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College: Should taxpayers continue to foot the bill?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,838 ✭✭✭theboss80


    After my leaving cert results i didnt bother going to college because no college would of accepted me without maths. .
    Very lazy debating. You dont have a clue what i do for a living or if i even wanted to go to college. Very disappointing and lazy.

    And colleges are private. They are closed to a large section of the public. .

    So its not that you didn't bother its more like you couldn't tbf.

    Anybody over the age of 23 is entitled to attend college as a mature student, and anybody under that age should do enough to pass their LC with the subjects needed to attend their chosen course.

    So are you saying that somebody who for instance failed maths should be accepted into an engineering course regardless? Generally the "people they see suitable" are the ones who are able for they course as proven by their ability to get the required marks in their LC.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭deisedave


    mackeire wrote: »
    when they finish college and have a good job, they'll be paying for your dole so it works both ways.

    What about when they finish college and move to Australia:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    Very lazy debating. You dont have a clue what i do for a living or if i even wanted to go to college. Very disappointing and lazy.

    And colleges are private. They are closed to a large section of the public. They are like a country club or a members club. They are open to people they see suitable to be a student to their college. I fully agree and back them with their stance as well but they shouldnt be funded by the public if they do have that stance. The only people who should pay for their private educations should be the people who availed of their services, who shall pay with their future earnings.

    Should hospitals be private on the basis that healthy people can't avail of them? Should we have no publicly funded emergency services as they only allow entry into the professions to those who meet certain criteria?

    The universities and colleges in this country aren't closed to the public. Anyone who meets the requirements for entry is allowed to become a student, much as anyone who meets the requirements for a driving licence is allowed to operate a car. A country club or members' club typically requires that new members be nominated by existing ones; there's no comparable requirement in the case of colleges.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,156 ✭✭✭srsly78


    Mature students don't need points, but they still must meet basic course requirements. This means B+ in honours physics+maths for a certain Theoretical Physics course for example.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    theboss80 wrote: »
    So its not that you didn't bother its more like you couldn't tbf.

    Anybody over the age of 23 is entitled to attend college as a mature student, and anybody under that age should do enough to pass their LC with the subjects needed to attend their chosen course.

    Well i hardly sat in my maths exam "not bothering" :pac: I only sat the leaving cert to keep people happy. I knew i was going to fail maths a good year before my leaving cert so there was no point in being bothered to even think of college.
    theboss80 wrote: »
    So are you saying that somebody who for instance failed maths should be accepted into an engineering course regardless? Generally the "people they see suitable" are the ones who are able for they course as proven by their ability to get the required marks in their LC.

    Read my post again re college admittance policies :rolleyes:
    I fully agree and back them with their stance as well but they shouldnt be funded by the public if they do have that stance.

    READ the above quote. I fully agree with how colleges admit students BUT with that stance they should be deemed as private education. Im not whinging that i wouldnt of got into a college but if they want to be considered public education they have to get rid of it which i believe they shouldnt. College's are private institutions but are treated like public institutions which i believe is wrong. The solution i put forward to address this is that graduates should have a tax for a limited period to pay off their private education fee's.

    Please dont ask any other questions that ive gone over already. I think you just came into the thread for an argument.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,816 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    deisedave wrote: »
    What about when they finish college and move to Australia:D

    Looks like most of the brightest normally left and the less than bright became our politicans and bankers and senior civil servants.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Should hospitals be private on the basis that healthy people can't avail of them? Should we have no publicly funded emergency services as they only allow entry into the professions to those who meet certain criteria?

    The universities and colleges in this country aren't closed to the public. Anyone who meets the requirements for entry is allowed to become a student, much as anyone who meets the requirements for a driving licence is allowed to operate a car. A country club or members' club typically requires that new members be nominated by existing ones; there's no comparable requirement in the case of colleges.

    Read my previous post about my views on the health system.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    AG2R wrote: »
    You weren't complaining about the Tax payer paying when you were attending college

    That's a pretty stupid comment to make. I'm in college and I think a graduate tax would be a good idea. Even still, even if someone didn't hold that opinion just because they're a college student - that wouldn't mean that it's wrong.

