Catholic Church claims it is above the law

Ghost Buster · 16-07-2011 05:07PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Is it not possible to have threads on the Catholic Church that don't descend into sweeping generalisation and all-out Church/Catholic bashing.

I think we would all do well to remember some simple facts;

1.) Being a priest DOES NOT equal being a paedophile, evil etc etc. I wager the vast majority are honest decent men who simply want to serve their God and their people and would never dream of hurting a child.

2.)The Catholic Church as a whole IS NOT responsible for the child abuse, the blame lies with a minority of sick monsters within it. You simply cannot tar everyone with one brush.

3.)Remaining part of the faith DOES NOT equal condoning what happened and frankly it is offensive to suggest that believers, by virtue of being believers, are ok with child abuse and the cover up of it.

Yeah. The Audrey Mantra is here!!!!!!
. Find me a few posts in this thread which comment on individual priests or generalises about them.... go on........
FFS this is about The RCC claiming to be above the law.The thread in your head does not exist here...

Ghost Buster · 16-07-2011 05:08PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Where on earth did you get that from? I am as appalled by what was done to all those children as anyone.

I support those good men and women who want only to do right and serve their God and people in the right way. I have no time for the monsters who abused children and those that covered it up.

Probably from the same place you get your interpretation of threads from......... His own head....

Mahatma coat · 16-07-2011 05:08PM

havent read the thread, but has anyone posted this yet??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ1_aQz6IuU

Ghost Buster · 16-07-2011 05:09PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Please don't pontificate to me, it only makes you appear arrogant and I am sure you are not.

Less of the sweeping generalisations please. You cannot tar the whole church with brush whether you like it or not. How many time do you state this when it is not being done

I do not, never have and never will condone anyone who does any harm to any child. It sickens and appalls me.

As I have said before I would not leave my job because my boss was outed as a paedophile, I would expect him to be the one to leave. So it should be with Church.

...

Ghost Buster · 16-07-2011 05:12PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have addressed the points being made, I just did it in as few words as possible to better get my point across.

Less of the smart-ass crap please.

No. You address imaginary points about people having issues with individual priests. Points which have not been made.... You are so very very strange and hysterical.
Can we clarify if you are a catholic or a Christian today. This changes quite a bit and It may be relevant

Worztron · 16-07-2011 05:19PM

Imagine how many people that were abused have since committed suicide. The usual mealy mouth apologies from the clergy is not much good to them. The Catholic church have committed the most evil crime in protecting filthy pedophiles and caring far more about their precious reputation than the poor children whose lives they wrecked.

Shame shame shame! :mad:

Ghost Buster · 16-07-2011 05:23PM

Can I clarify that this thread is about
(1) The Irish Catholic Church thinking that its own canon law is above state law
and that this has broadened out to include
(2) The deliberately obstructive stance and handling of Irish abuse cases by The Vatican..
So thats two single entities The Irish RCC and The Vatican.
So no tarring of all Priests with one brush there
No sweeping generalisations.

Jesus H Christ this echoed mantra is painful

Min · 16-07-2011 05:23PM

Some here seem to not know the church is the people. The priests are not the church but a part of the church.
The Catholic faith is not based on priests, it is based on Jesus. If a member of the church does wrong, it does not change the teaching of Jesus, if a member of the church handles an abuse care incorrectly it does not affect the teachings of Jesus.
A lot of people believe the Catholic church is the church that is closest to the teachings of Jesus as it goes back to the Peter.
When I hear of abuse in the church it doesn't make me stupid and think - they are all at it, which is the nonsensical stuff one reads here sometimes. No honest decent Catholic wants abuse of anyone happening in the church and we all want everything done so it doesn't happen.
I am not leaving the Catholic faith as it feels right to me in both a spiritual and religious way, it does me good, the priests and so on are the administrators, most of the church is made up of ordinary people which make up somewhere over 99% of the church.
So when I hear of a priest who abused, and priests who abuse are a small minority, it doesn't change anything for me except feel angry and sad that someone used the church to do evil to another human being.
There was a father of an abuse victim from Cloyne on the radio during the week, his daughter was abused, he said he still is a practising Catholic.
The people here who can only criticise and there is a lot to criticise, never seen to understand that the church also gives a lot that is positive to people and the reason a lot of Catholics aren't leaving is due to the positives which helps people in their everyday life, it doesn't mean we aren't disgusted by the abusers.

