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Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    As this is AH I feel I can say this, I'd love to blast joey ratzinger with pi$s!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭Birroc


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    I'd have no problem with the Pope being dismissed, if he is covering anything up. And for what it's it's worth - we answer to God.

    Take off the blinkers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    philologos wrote: »
    If so, I'm encouraged, but I don't believe this will be true of many.

    I don't see why not. The only question in relation to God would be "why did he allow this", which would apply to natural disasters and lots of other stuff, so that's nothing new.

    God didn't do the abuse; sickos did.
    God didn't cover up the abuse; Ratzinger and the other sickos did.

    Since there is obviously no connection between God and the catholic church, there's no reason to hold this against God.


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,670 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I don't see why not. The only question in relation to God would be "why did he allow this", which would apply to natural disasters and lots of other stuff, so that's nothing new.

    God didn't do the abuse; sickos did.
    God didn't cover up the abuse; Ratzinger and the other sickos did.

    Since there is obviously no connection between God and the catholic church, there's no reason to hold this against God.

    I'm not trying to troll, really, but do you not find it odd that the omnipotent and omniscient god seemed to have no problem with the abuse carried out in an organisation that claims to be his representatives on earth? If there is a god then we have every right to question why he allowed this to happen, he had more power and responsibility than anyone to put a stop to it....

    It's completely different to natural disasters too, they're a normal part of the earth's workings.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    I'm not trying to troll, really, but do you not find it odd that the omnipotent and omniscient god seemed to have no problem with the abuse carried out in an organisation that claims to be his representatives on earth? If there is a god then we have every right to question why he allowed this to happen, he had more power and responsibility than anyone to put a stop to it....

    It's completely different to natural disasters too, they're a normal part of the earth's workings.

    "mumble mumble' Free will...."mumble" mysterious ways... "mumble" faith mumble......


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    I'm not trying to troll, really, but do you not find it odd that the omnipotent and omniscient god seemed to have no problem with the abuse carried out in an organisation that claims to be his representatives on earth? If there is a god then we have every right to question why he allowed this to happen, he had more power and responsibility than anyone to put a stop to it....

    It's completely different to natural disasters too, they're a normal part of the earth's workings.

    I agree to a large extent (although there is an argument re free will and such things - á la parent-and-child relationship) but I'm deliberately trying to weed out any such scope for debate in order to stick to the topic at hand.

    The "why does God allow this / does he exist " is probably best discussed elsewhere, because this thread is actually unrelated to God; it's about a sick man-made organisation that refuses point-blank to be held accountable for the worst of crimes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    I'm not trying to troll, really, but do you not find it odd that the omnipotent and omniscient god seemed to have no problem with the abuse carried out in an organisation that claims to be his representatives on earth? If there is a god then we have every right to question why he allowed this to happen, he had more power and responsibility than anyone to put a stop to it....

    What is your basis for assuming that God doesn't have issue with this type of clerical abuse? - Take a read through the New Testament. Jesus raged at the religious hierarchy of his age which kicked people when they were down rather than gave people the help they needed to get back up.

    I think as a Christians (either in the RCC or outside of it, it doesn't really matter) that we're going to be really surprised when Jesus comes back and I suspect most of His condemnation will be for us for failing to live as He encouraged us to. Indeed, not just failing to do that, but chronically failing to do so.

    It's us who failed. It's not God who failed. Expecting God to clean up what we screw up is an incredibly simplistic understanding of God and of human responsibility.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    philologos wrote: »
    What is your basis for assuming that God doesn't have issue with this type of clerical abuse? - Take a read through the New Testament. Jesus raged at the religious hierarchy of his age which kicked people when they were down rather than gave people the help they needed to get back up.

    I think as a Christians (either in the RCC or outside of it, it doesn't really matter) that we're going to be really surprised when Jesus comes back and I suspect most of His condemnation will be for us for failing to live as He encouraged us to. Indeed, not just failing to do that, but chronically failing to do so.

    It's us who failed. It's not God who failed. Expecting God to clean up what we screw up is an incredibly simplistic understanding of God and of human responsibility.
    There is a wee matter of him being all powerful yet doing nothing about it.


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,670 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    philologos wrote: »
    What is your basis for assuming that God doesn't have issue with this type of clerical abuse? - Take a read through the New Testament. Jesus raged at the religious hierarchy of his age which kicked people when they were down rather than gave people the help they needed to get back up.

    All very well raging back then, it's now he would want to be raging, the fact that he doesn't seem to be is my basis.