    Sure it benefits the country to have a well educated population, but it also benefits the people who are educated. I don't see why paying back some/all of your tuition fees when you are able to afford it would be unreasonable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,838 ✭✭✭theboss80



    Please dont ask any other questions that ive gone over already. I think you just came into the thread for an argument.

    No I didn't actually, i simply disagree with your viewpoint and was offering a counter opinion.

    One of a person who never had any intention of attending college but when circumstances changed with the lack of jobs for my profession found that his previous academic qualifications afforded him a chance to attend college.And even if my LC wasn't good enough I would still have been able to attend college due to mature student application.

    You don't have to agree but all colleges are public in Ireland and if you have done the work in secondary school you are free to apply for anyone of them and will be accepted if your results are good enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭2 stroke


    I left college after 1 year because I could no longer afford to attend. Since then, I have worked more than 25 years, and I have paid taxes of upto 65% of my income, which supported other peoples kids through college. My taxes have put the sons of bankers, farmers, teachers and politicians through college. Now all my own neices and nephews are between junior cert and college. Yes I would like my taxes to support them through college.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    I voted yes. I'm doing my Leaving Cert this year. If I've to pay for college, there's no way I'll be able to afford it. I'll be on the dole before I'm 19, when I've the brains (allegedly) to become a lawyer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭Bombbastic22


    Interesting question.

    It used to be a big thing to have a degree and now every Tom, Dick and Harry has one.

    I have to say, going to University was an absolute doddle compared to Leaving Cert or even Junior Cert, although it was merely a modest Arts degree I did.

    It's funny, because recently I was talking to a politics lecturer I used to have and he said the quality of what constitutes a pass paper has gone through the floor, even since I was there. He said "All you have to do is write three pages of rubbish and you'll pass".

    It seems to me, as far as going to college in Galway is concerned anyway, that there seems to be a lot more buildings and I can only assume that that means that there are a lot more places and a lot more students than there used to be. I can't help but wonder if this is all a cute way of sucking up money from the government and if in fact it might be bad for business to fail students. After all, if students don't pass exams, they won't get into the next year and the college will have a cash deficit as they won't get any grant money for them. I'm open to being corrected on this but it does seem laudable and a lecturer I had a pint with seemed to concur.

    I not only think the above could be a very real possibility but I also think when you have a large wave of graduates it dilutes the value of any individual degree. It's almost like an educational inflation whereby there is so many people with so much of it, that the value of it is almost worthless.

    On the one hand, it is a great idea to give people a stab at education who wouldn't otherwise have been able to afford it (I would have fallen into that category but if I had had to, I could have paid for it as I worked all the way through college anyway - the grant I seem to recall was about £200 per term - which was a pittance) and on the other, the system is open to abuse by money hungry colleges and also students who give courses less than 100% effort because they got the place too easily (I would have probably fallen into this category too :-) )- whereas if they had to earn the money to pay for courses they might appreciate them more and work harder and then maybe you wouldn't hear of things like this http://sbpost.ie/news/googles-search-fails-to-find-enough-suitable-irish-graduates-57276.html

    Interesting subject, with a lot of angles.............


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭deisedave


    CTYIgirl wrote: »
    I voted yes. I'm doing my Leaving Cert this year. If I've to pay for college, there's no way I'll be able to afford it. I'll be on the dole before I'm 19, when I've the brains (allegedly) to become a lawyer.

    Would you be ok with grants that you pay back once you start your career in law? and if not why so?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Being 'intelligent' does not mean that people should be indulged by the tax-payer. People need to understand this.

    An example? Yeah I got a good one.

    The large hadron collider (LHC).

    Talk about a tax-payer cluster fcuk. €7,600,000,000 (7.6bn) and for what? So some physicists can pretend they are working?

    Now there's little doubt these people are good at school and college but why the fuck should Joe Soap fund their stupid little games? If people were asked to fund the LHC would they?

    Fuck no.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    The large hadron collider (LHC).

    Talk about a tax-payer cluster fcuk. €7,600,000,000 (7.6bn) and for what? So some physicists can pretend they are working?