Ghost Buster · 16-07-2011 05:26PM

Min wrote: »

Some here seem to not know the church is the people. The priests are not the church but a part of the church.
The Catholic faith is not based on priests, it is based on Jesus. If a member of the church does wrong, it does not change the teaching of Jesus, if a member of the church handles an abuse care incorrectly it does not affect the teachings of Jesus.
A lot of people believe the Catholic church is the church that is closest to the teachings of Jesus as it goes back to the Peter.
When I hear of abuse in the church it doesn't make me stupid and think - they are all at it, which is the nonsensical stuff one reads here sometimes. No honest decent Catholic wants abuse of anyone happening in the church and we all want everything done so it doesn't happen.
I am not leaving the Catholic faith as it feels right to me in both a spiritual and religious way, it does me good, the priests and so on are the administrators, most of the church is made up of ordinary people which make up somewhere over 99% of the church.
So when I hear of a priest who abused, and priests who abuse are a small minority, it doesn't change anything for me except feel angry and sad that someone used the church to do evil to another human being.
There was a father of an abuse victim from Cloyne on the radio during the week, his daughter was abused, he said he still is a practising Catholic.
The people here who can only criticise and there is a lot to criticise, never seen to understand that the church also gives a lot that is positive to people and the reason a lot of Catholics aren't leaving is due to the positives which helps people in their everyday life, it doesn't mean we aren't disgusted by the abusers.

And this diatribe is relevant to the thread how?
Two posts back is what this thread is about. Perhaps you are posting in the wrong thread?

Min · 16-07-2011 05:31PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

And this diatribe is relevant to the thread how?

Read the topic, read some of the posts.

You might find the above suggestion helpful

Ghost Buster · 16-07-2011 05:34PM

Min wrote: »

Read the topic, read some of the posts.

You might find the above suggestion helpful

The topic at large is that a belief in magic wants to be exempt from state law which i have suggested is similar to seeking special status for Goblins. The above has little relevance to this and so is not helpful.
There are a dam sight less posts condeming individual priests here than there are posts claiming the existance of such posts.:D

Liam Byrne · 16-07-2011 05:38PM

Min wrote: »

Some here seem to not know the church is the people. The priests are not the church but a part of the church.
The Catholic faith is not based on priests, it is based on Jesus.

Really?

When did Jesus say that priests can't marry ?

When did Jesus say that every time you have sex that you should risk having a child that you don't want or can't afford ?

When did Jesus say that God's representative on Earth should tell people to STFU about child abuse ?

When did Jesus say that gay people were evil ?

When did Jesus say that women couldn't be priests ?

Anyway, none of that is the subject of the thread.....the thread is about what we should do about the fact that the catholic church thinks it's above the law.

I live by the Ten Commandments, not the ****ty man-made rules of someone who thinks it's OK to condone child abuse and tries to prevent the decent people in the church from exposing that abuse.

But since I realise that the pope is evil I cannot be a part of the church.

BTW - can I ask a question without being too personal ? Do you have sex before marriage and do you use condoms ? If so, you are not a catholic.

Ghost Buster · 16-07-2011 05:48PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Really?

When did Jesus say that priests can't marry ?

When did Jesus say that every time you have sex that you should risk having a child that you don't want or can't afford ?

When did Jesus say that God's representative on Earth should tell people to STFU about child abuse ?

When did Jesus say that gay people were evil ?

When did Jesus say that women couldn't be priests ?

Anyway, none of that is the subject of the thread.....the thread is about what we should do about the fact that the catholic church thinks it's above the law.

I live by the Ten Commandments, not the ****ty man-made rules of someone who thinks it's OK to condone child abuse and tries to prevent the decent people in the church from exposing that abuse.

But since I realise that the pope is evil I cannot be a part of the church.

