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Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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Comments

  • #632
    blogga
    Closed Accounts Posts: 344 ✭✭blogga


    ShadowGal wrote: »
    I dont get this part. If he acts through us then how can all responsibility lie with us ? how is he acting through us ?

    There is no one acting through you. I can type that God is the author of your life and your final destiny. I can also type that Aslan is the author of lions and the destiny of wardrobes. Both statements are assertions about reality.


  • #633
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ShadowGal wrote: »
    I dont get this part. If he acts through us then how can all responsibility lie with us ? how is he acting through us ?

    Christians in pretty much every denomination believed that God sent the Holy Spirit into the lives of believers after Jesus left the earth. The Holy Spirit was sent to guide, strengthen, empower believers and to provide a link if you will between those who committed to believe and follow Jesus and the Father so that God could continue to speak into their lives.

    Christians would believe that Jesus through the Holy Spirit helps people bit by bit to live more like Him each and every day and to glorify God in every single thing they put their hands to. Christians have failed to be the light of God and in the case of the disgusting child abuse and the sickening cover up they have only perpetuated darkness. There is little more saddening for the person who believes that God can completely transform the world if we are willing than to see this.

    This is getting off-topic though I think.
    blogga wrote: »
    Political leaders are elected by parties and Dail Eireann. If you believe in the divine right of government good luck to you but you are living in a parallel universe.

    I don't believe that the Dáil should favour my beliefs in law nor would I like the Dáil to favour my beliefs in law. As far as I see it, we may elect our Government, but the Government still must fulfil that responsibility to govern or they are a defective Government. As for election, even if we elect, if God exists and if He has foreknowledge He knows in advance who will be elected and who won't be. In terms of individuals, in the Christian concept of things they will ultimately be held to account even if nobody on earth ever held them to account.


  • #634
    ShadowGal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭ShadowGal


    blogga wrote: »
    There is no one acting through you. I can type that God is the author of your life and your final destiny. I can also type that Aslan is the author of lions and the destiny of wardrobes. Both statements are assertions about reality.

    Yes i get this. It was more pointed at the person who posted the comment i quoted. It seemed to say God was acting through us, but, all responsibility for our actions were solely our own. Which i was interested in clarification in


  • #635
    King of Kings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭King of Kings


    I'm all on for priests being forced to disclose information that they know of - but lets have a level playing field - that also means jailing mothers who withhold info that the husband is raping the kids. Do I want that to happen - of course - will I see if happen ...doubt it.


  • #636
    ShadowGal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭ShadowGal


    King of Kings wrote: »
    I'm all on for priests being forced to disclose information that they know of - but lets have a level playing field - that also means jailing mothers who withhold info that the husband is raping the kids. Do I want that to happen - of course - will I see if happen ...doubt it.

    You say this as if you're unsure of what should happen to them. Anyone who knows of or has information on children being sexually abused is guilty as hell and in my opinion should feel the full wrath of the law


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  • #637
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    philologos wrote: »
    Biblically it is believed that God lives and dwells in us as Christians if we ask Him into our lives. As such God gives us the power to act, and that He acts through us which is precisely why I believe all responsibility lies squarely with us.

    So - again trying to get back on-topic - we're agreed that the catholic pope hasn't asked God into his life ? And so he can't be God's representative ? Or head of a good church ?


  • #638
    Haelium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭Haelium


    ShadowGal wrote: »
    Yes i get this. It was more pointed at the person who posted the comment i quoted. It seemed to say God was acting through us, but, all responsibility for our actions were solely our own. Which i was interested in clarification in


    It's quite simple, whenever anything good happens, it's a sign of how wonderful god is, if something bad happens, it's humanities fault.

    Bad things happen because we have free will, however if we make the wrong choices we burn in hell for all eternity. And as for natural disasters? Some people lived, so god is all loving obviously. Just ignore anyone who died.