    Now there's little doubt these people are good at school and college but why the fuck should Joe Soap fund their stupid little games? If people were asked to fund the LHC would they?

    Fuck no.

    It's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    Well i hardly sat in my maths exam "not bothering" :pac: I only sat the leaving cert to keep people happy. I knew i was going to fail maths a good year before my leaving cert so there was no point in being bothered to even think of college.



    Read my post again re college admittance policies :rolleyes:



    READ the above quote. I fully agree with how colleges admit students BUT with that stance they should be deemed as private education. Im not whinging that i wouldnt of got into a college but if they want to be considered public education they have to get rid of it which i believe they shouldnt. College's are private institutions but are treated like public institutions which i believe is wrong. The solution i put forward to address this is that graduates should have a tax for a limited period to pay off their private education fee's.

    Please dont ask any other questions that ive gone over already. I think you just came into the thread for an argument.

    There are a number of colleges that take people without maths. Arts is the common example. "Arts is useless" has been done to death. If you get a good grade, It does show you have done the work. Even then, what is another year? I know someone who repeated the LC three times. For the record, I also know someone that has an almost savant ability in mental arithmetic. I would hardly call this woman "bad at maths" at this point just because of no LC. The LC is just an exam. Not a death sentance.

    If I had my way, I would remove the "send every LC student to college" mantra and invest more resources for Mature Students and FETAC entry. Most people really don't have a clue at 17/18/19.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    It's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

    It's nice how you can spell and all but your statement is meaningless.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    It's pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

    I'm going to do some research into this before making a judgement, but 7.6 billion is no short change.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Naikon wrote: »
    I'm going to do some research into this before making a judgement, but 7.6 billion is no short change.

    Here's the thing. If somebody said to someone else 'you know what pal - I'm gonna need a couple of days of your pay to fund this project where we build this big underground tunnel so we can smash particles into each other so people can yadda yadda yadda'

    Would people say 'okay, take my money for your doo daa'

    Fuck no.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭Haelium


    Being 'intelligent' does not mean that people should be indulged by the tax-payer. People need to understand this.

    An example? Yeah I got a good one.

    The large hadron collider (LHC).

    Talk about a tax-payer cluster fcuk. €7,600,000,000 (7.6bn) and for what? So some physicists can pretend they are working?

    Now there's little doubt these people are good at school and college but why the fuck should Joe Soap fund their stupid little games? If people were asked to fund the LHC would they?

    Fuck no.


    The LHC made ground breaking advances in physics. And those "Stupid little games" called experiments are what allow you to express stupid statements like this on the internet.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Brian Cox explains it simply...
    Finding out how the Universe works has never been a bad idea. In fact, it is the quest for a deeper understanding of nature that has given us everything we now take for granted in modern life. In an eloquent speech to the U.S. Department of Commerce in 1966, the theoretical physicist and then Phillips research director, H.G.B. Casimir, pointed out that virtually all of the great discoveries of the 19th and 20th centuries came from curiosity-driven research. The transistor emerged from the quantum theory of solids, not from a desire to build computers and televisions. Radio waves were not discovered by men in government-directed laboratories in order to connect the world together with better communication systems, but by Heinrich Hertz, a man whose overriding concern was for the beauty of physics. In his speech, Casimir went on to list many of the great innovations of the mid-20th century — from nuclear power to automobile starter motors — and point out that none of them came about as a result of some kind of pragmatic process of innovation. The light bulb, as the saying goes, was not invented through research and development on the candle.

    It should not be surprising that a deeper understanding of nature leads to great benefits for humankind. History speaks for itself. So why, then, could anyone question the “benefit” of projects like the LHC? I believe society undervalues exploration because searching for incremental solutions to pressing problems feels like a more pragmatic response to our problems than the quest for a revolution. It feels like we know enough — and we should focus our energies on better exploiting what we know. But, what is “enough”? If we ha applied this logic to particle physics over the past few decades, then we would have no World Wide Web (invented at CERN in 1990), no medical imaging scanners (the P in PET scanning stands for positron, an antimatter electron discovered in 1932 by observing cosmic rays) and no x-ray or chemotherapy treatments, all of which rely on miniature particle accelerators to create the short-lived radioisotopes required for medical use. The world would be a far less comfortable place because of the loss of medicine alone, and a poorer place for the loss to commerce.