BTW - can I ask a question without being too personal ? Do you have sex before marriage and do you use condoms ? If so, you are not a catholic.

Ha!!!!!! Read through some of Audreys older posts. She believes next to nothing about catholicism but she is one because SHE REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY WANTS TO BE ONE

mackg · 16-07-2011 05:50PM

Liam Byrne and Ghost buster are right, I was heavily involved in this thread before it became derailed by the claims it was purely for catholic bashing. The only person on the other side of the fence to Liam and Ghost who is purely debating what the thread is about is Philologos. Min as admirable as some of your sentiments about good priests and ordinary catholics are they are nothing to do with what is being discussed. If you subtract the posts that are completely irrelevant to the actual topic this thread would be about half the length.

charlemont · 16-07-2011 05:56PM

Ghost Buster wrote: »

[/B]

Ha!!!!!! Read through some of Audreys older posts. She believes next to nothing about catholicism but she is one because SHE REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY WANTS TO BE ONE

Some people just never knew they were conditioned and brainwashed from birth
and they see nothing wrong with it as they don't know any better, If that mentality persisted across the island 100 years ago we would still be under British rule.

Some people should learn more about history relating to the CC and this island, Hint Adrian VI

Melanoma · 16-07-2011 05:58PM

It is so sad that they use religious intellectual arguments about the laws of man vs the church. Laws concerning child safety do not conflict with any moral teaching so they should be followed. If there was any evidence of priests being which hunted in some country people might support a lack of cooperation but I have heard of no such country.

philologos · 16-07-2011 06:03PM

mackg wrote: »

Liam Byrne and Ghost buster are right, I was heavily involved in this thread before it became derailed by the claims it was purely for catholic bashing. The only person on the other side of the fence to Liam and Ghost who is purely debating what the thread is about is Philologos. Min as admirable as some of your sentiments about good priests and ordinary catholics are they are nothing to do with what is being discussed. If you subtract the posts that are completely irrelevant to the actual topic this thread would be about half the length.

I'm not on the other side of the fence but I can sympathise with many people who do have a sincere Roman Catholic faith. They must be absolutely gutted. I think we need serious action by the State, and I think the law needs to be applied and it hasn't been. I don't understand why.

Portia 27 · 16-07-2011 06:14PM

Min wrote: »

Some here seem to not know the church is the people. The priests are not the church but a part of the church.
The Catholic faith is not based on priests, it is based on Jesus. If a member of the church does wrong, it does not change the teaching of Jesus, if a member of the church handles an abuse care incorrectly it does not affect the teachings of Jesus.
A lot of people believe the Catholic church is the church that is closest to the teachings of Jesus as it goes back to the Peter.
When I hear of abuse in the church it doesn't make me stupid and think - they are all at it, which is the nonsensical stuff one reads here sometimes. No honest decent Catholic wants abuse of anyone happening in the church and we all want everything done so it doesn't happen.
I am not leaving the Catholic faith as it feels right to me in both a spiritual and religious way, it does me good, the priests and so on are the administrators, most of the church is made up of ordinary people which make up somewhere over 99% of the church.
So when I hear of a priest who abused, and priests who abuse are a small minority, it doesn't change anything for me except feel angry and sad that someone used the church to do evil to another human being.
There was a father of an abuse victim from Cloyne on the radio during the week, his daughter was abused, he said he still is a practising Catholic.
The people here who can only criticise and there is a lot to criticise, never seen to understand that the church also gives a lot that is positive to people and the reason a lot of Catholics aren't leaving is due to the positives which helps people in their everyday life, it doesn't mean we aren't disgusted by the abusers.

The Catholic church has nothing to do with Jesus. He was adopted by the CHURCH OF ROMA to put a new spin on an old patriarchal religion which was used to brainwash and control the sheeple.Similar untruts are told of "st Patriarch" driving snakes out of Eire. The church of Roma drove underground the Irish druids and the way of Amor- LOVE.

It is also worth noting our true history re Synod of Cashel 1172 when the lands of Eire and all her people were given as slaves to King Henry 11 of England by pope Adrian 1V.This Canon law places men of god in the divine realm supposedly.???????