  • #639
    Caulego
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Caulego


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Footnote : Personally I'd prefer to leave all of the above crap out of the discussion and just deal with the main topic - why some people believe that the church is above the law and still believe that the pope is someone to be revered/admired/obeyed. But since you repeatedly refuse to discuss just that, maybe we could start a general discussion on the relevance of the thread and then someone could move all posts related to that into their own relevant thread and leave this one to discuss why the catholic church believes that it's above the law.

    Fair point Liam. It's all quite simple really.
    (1)The RCC claims that its deity make the Earth and all upon it.
    (2) The RCC claims to act as the god's agent ie. it deems itself to be the owner of the earth on behalf of the god, and acts in its name and the imagined authority this lends them.
    (3) No one else has any authority over and above the RCC.
    (4) No one dares to challenge this position, so they keep on doing what they have always done...access the law, the Constitution, the education system, brainwash the kids into accepting this, who grow up feeling inadequate and unable to work out what has been done to them; take money from media and political sources in exchange for influence http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0716/1224300822182.html


    See? That's it in a nutshell. They are used to the blind belief in their own imagined right to entitlement to everything and everyone on the planet, even the whole Universe for that matter. What bit of 'It's all ours" don't you get? You are supposed to be 'humble' and not ask awkward questions...as "God might be offended", mightn't she? And we all know what happens then....bend over for your 'reward'.


  • #640
    ShadowGal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭ShadowGal


    Haelium wrote: »
    It's quite simple, whenever anything good happens, it's a sign of how wonderful god is, if something bad happens, it's humanities fault.

    Bad things happen because we have free will, however if we make the wrong choices we burn in hell for all eternity. And as for natural disasters? Some people lived, so god is all loving obviously. Just ignore anyone who died.

    I get it, im not religious myself but i have respect for most people and i try to always live and let live. This is one of my favorite quotes from David Attenborough on God, speaking of letters he has gotten about his shows

    "They tell me to burn in hell and good riddance."

    Telling the magazine that he was asked why he did not give "credit" to God, Attenborough added: "They always mean beautiful things like hummingbirds. I always reply by saying that I think of a little child in east Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball. The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs. I find that hard to reconcile with the notion of a divine and benevolent creator"

    Its just a thought but a good one i think


  • #641
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Good question. Some days shes catholic and other days shes Christian. Linky

    Will you please stop insulting me to other posters.

    It's immature and in no way helps your argument or helps you look smart.


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  • #642
    blogga
    Closed Accounts Posts: 344 ✭✭blogga


    "God appoints political leaders"
    Untrue. The fact is that in Ireland they are elected.
    Tbh Lover of the Word I think your posts are rambling proselytizing. Give us a break.


  • #643
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    OK - this is gone off on a tangent and while I was hoping for a reply from Min re their claims about the catholic church coming from Jesus, but I doubt anyone will wade through the ridiculous God debate which, as I said earlier, has nothing to do with the topic because IF God exists then he would have nothing to do with this sickening "church".

    No pope who acts like Rat did can have any authority in telling me what's right and wrong or what God expects.

    So debate away re other irrelevant stuff guys - none of which matters or has an impact on whether justice will be done, and none of which can have a definitive answer one way or the other until we die and find out.

    Liam - disappointedly - out.


  • #644
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Haelium wrote: »
    It's quite simple, whenever anything good happens, it's a sign of how wonderful god is, if something bad happens, it's humanities fault.

    Not quite how I see it. Ultimately if we are responsible for something wrong, that is our responsibility. That's pretty simple. If we are responsible for something good, we are responsible for something good. Where God comes in terms of Christianity is that God is the arbitrator of what is good and evil, essentially the moral law maker. He will judge according to that law at the end of time. In the event that we fail to follow that moral law (as we've all done), He offers us the opportunity by Christ's death on the cross to turn our lives around, be forgiven and to recommit ourselves to Him.
    Haelium wrote: »
    Bad things happen because we have free will, however if we make the wrong choices we burn in hell for all eternity. And as for natural disasters? Some people lived, so god is all loving obviously. Just ignore anyone who died.

