College: Should taxpayers continue to foot the bill?

Naikon

Why should the taxpayer have fund everything from Nuclear Physics to Women studies at TIT College? Selective grants if you can prove your Academic Potential - Yes. Everyone else, go get a job. You can learn about Guitar History from a book.

Problem?

Possibly, but only if standards are drastically improved. And/or with more scholarships available.
I think we probably have too many people going to college with lower and lower standards and that needs to be corrected. I reckon if you tighten standards, fewer people will go and then funding will be less of a problem.

kippy

Id be in agreement with the two posts so far.
There are far too many "airy fairy" - "soft" courses out there now, that the chance of getting gainful employment through are slim to none. I don't believe the tax payer should fund these courses. Certain courses should remain funded - and a review is required to see where the jobs are and what graduates from what courses deliver them.

donutface

Investing in education is one of the most beneficial things you can do for a society. There might not be direct profits from Arts degrees but whats learnt can be very beneficial to a number of other areas.

More often than not, those who actually manages to spend the 3 years finishing the degree will head into the workforce and pay back their fees through taxes within a few years instead of lazing about in a council estate watching government sponsored Sky.

kippy

donutface wrote: »

Investing in education is one of the most beneficial things you can do for a society. There might not be direct profits from Arts degrees but whats learnt can be very beneficial to a number of other areas.

More often than not, those who actually manages to spend the 3 years finishing the degree will head into the workforce and pay back their fees through taxes within a few years instead of lazing about in a council estate watching government sponsored Sky.

I wasn't specificilly speaking about arts degrees. There are people who do three year arts degrees that go off and continue with their education and do very well out of it. I am aware of that.
However there are lots of other courses where you would have to question the relationship between it and gainful employment.

Naikon

donutface wrote: »

Investing in education

If you think education only comes in nicely integrated rigid course structures, you are fooling yourself. Self Education isn't promoted enough. This is why I like IT - You don't keep up, you're fcuked!

I tend not to associate my own educational goals with my college stamp of approval. College is merely a means to an end as far as I am concerned.

donutface

kippy wrote: »

I wasn't specificilly speaking about arts degrees. There are people who do three year arts degrees that go off and continue with their education and do very well out of it. I am aware of that.
However there are lots of other courses where you would have to question the relationship between it and gainful employment.

I know what you mean, but there are plenty of Arts modules with no gainful employment really other than teaching the said subject.

There are plenty of these useless courses being paid for by the tax payer. They do a great job at motivating people, self esteem and teaching people to think and analyze things.


Maybe we should be looking at how much is being spent per person in a particular course, and how long it takes on average for people with that particular qualification to pay it back through taxes, then adjust spending accordingly. Even if they get a job at McDonalds after it, its still better money spent than giving it away as dole for 3 years.


Edit:
Also its worth noting that even the most marketable courses can still cause a net loss. I'm doing a Computer Science degree, and could get a company to sponsor me for a H1B visa to the US without much effort. If I move to the US the Irish government wont see a cent of it being repaid until I come back (if I come back). When times are tough, the people with marketable degrees will be the first ones to leave. South Africa has lost 70% of its educated workforce over the last 15 years due to emigration. You can only imagine what an impact this has had on their economy.

Kevin Duffy

kippy wrote: »

Id be in agreement with the two posts so far.
There are far too many "airy fairy" - "soft" courses out there now, that the chance of getting gainful employment through are slim to none. I don't believe the tax payer should fund these courses. Certain courses should remain funded - and a review is required to see where the jobs are and what graduates from what courses deliver them.

kippy wrote: »

I wasn't specificilly speaking about arts degrees. There are people who do three year arts degrees that go off and continue with their education and do very well out of it. I am aware of that.
However there are lots of other courses where you would have to question the relationship between it and gainful employment.

Rather than just vague statements like that, perhaps you could offer some examples of courses that fit your description - funded by taxpayers, "airy fairy" and a questionable relationship with what you believe to be gainful employment.

Richard Hillman

After my leaving cert results i didnt bother going to college because no college would of accepted me without maths. I dont understand why i have to pay for places that wouldnt let me in. Its like being refused by a nightclub and being charged for some drinks drank by somebody else.

orourkeda

Naikon wrote: »

Why should the taxpayer have fund everything from Nuclear Physics to Women studies at TIT College? Selective grants if you can prove your Academic Potential - Yes. Everyone else, go get a job. You can learn about Guitar History from a book.

Problem?

Nice

jesus_thats_gre

Yes - with the condition that they graduate. If they dont finsh he course, any money spent would repaid over x number of years - of a portion anyway.

