church for doing so

However, if the law is changed stating that a priest has to report confessions of serious crimes, especially child abuse, then suddenly the priest is legally obligated to report the crime, the church would be prevented from taking sanctions against him (at least in public) and the convention will have shifted so that, before, the priest would have had to take a principled decision to report the abuse, to having to take a principled decision to defend the abuser

It is a subtle yet dramatic change in the state's relationship to the church, from one that allows the church to decide itself how it should behave, to making the statement that the church has to obey the laws of the land the same as everyone else.

That changes nothing, the penalty for breaking any sacrament in the catholic church is excommunication, doesn't matter, the sacrament is someone repentant looking for their sins to be forgiven, the state has no role in this, it is between the person repenting and their God with the priest simply administering the sacrament as an apostle of Christ.

Mandatory reporting would make it even less likely for an abuser to confessor his or her sins, at least at present if the abuser did confess however unlikely this is, the priest would be in a position to talk tot he abuser and to tell him or her to tell the gardai if they are truly sorry for the offense they committed.

btw I wonder how many here go to confesion? The priest doesn't even see who is confessing and if I go it is to a priest that doesn't know me. The whole thing about the confessional is simply ridiculous.
An abuser could simply avoid mandatory reporting if they went to the UK and confession and confessed their sins there.
I would laugh at the government and their talk of the confessional if abuse was not such a serious subject.

crucamim · 18-07-2011 11:39AM

Tayla wrote: »

we all know that priests don't have it in them to do the right thing soIf such a rule were to be enforced do I think any priest would ever get prosecuted for not following it? No I don't

In that case, why do you want such a law to be made? Is it to give offense to Catholics?

Min · 18-07-2011 11:39AM

zenno wrote: »

all this stuff about catholic and describing a people because they believe in a different god across the world is bull****.

I was brought up with being told to go to church and all that but when I got older I realized that I had understanding and good communication with all people regardless off their religion.

WTF is the matter with people these days ? god does not sit in a god damn church, and you cannot reach him/her/it/or whatever god is sitting in a disgraced stonemasonary building made of crumbling rock and old mortar.

I totally respect peoples beliefs and religious beliefs but why do so many people think that connecting to god can be accomplished by sitting in a concrete building with plastic statues and candle wax.

if there is such thing as reincarnation of the human soul then I would love to come back in 100 years to see how the criminal church organization fares.

One goes to mass to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist, being a catholic is a 24/7 thing.

Catholic Church claims it is above the law

Comments