Read the ancient sacred texts and see where raping a child is allowed as the patriarch is the owner and the women and children possessions.

Any other human who hears the voice of the invisible god is locked away in mental hospitals- but not the men in dresses.

The Catholic church of Roma gives NOTHING to anyone- you just think it does, would like to believe it does as it saves you having to think for yourself.

RCC is a cult running a scam, making money and is a PARASITE sucking the living life out of those who are members especially the innocent energy of children. Without it, these men in dresses cannot survive as they have no inner light of their own. They are simply programmed to think they are gods representatives on Earth- all LIES.

My 4 year old could work it out asking a room full of irish people why they were all paying the man in the dress to talk to god, when they could do it themselves for free.

As long as people keep believing they need anyone else in their spiritual lives they have fallen for the scam.

Regarding rape and abuse of children in Eire.

The irish people are just as guilty of aiding and abetting the criminals- in the 1960's and 1970's our parents and other adults in the community beat the children who dared to speak of being raped or abused- simply because these men were supposed to be gods- which god??? that is the question?

it is time for every irish man and woman to reclaim their sovereignity on the Hill of Tara and Cashel.

The church of Roma took the sovereignity of our ancestors and it is our job to take it back or continue to live in slavery to the man claiming to be a shepherd.

All religions are patriarchal hierarchial institutions designed to keep people under control and obedient to the man at the top.

All religions see the sheeple as second class, especially women and children.

Min · 16-07-2011 06:15PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Really?

When did Jesus say that priests can't marry ?

When did Jesus say that every time you have sex that you should risk having a child that you don't want or can't afford ?

When did Jesus say that God's representative on Earth should tell people to STFU about child abuse ?

When did Jesus say that gay people were evil ?

When did Jesus say that priests couldn't marry or that women couldn't be priests ?

Anyway, none of that is the subject of the thread.....the thread is about what we should do about the fact that the catholic church thinks it's above the law.

I live by the Ten Commandments, not the ****ty man-made rules of someone who thinks it's OK to condone child abuse and tries to prevent the decent people in the church from exposing that abuse.

But since I realise that the pope is evil I cannot be a part of the church.

BTW - can I ask a question without being too personal ? Do you have sex before marriage and do you use condoms ? If so, you are not a catholic.

In Leviticus the book of the priests it says "They shall not marry a prostitute or a woman who has been defiled, neither shall they marry a woman divorced from her husband, for the priest is holy to his God."

So to be truly holy to God the non marriage of priests was brought in, and Jesus was not married.

In Genesis it says multiply and fill the Earth, it did not say to prevent life and to murder unborn life.

Jesus made Peter the rock on which he built his church, since then every successor of the church goes back to Peter whom Jesus chose to lead his church.

I think one would find that the Pope didn't tell people to STFU about abuse, but abuse case trials within the church should be kept secret for a fair trial so the abuser and the abused get a fair church hearing. The non reporting to the state is a different matter entirely and as Jesus said, give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's, in this the abuser is Ceasar's. There is no excuse for the non reporting to state authorities.

The church never said homosexual are evil but homosexual acts are wrong. This is stated both in Leviticus and by St Peter to the Romans.

Alreeady dealt with married priests, the male clergy is based on the 12 apostles.

The church doesn't think it is ok to condone child abuse, I am part of the church, my previous post deals with this.
The Pope is not evil, he is only Pope since 2005 and I would guess the amount of new abuse cases in that happened under his watch is something positive, we know here in Ireland the heyday for abuse was in the 70's and 80's and since then has been tapering off. Once the child protection policy is fully implemented it will be the best in this country and something the church in ireland can be proud of.

I am not married, I don't have sex before marriage so I don't need condoms, it is no big deal to me. I am happy and I have a content mind and that is what matter most to me and my faith plays a part in that.

dvpower · 16-07-2011 06:18PM

philologos wrote: »

I think we need serious action by the State, and I think the law needs to be applied and it hasn't been. I don't understand why.

One possible reason is in this current debate.
The RCC were and are used to special treatment by the state; that's why we got the indemnification deal and that's why we have enquiry after enquiry rather than garda investigations with raids on church office and documents seized.