MagicMarker

Yes.

pragmatic1

An educated society benefits us all, both economically and socially.

AG2R

You weren't complaining about the Tax payer paying when you were attending college

theg81der

I think there should be a "graduate tax" instead. Some of my reasoning being so people who have a degree and want to go back and study again can.

They have proven ability to finish the course and statistically do better so are worth investment, as long as what they are intending to do is on the skills shortage list and not something which will most likely result in them rejoining the dole ques once they finish. Policy should also support courses on the skills shortage list to funnel people into those areas.

Most of these people can`t go back to college its just not affordable for them so we have people with great potencial sitting on the dole.

entropi

Ah this topic again...I was wondering when it would come back.

Princess Peach

Yes. I studied economics in college. A society with a high proportion of graduates works better. Educated people tend to work in higher paying jobs, pay higher taxes which in turn pay back their education, and pay for the social welfare and pensions of others.

Bringing in fees in Ireland would save the state money right now, but would be a disaster in the long run.

Kevin Duffy

Richard Hillman wrote: »

After my leaving cert results i didnt bother going to college because no college would of accepted me without maths. I dont understand why i have to pay for places that wouldnt let me in. Its like being refused by a nightclub and being charged for some drinks drank by somebody else.

Except that one is a commercial enterprise and one is centrally funded. If your logic was followed, no taxpayer would ever pay for anything that they didn't directly, personally benefit from.

CreepingDeath

I think the government should continue to fund courses which are required by industry, eg. science & technology, business, etc.

The arty courses which have no direct job at the end of them? No.

And maybe some sort of scheme to claw back the money if the student emigrates soon after qualification.

mackeire

when they finish college and have a good job, they'll be paying for your dole so it works both ways.

galwayrush

Yes, it would be terrible if thick kids from wealthy backgrounds could claim college places in place of more intelligent kids from poorer backgrounds.

Haelium

Richard Hillman wrote: »

After my leaving cert results i didnt bother going to college because no college would of accepted me without maths. I dont understand why i have to pay for places that wouldnt let me in. Its like being refused by a nightclub and being charged for some drinks drank by somebody else.

Actually, it's more like investing in the future, if you don't pay taxes for people to go to college, then 50 years down the line the economy is ****ed because nobody is able to do the jobs that require a 3rd level education.

Anyway, if you studied harder at maths, then you could have gone to college. But you didn't study hard enough, so those who did go instead.

Richard Hillman

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Except that one is a commercial enterprise and one is centrally funded. If your logic was followed, no taxpayer would ever pay for anything that they didn't directly, personally benefit from.

I dont think that as a tax payer i should pay for something that i have no access to. I know im never gonna drive a recently relaid road in kerry but im allowed to if i want. Why am i paying for what essentially are private colleges that wont allow me and a large chunk of the population be educated in? I dont mind paying for FAS* because its open to all to use but a collage is private education that pick and choose who they allow to study in them.







*im behind the idea of FAS and yes i am aware of the money they have being wasting

Gary4279

I think everyone that meet the requirements of a course should be allowed in, and have 1st year paid for. For 2nd, 3rd and 4th year only people with an average score of 65%+ should have theirs paid for, the rest should either pay themselves or jog on. Fairest way imo, pass degree aint worth **** nowadays.

7sr2z3fely84g5

Taxpayers need a say in what professors and lectures are being paid,savage amount in contrast of uk - http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/irish-academics-earning-up-to-double-uk-counterparts-1693272.html

Gary4279

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I dont think that as a tax payer i should pay for something that i have no access to. I know im never gonna drive a recently relaid road in kerry but im allowed to if i want. Why am i paying for what essentially are private colleges that wont allow me and a large chunk of the population be educated in? I dont mind paying for FAS* because its open to all to use but a collage is private education that pick and choose who they allow to study in them.







*im behind the idea of FAS and yes i am aware of the money they have being wasting

Well i'm against FAS, needs to be gotten rid off. WTF is the point in paying someone €200 a week to teach them how to use Microsoft Office. Stupid organisation, with 90% of its qualifications being useless and laughed at. It's only use is training people in trades that were once useful like carpentry ect...

MagicMarker

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I dont think that as a tax payer i should pay for something that i have no access to. I know im never gonna drive a recently relaid road in kerry but im allowed to if i want. Why am i paying for what essentially are private colleges that wont allow me and a large chunk of the population be educated in? I dont mind paying for FAS* because its open to all to use but a collage is private education that pick and choose who they allow to study in them.







