National Postcodes to be introduced

thirty-six dragons · 09-07-2011 07:33PM

Oh wow!, this has been an eyeopener. All over maths. I can't believe the personal attacks - truly someone needs to apologise.

I also can't believe the trotted out "tried and field tested" as compared to "random numbers". No one is proposing "random numbers". In fact a closed source code to me is strictly "random numbers" because none of us will be able to decipher the codes. I still don't get the whole fixation with "field testing". It sounds a bit bogus to me. If, in the aim to create a compressed GPS location code, I propose a mathematical formula which is compressed and just a bit lossey (+/- 6 metres; but perhaps you can correct me on that by example), then I can't figure out what all the field testing and chest-thumping in the world is going to do to scare someone away from that. If GPS coordinates are incorrect that is not the remit of the proposed code. Everything is only as accurate as its input - in fact, generating a loc8code for my house relies on OSI data which is completely wrong (the mapped buildings don't exist) - you will end up metres away - in my barn - but I think the firemen will be able to see 10 metres!

And no one is proposing an "ian" code. Don't let it trouble you - carry on with your own code and stop talking to me. My name, or job, should not have come into this discussion at all. I hope this personal interest in me doesn't extend beyond this thread - because it's getting a bit creepy.

I regret having to hear lectures about intellectual property. In my example I could quite legally include the GPS coordinates and openpostcodes for every mountain peak in the country and indeed link to Google Maps or to the OSI site. This is allowed. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, it would not be free for a loc8code list.

I also regret the confusion people have between the needs of the postoffice, the needs of people to be able to give themselves a useless postcode just for status "Dublin 4" and a location code - there is no better organising geolocation principle than actual coordinates. I don't get the fixation with rivers. Rivers, walls, roads, hey, that's your navigation problem - not a location problem. Here I have to agree with my learned friend, the fan of the loc8code, fixing the addressing for the country is a whole nudder problem. Something for someone else to work on. But at present my address is about as useful as pointing East from 20 km away. I could give you my full address and you will still never find me. In fact you will go in the wrong direction and may even try the wrong county. A geolocation code answers a hell of a lot of needs in a country which is largely based on surnames and townlands - not streets and apartment numbers like in France or Germany. What's my street?! Answer: I don't live on one. I live in the middle of farmland. In a townland (which people spell in about 5 different ways). 6kms from the town that is my address. 20kms from the town most people around here use as their postal address.

For those interested in exploring an opensource code further; and perhaps doing a bit of field-testing themselves. There's a proof of concept spreadsheet at http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode and Facebook page of the same name if people want to get in touch and work further.

You can play with a wiki-spreadsheet at http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode without downloading (but have no fear, someone will doubtless go in there and deface it fairly quickly).

thirty-six dragons · 10-07-2011 01:23AM

A series of test locations around Ireland, testing the openpostcode, are here: http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode/testing

david4791 · 10-07-2011 06:21AM

What is the current position on post codes?

Wild Bill · 10-07-2011 08:39PM

david4791 wrote: »

What is the current position on post codes?

Good question. When are they being introduced?

recedite · 10-07-2011 09:30PM

When Pat Rabbite gets up off his rabbithole.

jack presley · 10-07-2011 09:47PM

Postcodes and Integrated ticketing on public transport. Things which have been planned for years but we still haven't seen.

yuloni · 10-07-2011 09:47PM

This post has been deleted.

thirty-six dragons · 13-07-2011 09:59PM

A technical specification, worked examples, and test data is all now available at http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode

"The OpenPostcode is an opensource proposal for a compressed geolocation postcode for Ireland. It is scaled to a version of the Irish Grid, from 51.3N 11W to 55.7N 5W. Its format can be described as four characters of base-28 for "locality" (2 latitude and 2 longitude), a separator, two characters of base-28 of more precise "location" (1 latitude and 1 longitude), and one character of base-28 converted from two base-5 digits for extra precision, a further separator, and a base-33 checksum character calculated as the equivalent of modulus 33 of the sum of an ordered weighting of values from positions 1 to 7. The 7 character locality-location code is then further translated by skipping the numbers 0 and 1, the vowels "AEIOU" and the letter "S". The checksum is translated by skipping only "I", "O", and "S".