And now, when the Government states its intention to bring in mandatory reporting we get shouts of 'No, not us, we're special' and even 'We will die before we comply.'

Freddie59 · 16-07-2011 06:19PM

Seanbeag1 wrote: »

I think Enda was a bit over-excited when he said anyone with knowledge will be prosecutable and the confessional will also be included. It won't happen.

Probably not. I've been away for a few days and watching this develop, but had no Internet access. This would be the same Enda, who, like other politicians, stood shoulder to shoulder with the same Church is decades gone by, while the state and its agents were complicit in this abuse.

As a parent and Catholic, I have never been so disgusted with the Church authorities in these past few days. What went before was bad enough - but this was truly, as they say, GUBU.

The key word in the previous sentence is 'authorities' - both Church and State. SOMEONE - and not the footsoldiers- needs to be prosecuted and jailed.

But, as I've said before, the Catholic Church is not the Institution and its rules and rulers. It is the people themselves, along with with many honest, decent, hardworking priests who have never, ever touched a child. And yet we must all suffer because of battalion of what can only be described as paedophiles.

There is no defending it - in any shape or form. My thoughts and prayers are with the victims of the abuse.

Freddie59 · 16-07-2011 06:21PM

Portia 27 wrote: »

The Catholic church has nothing to do with Jesus. He was adopted by the CHURCH OF ROMA to put a new spin on an old patriarchal religion which was used to brainwash and control the sheeple.Similar untruts are told of "st Patriarch" driving snakes out of Eire. The church of Roma drove underground the Irish druids and the way of Amor- LOVE.

It is also worth noting our true history re Synod of Cashel 1172 when the lands of Eire and all her people were given as slaves to King Henry 11 of England by pope Adrian 1V.This Canon law places men of god in the divine realm supposedly.???????

Read the ancient sacred texts and see where raping a child is allowed as the patriarch is the owner and the women and children possessions.

Any other human who hears the voice of the invisible god is locked away in mental hospitals- but not the men in dresses.

The Catholic church of Roma gives NOTHING to anyone- you just think it does, would like to believe it does as it saves you having to think for yourself.

RCC is a cult running a scam, making money and is a PARASITE sucking the living life out of those who are members especially the innocent energy of children. Without it, these men in dresses cannot survive as they have no inner light of their own. They are simply programmed to think they are gods representatives on Earth- all LIES.

My 4 year old could work it out asking a room full of irish people why they were all paying the man in the dress to talk to god, when they could do it themselves for free.

As long as people keep believing they need anyone else in their spiritual lives they have fallen for the scam.

Regarding rape and abuse of children in Eire.

The irish people are just as guilty of aiding and abetting the criminals- in the 1960's and 1970's our parents and other adults in the community beat the children who dared to speak of being raped or abused- simply because these men were supposed to be gods- which god??? that is the question?

it is time for every irish man and woman to reclaim their sovereignity on the Hill of Tara and Cashel.

The church of Roma took the sovereignity of our ancestors and it is our job to take it back or continue to live in slavery to the man claiming to be a shepherd.

All religions are patriarchal hierarchial institutions designed to keep people under control and obedient to the man at the top.

All religions see the sheeple as second class, especially women and children.

ROMA? EIRE? WTF??!!

Mickeroo · 16-07-2011 06:21PM

Min wrote: »

In Leviticus the book of the priests it says "They shall not marry a prostitute or a woman who has been defiled, neither shall they marry a woman divorced from her husband, for the priest is holy to his God."

Not being funny now but that says priests can marry virgins only.

edit: I presume it's referring, not to a priest getting married but to priests performing the marriage rite? In that case i suppose it's consistent with catholic doctrine.

Freddie59 · 16-07-2011 06:21PM

charlemont wrote: »

Some people just never knew they were conditioned and brainwashed from birth
and they see nothing wrong with it as they don't know any better, If that mentality persisted across the island 100 years ago we would still be under British rule.

Some people should learn more about history relating to the CC and this island, Hint Adrian VI

A crass and arrogant generalisation if ever there was one.

mackg · 16-07-2011 06:25PM

My apologies I thought you were opposed to the law based on this post but I just misinterpreted what you were saying.