*im behind the idea of FAS and yes i am aware of the money they have being wasting

You do have access, you haven't been told that you're never allowed to ever go to college. If you really want to then you can repeat maths next year or you can go as a mature student.

Gary4279

Gwen Cuddly Axe wrote: »

Taxpayers need a say in what professors and lectures are being paid,savage amount in contrast of uk - http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/irish-academics-earning-up-to-double-uk-counterparts-1693272.html

Look, at the end of the day, someone that is an expert in their field, that studied for more than ten years and has a wealth of experience deserves to be paid more than others.

If they didnt get paid highly then nobody would do the job, therefore there would be nobody to educate us in the sectors that are keeping this country alive...barely.

Don't moan about how you have no access to higher education, everybody does. Go to night school, re-sit the LC and then go to a part-time course in one of several IT's or University's that offer them.

twinQuins

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I dont think that as a tax payer i should pay for something that i have no access to. I know im never gonna drive a recently relaid road in kerry but im allowed to if i want.[...]

If you have a driver's license. Similarly you can avail of college if you have the right results.

Kevin Duffy

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I dont think that as a tax payer i should pay for something that i have no access to. I know im never gonna drive a recently relaid road in kerry but im allowed to if i want. Why am i paying for what essentially are private colleges that wont allow me and a large chunk of the population be educated in? I dont mind paying for FAS* because its open to all to use but a collage is private education that pick and choose who they allow to study in them.

*im behind the idea of FAS and yes i am aware of the money they have being wasting

You did have access to it, you just failed one of the academic qualifications for entry.
You comparison with the road doesn't quite work, you pay road tax which you wouldn't be paying if you didn't have a car to use on that road. Our taxes pay for other services we'll never use, but that's how a collaborative society works, we'll also use things that other tax payers don't.

The colleges you're describing as "private" aren't - the access is public, but with academic standards applied to ensure limited places are used by those most likely to use them well (yeh, I know, that doesn't always work out either, but it's the aim of entry requirements).

Gary4279

Gwen Cuddly Axe wrote: »

Taxpayers need a say in what professors and lectures are being paid,savage amount in contrast of uk - http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/irish-academics-earning-up-to-double-uk-counterparts-1693272.html

Also, you do get a say. You vote for our government. If you have a problem with it then go to your TD and strike it up, don't post on boards moaning about something you DO have control over. Believe it or not, you live in a democracy.

Richard Hillman

Gary4279 wrote: »

Well i'm against FAS, needs to be gotten rid off. WTF is the point in paying someone €200 a week to teach them how to use Microsoft Office. Stupid organisation, with 90% of its qualifications being useless and laughed at. It's only use is training people in trades that were once useful like carpentry ect...

I agree most of it is pointless but im behind the idea of the whole organisation. It just needs to be drastically revamped.

Haelium

Richard Hillman wrote: »

collage is private education that pick and choose who they allow to study in them.

Yeah, they pick the smart people, that way we don't waste time teaching the average punter about quantum mechanics.

We can't afford to give everybody a third level education, so we have a points system, it's far from perfect and there are big changes that should be made to it. But it's still a **** load better than a system where those born into wealth can go to college and the rest of us can go **** ourselves.

Ask yourself seriously, does everybody deserve to go to college?

MagicMarker

Gary4279 wrote: »

Also, you do get a say. You vote for our government. If you have a problem with it then go to your TD and strike it up, don't post on boards moaning about something you DO have control over. Believe it or not, you live in a democracy.

So if I go to my TD I can change the salaries of lecturers across the country? Do I have that ''control''?

Your view of a democratic society seems rather naive tbh.

Richard Hillman

Haelium wrote: »

Yeah, they pick the smart people, that way we don't waste time teaching the average punter about quantum mechanics.

We can't afford to give everybody a third level education, so we have a points system, it's far from perfect and there are big changes that should be made to it. But it's still a **** load better than a system where those born into wealth can go to college and the rest of us can go **** ourselves.

Ask yourself seriously, does everybody deserve to go to college?

Everyone deserves what they pay for.

Haelium

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Everyone deserves what they pay for.

Even if it means that the most intelligent in society end up being held back by a system that has to cater for everyone? The cost of paying for everybody to do a third level course would be massive, and if we made people pay for it themselves, then it would just be a case of who has rich parents and who doesn't.

And everybody does have a chance to go to college, so the majority of the time(Excluding dyslexics, etc), they either weren't smart enough, or didn't work hard enough.

Again, it's not a perfect system, but it's the best one available.