It is accurate to +/- 0.000027334 degrees longitude, approximately +/- 1.813831565m (at the origin latitude 53.5) and +/- 0.000020045 degrees latitude, approximately +/- 2.230881173m. Each postcode defines a box about 3.6m x 4.5m, accurate to +/-1.8 and +/-2.2m at 53.5N with a maximum diagonal distance calculated at 2.9m at 51.3N."

http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode/calculations/technical-specifi

conolan · 13-07-2011 10:16PM

This is another example of a really great technical solution. The problem is the humans who have to understand and remember it.
I proposed a slightly less accurate system that has codes that started with logical letters for cities and major towns. eg. Tullamore start with T2, Athlone A2 and so on.
See icode6.com.

antoinolachtnai · 13-07-2011 10:18PM

You have the basics there.

One clarification. You cannot simply take a map coordinate from an OSi or Google map or satellite photo and use it to create a postcode. You are creating a derivative work. Condition 2(b) of the Google Maps terms of service forbids the use of Google Maps to create derivative works. Any common commercial map licence or satellite imagery licence will contain a similar restriction.

If you go out and survey yourself that is a different matter.

conolan · 13-07-2011 10:29PM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You cannot simply take a map coordinate from an OSi or Google map or satellite photo and use it to create a postcode.

Indeed, but what I'm advocating is an approach that is different from others. The solution would have to be worked out properly and legally.

antoinolachtnai · 13-07-2011 10:48PM

Yes, for sure. And it is good work. You could certainly make the code more efficient by reusing some of the Irish Sea, as you mention.

As for the alternative to what you call a geolocation code - I don't think the UK would really be the model -.

The cheap/free way to develop an alternative code would be to number all the Small Areas. That would give you a code that would fit with existing administrative boundaries (electoral division, town, county, etc.) and bring you down to the street segment level in 6 digits. (5 digits for the small area, and a further digit for the street segment.) A further two digits would bring you down to the house level.

This would be an all-numeric code, so less vulnerable to verbal and visual transcription errors. It would also group buildings into sensible, coherent groups.

It might superficially resemble the organization of the UK code, but it would really not be the same at all in terms of how it is constructed and how it would be managed.

Again, this can be done for a very low cost, because the small areas already exist (and were recently used for the first time for the census.)

Aard · 13-07-2011 10:50PM

^
What's a "Small Area"? Is it like a DED or LEA?

antoinolachtnai · 13-07-2011 10:59PM

Yes, it is smaller than a DED (now called an 'ED').

Here's a summary from the product page on OSi

http://www.osi.ie/en/alist/products-overview.aspx?article=c86d160d-cc84-4951-8517-0ee457e2175a

and here's a presentation which has some good basic information about the small areas.

http://www.inispho.org/files/file/Small%20Areas%20in%20the%20Republic%20of%20Ireland%20by%20M%20Charlton_NCG_NUIM(1).pdf

The slide about half-way through with the yellow background will give you an idea of how big the SA's are in comparison to EDs.

thirty-six dragons · 13-07-2011 11:28PM

Just to clarify - nowhere in the OpenPostcode specification (the best one in the country) does it mention relying on Google Maps or OSI or whatever. It is open. I have many many ways of finding out my coordinates.

As for a postcode that is A2 for Athlone or whatever, well that assumes the language is only English and certainly isn't fine enough to lead the firemen to my door. Read the facts on http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode and the various explanations before knocking it.

It is over twice as good as the other geolocation codes and it is free (if you don't want a geolocation code - fine, don't; An Post use one for letter sorting - the only problem is, they don't let the rest of the world know what it is).