    Bad things don't happen just because we have free will. Rather we have free will to make decisions about what we are going to do both for our good and for our detriment. Bad things happen when we choose to abuse our free will to do what is evil, either to our own detriment or to the detriment of others.

    In the case we're discussing child abuse arose because people evidently decided to do what was grossly detrimental and harmful to children. Now our Government needs to step in and govern to ensure that such depraved abuse doesn't happen again (as Christians believe God commanded Governments to do).

    As for natural disasters the world operates according to a series of natural laws. Occasionally humans get caught up in them. It's really a subject for another thread though as we are talking about something that humans clearly and evidently intended.


  • #645
    KeithM89_old
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,806 ✭✭✭✭KeithM89_old


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Good question. Some days shes catholic and other days shes Christian. Linky

    Dont drag posts/threads from other forums into this discussion, thanks.


  • #646
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ShadowGal wrote: »
    You say this as if you're unsure of what should happen to them. Anyone who knows of or has information on children being sexually abused is guilty as hell and in my opinion should feel the full wrath of the law
    I'm not sure that the mandatory reporting is going to be universal. As I understand it (and I may be mistaken), it will be targeted at professionals who may in the course of their work gain knowledge of abuses.

    Personally, I'm of the view that parents who don't act on the abuse of their own children are more culpable than others.


  • #647
    blogga
    Closed Accounts Posts: 344 ✭✭blogga


    Lover of the Word: does God appoint the Irish govt? Yes or No?


  • #648
    King of Kings
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭King of Kings


    ShadowGal wrote: »
    You say this as if you're unsure of what should happen to them. Anyone who knows of or has information on children being sexually abused is guilty as hell and in my opinion should feel the full wrath of the law

    no I was clear what I wanted to happen - but the judicary are very lenient on women with kids (in most cases). That's my point I want them to hammer EVERYBODY who is guilty of withholding not just priests with their confession - which in fairness must be a small percentage of the "knowledge" of sexual crimes out there.


  • #649
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    blogga wrote: »
    Lover of the Word: does God appoint the Irish govt? Yes or No?

    Ultimately yes as far as I see it given that if God exists He would know the outcome of any given election in advance.


  • #650
    ShadowGal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭ShadowGal


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'm not sure that the mandatory reporting is going to be universal. As I understand it (and I may be mistaken), it will be targeted at professionals who may in the course of their work gain knowledge of abuses.

    Personally, I'm of the view that parents who don't act on the abuse of their own children are more culpable than others.

    I totally agree with you. Its a tough grey area when it comes to parents but i really strongly feel that if a mother or father knew that the other was sexually abusing children and never reported it then they should be almost as guilty as the abuser for not stepping in. My sister used to work for childline and they never had to call the police to report things only when it came to suicide cases where someone was telling them they were going to do it. Id be interested to know where they all stand now with those calls


  • #651
    Caulego
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Caulego


    Spread wrote: »
    Sorry if this is mentioned before - have not read the full thread. Are we not told that Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's." Surely that puts a slight bias towards the laws of the land? The law of the land is the law of the land. The law of god is teletubby law.:)

    Joshua Ben Miriam was attributed with saying many things, but how do we know if what he said survived the various 'edits' of the Vatican and other 'experts'? After all, the main bible used by Christians today is called the 'Authorised King James Version', but few bother asking how the so-called 'truth' could have a 'version' decided by politicians nearly 1500 years after it was supposedly first written. If we are to take all his alleged sayings as being verbatim, this one might be more than appropriate in the discussion here:

    Jesus said, “Temptations, stumbling blocks, enticements are surely to come, but whoever causes one of these little ones to sin, it would be better that a giant millstone would be tied around their neck and they would be thrown into the heart of the sea.”