    Most importantly, though, the world would be truly impoverished without all the fundamental knowledge we’ve gained. And the LHC has been built to answer some very profound questions about the nature of matter. We know it will discover something because we have deliberately built it to journey to uncharted waters, reaching energies in its particle collisions never before achieved in Earthly laboratories (although routinely achieved by nature elsewhere in the universe — prophets of doom take note, we are not powerful enough to endanger the world with this thing by a very long shot!)

    What might the LHC discover? Top of the list is the origin of mass in the universe. We strongly suspect that the particles that make up our bodies don’t just have mass — that is to say substance — but acquire it by some very subtle mechanism. The most well-established theory is the Higgs mechanism, which predicts the existence of one or more particles known as Higgs bosons that should be well within the reach of the LHC. We also hope to discover the nature of dark matter, which many theorists suspect consists of a new kind of subatomic particle that outnumbers the stuff that makes up the Earth, Sun and all the stars in the sky by a ratio of 5:1. More speculatively, we could discover extra dimensions in the universe, revealing in a Copernican revolution of unprecedented proportion, that we’re crawling around on a four-dimensional sheet in a perhaps infinitely larger multi-dimensional cosmos like ants on a piece of paper. And last, but hardly least, we could discover something so strange and, possibly, so useful that nobody has yet thought of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Haelium wrote: »
    The LHC made ground breaking advances in physics. And those "Stupid little games" called experiments are what allow you to express stupid statements like this on the internet.

    Utter rubbish. The vast majority of advances made in IT are totally private sector driven. If they were driven by the public sector we'd still be using pigeons to communicate.

    The 'advances' made by people playing with the LHC will be practically useless for the ordinary person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭Haelium


    Here's the thing. If somebody said to someone else 'you know what pal - I'm gonna need a couple of days of your pay to fund this project where we build this big underground tunnel so we can smash particles into each other so people can yadda yadda yadda'

    Would people say 'okay, take my money for your doo daa'

    Fuck no.


    And that is why the average Joe shouldn't have a say in such matters. The LHC involves perhaps one of the most important experiments of humanities existance. Just because you aren't curious about what caused the universe to exist doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

    And I will say it yet again: Without CERN, you wouldn't be able to post that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    deisedave wrote: »
    Would you be ok with grants that you pay back once you start your career in law? and if not why so?

    Yup. I'd be totally fine with paying it back, as long as I was able to support myself - ie, pay rent, eat, have electricity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    Being 'intelligent' does not mean that people should be indulged by the tax-payer. People need to understand this.

    An example? Yeah I got a good one.

    The large hadron collider (LHC).

    Talk about a tax-payer cluster fcuk. €7,600,000,000 (7.6bn) and for what? So some physicists can pretend they are working?

    Now there's little doubt these people are good at school and college but why the fuck should Joe Soap fund their stupid little games? If people were asked to fund the LHC would they?

    Fuck no.

    From what I understand of how it's funded through members and associate countries, Ireland is not paying. I wish we were, I would like my taxes to go to it, the LHC is among the the greatest examples of acheivement through collaboration we have.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Brian Cox explains it simply...
    Radio waves were not discovered by men in government-directed laboratories in order to connect the world together with better communication systems, but by Heinrich Hertz

    From your own post.

    Government directed i.e. tax payers money.

    The LHC is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    Haelium wrote: »
    Without CERN, you wouldn't be able to post that.

    The Intertubes has been around since the late 60's. I see http as nothing more than a high level abstraction. TCP/IP is far more important imo.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    From your own post.

    Government directed i.e. tax payers money.

    The LHC is.
    The point, you missed it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    I would like my taxes to go to it, the LHC is among the the greatest examples of acheivement through collaboration we have.

    I disagree entirely.

    I wouldn't like my taxes to go towards it.

    Do you think I should be forced to pay?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    The point, you missed it.

    No. You are missing the point not I.


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