MOSSAD · 13-07-2011 11:32PM

May I ask a simple question? What is the cheapest post code system that could be developed for the Irish postal service, assuming all the data to bring it together is out there for free, like Linux?

thirty-six dragons · 13-07-2011 11:38PM

At the risk of sounding sarcastic OpenPostcode: http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode

It is ready. It is free. The post office claim to have the coordinates of every address - it can be converted instantly. Job done. No need for any reports, commissions, contracts, managers - nothing.

But this is Ireland so I suppose we'll have to pay money we don't have for someone to look into a solution for hiring someone to hire someone to make a code that only they own and loan out to us all for a fee.

conolan · 13-07-2011 11:42PM

iantheteacher wrote: »

As for a postcode that is A2 for Athlone or whatever, well that assumes the language is only English and certainly isn't fine enough to lead the firemen to my door.

The icode6 system is accurate enough to lead the fireman to the door. See this example from Athlone.

pardon my amateur quick graphics

antoinolachtnai · 13-07-2011 11:50PM

iantheteacher wrote: »

At the risk of sounding sarcastic OpenPostcode: http://tinyurl.com/openpostcode

It is ready. It is free. The post office claim to have the coordinates of every address - it can be converted instantly. Job done. No need for any reports, commissions, contracts, managers - nothing.

Equally the post office database will soon contain a small area field for every address in the country. It could equally well be used to produce an excellent 5-digit code for a very low cost and very quickly indeed.

thirty-six dragons · 13-07-2011 11:52PM

I like the sound of this icode and this post office code - are they free?

thirty-six dragons · 15-07-2011 11:35AM

If you were parachuted in to target the top of the Wellington Obelisk you would still hit the top if you calculated your coordinates from its OpenPostcode H3RX-4PJ. (not that I suggest anyone should try landing from a height on the Wellington Obelisk - it would hurt).

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=215366462544581397008.0004a7901f54254ea8811&msa=0&ll=53.349017,-6.303079&spn=0.000468,0.001206

Wild Bill · 15-07-2011 07:11PM

Could we buy personalised postcodes - like number plates?

I'd like WILDB007.

garydubh · 16-07-2011 10:18AM

iantheteacher wrote: »

At the risk of sounding sarcastic OpenPostcode:
It is ready. It is free. The post office claim to have the coordinates of every address - it can be converted instantly. Job done. No need for any reports, commissions, contracts, managers - nothing.

But this is Ireland so I suppose we'll have to pay money we don't have for someone to look into a solution for hiring someone to hire someone to make a code that only they own and loan out to us all for a fee.

So you have developed a code that is:
1. 8 Chartacters
2. Uses a Dash to seperate elements
3. Uses a checksum
4. Has "Localities"

sounds very like a Loc8 Code to me! http://www.loc8code.com/help

except that a Loc8 Code has rules which dictate:

1. Not a random collection of characters
2. Always Alphanumeric
3. Concatenated with nested Areas, Zones and Localities
4. Certain characters are required in certain positions
5. confusion between characters and their order is removed by the purposly designed checker character
6. The Code itself and Zones and Localities have inherent adjacency - i.e. one can be visually noted to be adjacent to another
7. Because of the characteristics above and others - a Loc8 code can be both visually and by software positively identified as a Loc8 Code and not just a random collection of characters which could be a mispelled address, a reference number or even a telephone number.
8. Loc8 Codes can only be generated from controlled and licensed sources so the accuracy is controlled and also the related quality. Only in this way could anyone start to depend on the code - codes ramdonly generated from multiple sources of multiple qualities may take you to the wrong place - therefore could not be relied upon.
9. Loc8 Codes use OSI mapping under license to ensure the quality of generated Loc8 Codes (1m map accuracy at least) - also ensures that the whole population (not just urban areas) have equal quality mapping as a Loc8 Code source. Google does not provide this (or claim do do so)and Loc8 has taken on the cost of licensing OSI and OSNI mapping to ensure that the whole population of the Island can generate equal quality Loc8 Codes for their properties/features/events. OSI and OSNI mapping is not free to use as suggested previously. Furthermore, Coordinates or GPS receivers subsequently used to generate codes could give accuracies in the order of multiples of 10's of metres and must be carefully managed if a reliable location code is to be generated from them.
10. Loc8 Codes use a rating system to indicate the quality of the Loc8 Code to users (enter W8L-82-4YK here: http://www.myloc8ion.com/maps/find_code8 )
11. The protection of Loc8 Code by Copyright and a Patent application and license is used to ensure that a Loc8 Code cannot be created from unregulated or unrecognised poor quality sources and therefore users can always be confident in its quality.
12. Loc8 Codes can be used on Garmin Satnavs and on TomTom, Google and Navigon navigtion applications - no other has all these capabilities.
13. Loc8 Codes have investment and an infrastructure behind them to ensure that because organisations are already relying on them, they will continue to be available and supported over the long term.
14. Loc8 Codes are already being used and relied upon by: Local Authorities, Emergency Services, Commercial services and manufacturers, sports and social organisations - see some examples on the home page at www.loc8code.com
15. Loc8 Codes have the support and recognition of the Logistics industry and several large related services for the public are due for release over the next few weeks.
16. Loc8 Codes are providing jobs in the country and generating revenue for the country by related international licensing - all things which are badly needed in Ireland at this point. It is strange that any public servant would have a problem with this.
17. Loc8 Codes are owned by Loc8 Code Ltd and not GPS Ireland as has been suggested. GPS Ireland developed and tested Loc8 Codes as PON Codes up to beta test version but they are now owned and maintained by Loc8 Code Ltd a wholly owned Irish company based in Crosshaven (Loc8 Code: W8L-82-4YK )
18. How Loc8 Code works is widely published and is not secret as suggested - it is published internationally as required in order to get the Patent Priority that it enjoys globally. It is also available to all those who agree to protect the quality of how it is generated so that the public can continue to rely on its quality. A Loc8 Code License serves to protect the quality and reliability, but as said many times before anyone can generate a Loc8 Code via the web delivery system or Apps for free and publish it anywhere for free.
19. Loc8 Code has never been hired by Government or any of its representatives in relation to Loc8 Codes or Postcodes. Loc8 Code is independent and developed by a specialist GPS company in reaction to the persistance of Government in 2005/6 with traditional postcodes which are not suitable for modern location based technologies.
20. Over 160,000 users have visted Loc8code.com to generate their code and a Loc8 Code is already associated with around 1.8 million properites across the Republic.

I guess it is always the case with useful technologies that it would not be unusual for someone to come along 5 years after the fact and announce a similar brilliant new invention;- even it does have many apparantly similar outward qualities to Loc8 Code but many very important qualities missing!

I have been contributing to discussion on GPS, Irish Postcodes, PON Codes and Loc8 Codes on Boards.ie for quite a few years and am happy to continue to do so. I will continue to highlight that what a location code looks like is only part the battle;- what it does, what requirements it satisfies and what quality is associated with it and how these are all achieved simultaneously are what are important. Loc8 Codes were designed with all these in mind and they are already available and delivering in more ways than one!!

recedite · 16-07-2011 09:47PM

Condi wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I agree, all that Pat Rabbitte needs to do is give the official endorsement to an existing proven system.
By prevaricating for years, the govt. is actually holding back the country. People will naturally tend to wait for the "official" one, because they don't want to start using the "wrong" one, and then have to change.

Re Electoral Districts and Small Areas, these are useful for dividing up the population into manageable groups for the counting of votes and compiling statistics, but such designations are of no interest to me. I want to be able to direct a delivery, or a visitor, or emergency services to my house with no messing about. Also, to be able to easily find some other location I want to go to, by having someone else give me their exact location code.

antoinolachtnai · 16-07-2011 11:25PM

recedite wrote: »

.

Re Electoral Districts and Small Areas, these are useful for dividing up the population into manageable groups for the counting of votes and compiling statistics, but such designations are of no interest to me. I want to be able to direct a delivery, or a visitor, or emergency services to my house with no messing about. Also, to be able to easily find some other location I want to go to, by having someone else give me their exact location code.