    Where are all the millstones stored? Maybe the really don't 'believe' his words after all? Surely if they were his avowed followers, they would do as he commanded?


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  • #652
    ShadowGal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭ShadowGal


    philologos wrote: »
    Ultimately yes as far as I see it given that if God exists He would know the outcome of any given election in advance.

    wow, he must f**king hate us then


  • #653
    blogga
    Closed Accounts Posts: 344 ✭✭blogga


    philologos wrote: »
    Ultimately yes as far as I see it given that if God exists He would know the outcome of any given election in advance.

    So knowing the outcome of an event in advance equates to appointing the outcome. By your thinking god is omniscient and therefore knows all outcomes in advance and appoints those outcomes. Even if the outcome is the abuse of child.

    The facts are that the people appoint the govt and abuse occurs because of sick minds and organizations which regard themselves as above the law.


  • #654
    ShadowGal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭ShadowGal


    blogga wrote: »
    So knowing the outcome of an event in advance equates to appointing the outcome. By your thinking god is omniscient and therefore knows all outcomes in advance and appoints those outcomes. Even if the outcome is the abuse of child.

    The facts are that the people appoint the govt and abuse occurs because of sick minds and organizations which regard themselves as above the law.

    Sick minds are just that, sick minds. Yes the church covered it up, but the bottom line is these people have sick minds. I dont believe they have sick minds because of the church


  • #655
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    philologos wrote: »
    in the Christian concept of things they will ultimately be held to account even if nobody on earth ever held them to account.
    I've a better idea, let's hold them to account right here on earth, and the damned organisation that shelters them.

    Sorry if that muddies the highbrow justifications being loquaciously and verbosely pontificated upon by those faithful to the hypocrisy, but I've a good response for child rapists and their defenders in mind right now.

    This institution must end.


  • #656
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ShadowGal wrote: »
    Sick minds are just that, sick minds. Yes the church covered it up, but the bottom line is these people have sick minds. I dont believe they have sick minds because of the church
    This is double speak - they church did wrong, yet the church is not to blame.

    If the church covered up the abuse isn't the church itself sick?


  • #657
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Amhran Nua: I'm not saying that nobody should hold them to account here. I'm saying that it is our responsibility to hold people to account for criminal offences.

    blogga: You're right, I feel I've made a mistake in the reasoning there. What I want to say is that political leadership arises out of a God-given responsibility to govern effectively. In the event where people in Government are not accountable to anyone but do what is patently wrong they will be accountable to God. As political leaders are elected, as far as Christians are concerned they are fulfilling a divinely given duty to mankind. That's probably the best statement of what I mean excluding any error that I've probably just made.


  • #658
    BrianOFlanagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭BrianOFlanagan


    We need to get rid of the church just like st. patrick got rid of the snakes. Just look at the damage they have caused us through the years, so much pain and suffering. No good can come from such a profoundly evil group.


  • #659
    crucamim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    BrianOFlanagan wrote: »
    We need to get rid of the church just like st. patrick got rid of the snakes. Just look at the damage they have caused us through the years, so much pain and suffering. No good can come from such a profoundly evil group.

    And how do you intend to achieve that need?


  • #660
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    crucamim wrote: »
    And how do you intend to achieve that need?

    Chase them into the sea?


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  • #661
    BrianOFlanagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 179 ✭✭BrianOFlanagan


    crucamim wrote: »
    And how do you intend to achieve that need?

    Everyone of us has the capacity to differentiate the truth from lies. The church and its lies will die slowly. We the people just need to cop on and stop listening to their babbling nonsense, without sheep there is no need for the shepherd.

    Also why do they deserve a special position in the society of modern Ireland? Our pasts may be intertwined but the past is for history books. A modern society should treat all beliefs (or lack thereof) in the exact same way out of pure fairness and equality. The catholic church virus has seeped its way into everything that makes this country tick and look what has happened, where is the greater good in that?

    If God exists then they have abandoned us.


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