    Let's not start this debate though, it was Liam Byrne I asked and he gave a really good answer, plus I know better than to start a debate like that with you Jakk :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    There is a wee matter of him being all powerful yet doing nothing about it.

    Free choice and ****.

    If a priest wants to abuse some kids then it's all good until he's dead...then God is really gonna **** him.

    Or something.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    There is a wee matter of him being all powerful yet doing nothing about it.

    Knowledge isn't the same thing as culpability. Even in any example on a Biblical level when God acts, he is often patient prior to doing so to give people the opportunity to turn around. For example in the case of the Israelite's being collectively punished for their sin against God He waited 400 years before acting and that was the time which He felt was most appropriate.

    I don't expect snap reactions from God, and I must accept that He's ultimately right. I suspect that the RCC is receiving it's judgement in the present for the gross neglect of children that they allowed to commit under their care.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    philologos wrote: »
    Knowledge isn't the same thing as culpability. Even in any example on a Biblical level when God acts, he is often patient prior to doing so to give people the opportunity to turn around. For example in the case of the Israelite's being collectively punished for their sin against God He waited 400 years before acting and that was the time which He felt was most appropriate.

    I don't expect snap reactions from God, and I must accept that He's ultimately right. I suspect that the RCC is receiving it's judgement in the present for the gross neglect of children that they allowed to commit under their care.

    Maybe the abused kids and ladies in the laundries did though. More likely he just aint there dont ya think. Either that or he just doesnt give a monkeys.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    philologos wrote: »
    Knowledge isn't the same thing as culpability. Even in any example on a Biblical level when God acts, he is often patient prior to doing so to give people the opportunity to turn around. For example in the case of the Israelite's being collectively punished for their sin against God He waited 400 years before acting and that was the time which He felt was most appropriate.

    I don't expect snap reactions from God, and I must accept that He's ultimately right. I suspect that the RCC is receiving it's judgement in the present for the gross neglect of children that they allowed to commit under their care.

    Yeah, but after 400 hundred years anyone who could have committed said act of incurring Gods wrath was dead...so surely they had already received their punishment?

    God was just going after the kids of the kids of the kids, which makes no sense even by his own standards.

    Regarding snap actions from God....he is supposed to be infallible...whether he waited 4 seconds or 400 years doesn't matter...what he did would have been right surely?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Maybe the abused kids and ladies in the laundries did though. More likely he just aint there dont ya think. Either that or he just doesnt give a monkeys.

    Again, I don't believe that you ultimately know better than God. God will ultimately hold everyone to account. Until then He gives us dominion over the earth and ultimately over each other. In so far as we have dominion we can offer people the opportunity to change their lives through Him. As far as He has dominion, there is no changing, if one is unrepentant of sin before Him there is no turning back, one will be condemned.

    I don't expect God to be my puppet, I expect Him to be God and act as He feels is most appropriate, and I respect that He has authority over us rather than the other way around.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    philologos wrote: »
    Again, I don't believe that you ultimately know better than God. God will ultimately hold everyone to account. Until then He gives us dominion over the earth and ultimately over each other. In so far as we have dominion we can offer people the opportunity to change their lives through Him. As far as He has dominion, there is no changing, if one is unrepentant of sin before Him there is no turning back, one will be condemned.

    I don't expect God to be my puppet, I expect Him to be God and act as He feels is most appropriate, and I respect that He has authority over us rather than the other way around.

    I have the advantage of definitely existing thus having consciousness and opinion forming experience.
    I know better than God, Unicorns and Big Foot rolled into one baby!!!:D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I have the advantage of definitely existing thus having consciousness and opinion forming experience.
    I know better than God, Unicorns and Big Foot rolled into one baby!!!:D

    Let me know when you're willing to chat in a mature and civilised manner :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    philologos wrote: »
    Let me know when you're willing to chat in a mature and civilised manner :)

    You're the one who believes in supernatural beings.
    Seriously. Im here, God probably isnt so i think my opinion counts for more.
    If I could stop child abuse right here and now i would. Your god is either unwilling or unable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Yeah, but after 400 hundred years anyone who could have committed said act of incurring Gods wrath was dead...so surely they had already received their punishment?

    If their offspring were continuing to sin and if God had given them the mercy to change, but they hadn't? If one looks to the prophetic tradition of Judaism, it is clear that they had plenty of warning as to what they were doing wrong also. That sounds incredibly gracious to me.
    God was just going after the kids of the kids of the kids, which makes no sense even by his own standards.