As far as I can see it as a non-Catholic I see zero benefit in removing the confessional seal. The amount of cases where people will confess to child sexual abuse are miniscule. I was listening to RTÉ1 in the car and this discussion has dominated it all morning.

How is this law enforceable? It essentially is making something a thought crime. As was mentioned on the radio as well, how can it be ensured that people know everything they need to know to make a report from a confession given that many confessional boxes obscure the view between the priest and the penitent.

Looking to other political situations, in 2003 and 2006 it was threatened to remove the confessional seal in respect to child abuse in New Hampshire. It never happened as the chamber ruled that it was too impractical and not really all that beneficial. Other cases have arisen in Kentucky, Florida, Maryland, Virginia and Connecticut, all of these were ultimately rejected.

Many people who were contributing on the radio also said that the law of the State is above the law of private clubs and churches. This is true, but they miss the fundamental point that people discuss laws rationally before they are passed. This isn't happening. All one would have heard on RTÉ1 is hysteria.

What's the practical solution to this problem? Considering that most of the coverup happened in private meetings between the clergy and the victims it seems that the confessional doesn't come into it. Rather the dealings that clergy had come into it.

As i said I have been absent from the thread for some time.

dvpower · 16-07-2011 06:29PM

Min wrote: »

I think one would find that the Pope didn't tell people to STFU about abuse, but abuse case trials within the church should be kept secret for a fair trial so the abuser and the abused get a fair church hearing.

And this attitude is why we need mandatory reporting - the church were and are still willing to deal with abuse in-house (and we have example after example of how they dealt with it - by allowing it to continue).

The non reporting to the state is a different matter entirely and as Jesus said, give to Ceasar what is Ceasar's, in this the abuser is Ceasar's. There is no excuse for the non reporting to state authorities.

You just gave one above.

The pope is personally culpable in this cover up.

Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.

The order was made in a confidential letter, obtained by The Observer, which was sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001.
It asserted the church's right to hold its inquiries behind closed doors and keep the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood. The letter was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was elected as John Paul II's successor last week. Lawyers acting for abuse victims claim it was designed to prevent the allegations from becoming public knowledge or being investigated by the police. They accuse Ratzinger of committing a 'clear obstruction of justice'.

Dyr · 16-07-2011 06:32PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I have addressed the points being made, I just did it in as few words as possible to better get my point across.

Less of the smart-ass crap please.

Nah, you haven't, lets strip this boss analogy out for a minute, because you're either willfully ignoring the flaw that's been pointed out to you in that analogy or you just don't get it.

The hierarchy of the catholic church (and they ARE the catholic church) have tolerated and protected paedophiles in their organisation. Do you deny this?

You still support them, while claiming to abhor child abuse and the people who enable it.

This is pure cognitive dissonance, You cannot hold both positions. So which one is it?

The era of fuzzy logic and double standards is over, time to pick.

Helix · 16-07-2011 06:35PM

CatFromHue wrote: »

the confession is a major part of the catholic church. asking them to break the rules on its privacy is stupid if you ask me.

sure lets allow female circumcision which is a major part of other religions. and lets stop letting women drive, go out unaccompanied or even be educated, since that's a bit part of other religions too

cop on ffs

philologos · 16-07-2011 06:36PM

mackg: That's my post. I'm not objecting to the motivation behind the law which is inherently good. What I don't believe is that the law is going to be workable in practice.

Min · 16-07-2011 06:40PM

dvpower wrote: »

And this attitude is why we need mandatory reporting - the church were and are still willing to deal with abuse in-house (and we have example after example of how they dealt with it - by allowing it to continue).

You just gave one above.

The pope is personally culpable in this cover up.

That does not mean it shouldn't be reported to the authorities, it is dealing with church trials, the article says the churches right to hold its inquiries. It is about internal trials, one can put two and two together and get 4 or maybe it is 6, the evidence is of the church trial, does it mention about not reporting abuse to the state as what you posted was about internal trials and the evidence used in that trial.

Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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