Richard Hillman

Haelium wrote: »

Even if it means that the most intelligent in society end up being held back by a system that has to cater for everyone? The cost of paying for everybody to do a third level course would be massive, and if we made people pay for it themselves, then it would just be a case of who has rich parents and who doesn't.

And everybody does have a chance to go to college, so the majority of the time(Excluding dyslexics, etc), they either weren't smart enough, or didn't work hard enough.

Again, it's not a perfect system, but it's the best one available.

I dont think that everyone should just automatically go to college but i feel that those who didnt shouldnt have to pay for others. College is an option people can take. I agree with the system of extra tax for those who did go to college after they graduated or dropped out to fund them.


Slightly disappointed that people are lording it over me because i wasnt able to go to college as well

Haelium

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I dont think that everyone should just automatically go to college but i feel that those who didnt shouldnt have to pay for others. College is an option people can take. I agree with the system of extra tax for those who did go to college after they graduated or dropped out to fund them.


Slightly disappointed that people are lording it over me because i wasnt able to go to college as well

People who went to college generally earn more, and thus pay more in taxes anyway.

Richard Hillman

Haelium wrote: »

People who went to college generally earn more, and thus pay more in taxes anyway.

Very true but i think an extra percentage should be added on to fund their past college education. Im also against a higher tax rate for high earners btw. I think everyone should be on a flat rate with collage graduates paying a slightly higher tax rate for a period of a few years after they graduated.

Haelium

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Very true but i think an extra percentage should be added on to fund their past college education. Im also against a higher tax rate for high earners btw. I think everyone should be on a flat rate with collage graduates paying a slightly higher tax rate for a period of a few years after they graduated.

Well then let's apply this to other services. I don't have a driving license, so why should I have to pay for roads to be build when I don't drive a car? What if I was illiterate, should I have to pay for public libraries?

Richard Hillman

Haelium wrote: »

Well then let's apply this to other services. I don't have a driving license, so why should I have to pay for roads to be build when I don't drive a car? What if I was illiterate, should I have to pay for public libraries?

Unless you have a helicopter, im sure you use the roads and footpaths in some shape or form and you can use any public road or footpath you want. Public libraries are open for anyone to use. You dont have to pass a test for the use of them. Plus libraries have much more than just reading material in them.

Haelium

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Unless you have a helicopter, im sure you use the roads and footpaths in some shape or form and you can use any public road or footpath you want. Public libraries are open for anyone to use. You dont have to pass a test for the use of them. Plus libraries have much more than just reading material in them.

But I don't need footpaths, why should I have to pay for them? And I have to pass a test to drive a car, it's unfair, only people who drive cars should have to pay for them.

Dionysus

Naikon wrote: »

Why should the taxpayer have fund everything from Nuclear Physics to Women studies at TIT College?

Guess who's finished a third-level education funded by the taxpayer...

Richard Hillman

Haelium wrote: »

But I don't need footpaths, why should I have to pay for them? And I have to pass a test to drive a car, it's unfair, only people who drive cars should have to pay for them.

How to you get around if you dont use footpaths or the roads. Do you use the bus or cycle or do you have a jetpack

Haelium

Richard Hillman wrote: »

How to you get around if you dont use footpaths or the roads. Do you use the bus or cycle or do you have a jetpack

I walk, footpaths are only there to keep people off the roads, which are reserved for drivers, who should have to pay extra tax for the roads under your logic. As clearly one can only benefit from something directly.

Logical Fallacy

Naikon wrote: »

If you think education only comes in nicely integrated rigid course structures, you are fooling yourself. Self Education isn't promoted enough. This is why I like IT - You don't keep up, you're fcuked!

I tend not to associate my own educational goals with my college stamp of approval. College is merely a means to an end as far as I am concerned.

Well right now it's a means to an end with a pretty heavy backing from the vast majority of employers.

To be honest, i realise you really dislike the education system at all levels but i think you are letting your stance blind you to the facts.

Richard Hillman

Haelium wrote: »

I walk, footpaths are only there to keep people off the roads, which are reserved for drivers, who should have to pay extra tax for the roads under your logic. As clearly one can only benefit from something directly.

They pay car tax.

Haelium

Richard Hillman wrote: »

They pay car tax.

And people who went to college pay income tax.

MagicMarker

Richard Hillman wrote: »

They pay car tax.

Do you think only funds raised from car tax pays for our roads?

Richard Hillman

Haelium wrote: »

And people who went to college pay income tax.

Everyone pays income tax for the general running of the country A college is a private organisation and when im in charge you will be paying a seperate tax to fund your privileged college educations

Wolfe Tone

I'm in college, its not a "soft course". If fees are brought back I'll have to drop out.