    See above.
    Regarding snap actions from God....he is supposed to be infallible...whether he waited 4 seconds or 400 years doesn't matter...what he did would have been right surely?

    I believe God is infallible. I don't believe it is an error for God to wait. I believe it is merciful that He waits in order to enable people to repent, I believe it is just that He will ultimately act.

    I believe it is considerably better if people could change their hearts and turn their lives around than to be subject to the punishment of God. I actually wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. There is also the latent assumption that God is not acting because He's not punishing. I don't believe that is valid either, because I don't believe the only thing that God does in this world is punish.

    Ghost Buster: My previous post still applies. I'm not interested in wasting my time. I'm interested in people who want to intelligently engage and get to the root of all things as I believe Logical Fallacy is earnestly trying to do. I respect that a lot, I don't respect childish ridicule.
    Your god is either unwilling or unable.

    Tripe. That's Epicurus all over. It's a false diachotomy. What if is ultimately better to wait rather than act immediately? If God is omniscient, He's the one to determine this not you and not I.

    In Biblical terms it's like the pottery giving out about its maker.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    philologos wrote: »
    If their offspring were continuing to sin and if God had given them the mercy to change, but they hadn't? If one looks to the prophetic tradition of Judaism, it is clear that they had plenty of warning as to what they were doing wrong also. That sounds incredibly gracious to me.



    See above.



    I believe God is infallible. I don't believe it is an error for God to wait.
    I believe it is merciful that He waits in order to enable people to repent,
    I believe it is just that He will ultimately act.


    I believe it is considerably better if people could change their hearts and turn their lives around than to be subject to the punishment of God. I actually wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. There is also the latent assumption that God is not acting because He's not punishing. I don't believe that is valid either, because I don't believe the only thing that God does in this world is punish.
    Its an error if he doesnt prevent abuse if he has the power to do so.
    Merciful to the abusers but not to the abused?
    Ultimately acts when its too late for the abused.?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Its an error if he doesnt prevent abuse if he has the power to do so.
    Merciful to the abusers but not to the abused?
    Ultimately acts when its too late for the abused.?

    God is ultimately to bring all things to justice. That's what He will do. As for intervening in peoples decisions constantly, that's utterly nonsensical because if God constantly intervened so that we could never do anything wrong we'd be mere automaton rather than free beings.

    It is because we have freedom that we are responsible. It's a childish notion of responsibility that if we screw up that God is ultimately responsible. This is just shrugging our responsibility and passing it on to Him. Ultimately it is because we have free will that we are responsible. If we were automaton and something went wrong it would be up to the programmer about as much as I'm responsible if I coded a program for a customer that ultimately didn't work.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭PARKHEAD67


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    The Catholic Church is an organisation that has overseen the rape and torture of Irish children.

    Any other organisation to have done so would have been declared illegal and had its assets seized. :mad:
    Im Catholic, but every fcucker who did this or who was involved in hiding this should be hung,drawn and quartered.The sick, disgusting bastards.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Can we lose the distracting debate as to whether or not God exists?

    Regardless of whether or not he does, the sickos involved in this are the ones who should be jailed.

    And not in some made-up canon jail - a real one!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 344 ✭✭blogga


    While we are waiting for Great Spaghetti Monster aka God to right all wrongs we can deal with matters ourselves. Laws. Enforcement.
    And philologos can theorize for as long as he wants about god. You might as well read your the chronicles of narnia.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    A crass and arrogant generalisation if ever there was one.

    Intelligence is a gift, Im glad to be able to use it. :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭PARKHEAD67


    blogga wrote: »
    While we are waiting for Great Spaghetti Monster aka God to right all wrongs we can deal with matters ourselves. Laws. Enforcement.
    And philologos can theorize for as long as he wants about god. You might as well read your the chronicles of narnia.
    They should all be hanged.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    blogga wrote: »
    While we are waiting for Great Spaghetti Monster aka God to right all wrongs we can deal with matters ourselves. Laws. Enforcement.
    And philologos can theorize for as long as he wants about god. You might as well read your the chronicles of narnia.

    Meh. This isn't what Christianity would present. One of the first commands in Christian belief that God gave to mankind was responsibility over the earth, that includes good government. This is why Christians believe that God appoints political leaders to society to ensure stability in a fallen world to rule. In terms of church situations Biblically it is believed that God lives and dwells in us as Christians if we ask Him into our lives. As such God gives us the power to act, and that He acts through us which is precisely why I believe all responsibility lies squarely with us.