Why would there be any messing about? Small area number, followed by road segment number followed by a digit for the premises on the road segment will bring you to the place just as well.

garydubh · 17-07-2011 11:21AM

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Why would there be any messing about? Small area number, followed by road segment number followed by a digit for the premises on the road segment will bring you to the place just as well.

Loc8 Code fits to Atomic Small Area Codes - so no problems there.

Your solution would work except to use it every device must have access to the database which defines where each code is... such Databases are expensive to maintain, only for properties, cannot be dynamic. Also the codes would be long and variable in length and difficult for any technology to validate that they are an actual code rather than just a collection of random characters.

The beauty of Loc8 Code is that it can work without a database (and all the related cost for solution developer/user). The Loc8 code is the location - not just a reference number in a database that has to be looked up to get the location. Also as a location a Loc8 Code never has to change to match densification or adminstrative changes. By their nature, Small Area Codes will change to compensate for densification - thereby changing a property's derived code.

There is therefore a major difference between both options which have been considered in depth at this point and the new Minister and both Government parties are most definitely in favour of the Location based option.

thirty-six dragons · 17-07-2011 01:18PM

Good news: a new interactive map is available for mapping and generating OpenPostcodes:

http://tinyurl.com/openpostcodegoogle

or, e.g., the Department of Energy, Communications and Natural Resources:

http://tinyurl.com/openpostcodegoogle/?opc=GTY5-3XW-7

It uses very simple Javascript based on the technical description of the code and some Google API calls demonstrating the simplicity and ease at which an opensource OpenPostcode could be implemented - even using free tools and hosting.

This page source is free to use and copy, adapt and develop, according to the LGPL. Webmasters, the entire page and code is free to copy and use according to the LGPL. It might be helpful if you include a link back to the OpenPostcode website, but it's not obligatory.

garydubh · 18-07-2011 06:31AM

iantheteacher wrote: »

Good news: a new interactive map is available for mapping and generating OpenPostcodes:

http://tinyurl.com/openpostcodegoogle

Big Emergency near Listowel at this code: 9999-999
All at sea at this code near Shannon Airport: CCCC-CCC
must be a new High Rise at this Code near Derry: VIAGRA
Belfast's Postcode moved south to Wexford: BT12
Popular Irish Town moved North of Border near Ballymena: TRIM
Taoiseach gets new House: ENDAKENNY

conolan · 18-07-2011 06:42AM

garydubh wrote: »

Big Emergency near Listowel at this code: 9999-999
All at sea at this code near Shannon Airport: CCCC-CCC
must be a new High Rise at this Code near Derry: VIAGRA
Belfast's Postcode moved south to Wexford: BT12
Popular Irish Town moved North of Border near Ballymena: TRIM
Taoiseach gets new House: ENDAKENNY

I think the only reason we can't post sillycodes from loc8 is because we can't search quickly on the loc8 map.

garydubh · 18-07-2011 07:37AM

conolan wrote: »

I think the only reason we can't post sillycodes from loc8 is because we can't search quickly on the loc8 map.

The fact is that you can't find "silly" Loc8 Codes because they do not exist - go here and feel free to have a go. With approximately 1.8 million generated I guess someone would have spotted one by now if they existed.

It is really strange that you think that it would be normal for a suitable solution to generate "sillycodes".

If you read and try understand what I post here (for quite a few years now) and what is documented on the www.loc8code.com website, then you would understand why.

I have said it before and here we go again - Loc8 Code is not a random result of an algorithm - it has design specification and it matches that. As a result there are no "silly" Loc8 Codes and what's more the code is predictable and validateable - it can be positively identified as a Loc8 Code both visually and using software. How could anyone ever rely on a code that is the result of a basic calculation and can be words/all numbers/all letters/anything - ie. completely random.

Please have read here and consider each point - the characteristics listed are the result of a design spec not a random result of a few basic sums.

National Postcodes to be introduced

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