    As for you, you can believe whatever you think is most reasonable, but if I am challenged I'll defend my beliefs in full to anyone on boards.ie or face-to-face.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Caulego


    The "rules" are made up by a consistently self serving and corrupt organisation. They are subject to the laws of the land just like googles' or facebooks' or any other world wide multi billion business that operates here. Just cos the ceo wears a funny frock and claims to talk to god doesn't make any difference. If Zuckerberg suddenly turned tranny and claimed to speak to Jesus, he wouldn't be legally entitled to cover up rapes and murders, why should anyone else?

    Aah...well, now SB, don't you realise that Ireland has a 'special relationship', some might say incestuous, with the Roman Catholic Church. The historical relaity is that the Church of Rome sold Ireland to the king of England of the time. Henry II, the King of England, invaded Ireland in 1171 with a Papal Bull, "Laudabiliter," from Adrian IV, the only English Pope. The Bull authorized the invasion to reform the Irish Church and to collect what was to become known as 'Peter's Pence' on the citizenry, as a tax, and send it to Rome in exchange for access to Ireland as a slave nation. The Archbishops of Tuam and Cashel and the Kings of Waterford and Dublin met at the Synod of Cashel in late 1171. There it was decreed to submit to the tithe and to conform to the customs of the continental Church. It also recognized Henry as the King of Ireland, thus submitting the Irish citizens to the rule of England, which set the scene for the next 700 years. It was the Pope who sold us off, but of course it suited the clergy, who just collected the taxes on behalf of the English king, and the priests have had free reign and access to children since. It's a fact, but if you wish to think otherwise, and 'believe' as we were brainwashed into doing in school, that we were a race of semi-mythical heroes, then that's what most want to hear, as we don't like facts when our blind 'faith' is in danger of being questioned, as we don't get the irony of why exactly it is called 'blind'.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Cashel


    This is all the more ironic when you think of how the Queen Elizabeth II just this year visited Cashel as part of her tour, following in the steps of her predecessors, and in the wake of the IMF 'bailout', which is funded by monies mainly owned by the various monarchies and elite families of Europe, including the House of Windsor, as always. We are suckers for the sleight of hand tricks, and then think we are clever when we think that we are the cute hoors.
    But of course we, the soft old Irish, never see the wood for the trees and are so delighted to roll over and have our bellies scratched like a bunch of grateful corgis. As my grandmother used to say about the poverty she saw in Ireland when she was a girl, "We had the priest to keep us ignorant and the landlord to keep us poor". Some things never change...but sure aren't we proud to be Irish, and to offer up our children to Mammon and to the God of Rome.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭ShadowGal


    philologos wrote: »
    Meh. This isn't what Christianity would present. One of the first commands in Christian belief that God gave to mankind was responsibility over the earth, that includes good government. This is why Christians believe that God appoints political leaders to society to ensure stability in a fallen world to rule. In terms of church situations Biblically it is believed that God lives and dwells in us as Christians if we ask Him into our lives. As such God gives us the power to act, and that He acts through us which is precisely why I believe all responsibility lies squarely with us.

    As for you, you can believe whatever you think is most reasonable, but if I am challenged I'll defend my beliefs in full to anyone on boards.ie or face-to-face.

    I dont get this part. If he acts through us then how can all responsibility lie with us ? how is he acting through us ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 344 ✭✭blogga


    philologos wrote: »
    Meh. This isn't what Christianity would present. One of the first commands in Christian belief that God gave to mankind was responsibility over the earth, that includes good government. This is why Christians believe that God appoints political leaders to society to ensure stability in a fallen world to rule. In terms of church situations Biblically it is believed that God lives and dwells in us as Christians if we ask Him into our lives. As such God gives us the power to act, and that He acts through us which is precisely why I believe all responsibility lies squarely with us.

    As for you, you can believe whatever you think is most reasonable, but if I am challenged I'll defend my beliefs in full to anyone on boards.ie or face-to-face.

    What does this mean? It's gibberish. Political leaders are elected by parties and Dail Eireann. If you believe in the divine right of government good luck to you but you are living in a parallel universe. To get back to the point: no organizations beliefs about itself are if any relevance. What is applicable is the law of the land. /thread.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭Spread


    Sorry if this is mentioned before - have not read the full thread. Are we not told that Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's." Surely that puts a slight bias towards the laws of the land? The law of the land is the law of the land. The law of god is teletubby law.:)


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