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Catholic Church claims it is above the law

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Comments

  • #572
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Bambi wrote: »
    Oh goodie another analogy. Why not ask on the legal discussion forum if your scenario would consist of a criminal offence? Let us know the response.

    The catholic church is not a family, it is an autocracy. The only comparative modern organisations to its power structure would be military dictatorships.

    The few bad apples illusion that people are clinging to is nonsense. If Ratzinger issued that letter then he and his cohorts arethe rotten apples.

    For God's sake, are you really serious? It IS a few bad apples. That need to be rroted out. Funny how people enjoy analogies when it suits their own particular agenda though.


  • #573
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    For God's sake, are you really serious? It IS a few bad apples. That need to be rroted out. Funny how people enjoy analogies when it suits their own particular agenda though.

    One of those bad apples is your pope. So while anyone who obeys him and keeps quiet may not be a paedophile themselves, they are certainly allowing it to continue.


  • #574
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    For the one hundred millionth time YES THEY DO HAVE THAT RIGHT. But they cannot expect that right to be above the law.
    If I beat the sh1t out of someone because I am a Leo and the sun was rising in Uranus on the day of the assault making me cranky can my belief in astrology be used as a defense?


    (Hint...."NO" because its supernatural nonsense with no basis in the real world. Like the magic box with the magic man who gives you a link to god so that you can get your naughty deeds taken away)

    Some things never change, do they? That is from your perspective. You very obviously have never experienced the deep sense of faith generated by the love of God. A pity really.Then you'd be in a position to comment (or ridicule in your case).


  • #575
    HerbSimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 90 ✭✭HerbSimpson


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    For God's sake, are you really serious? It IS a few bad apples. That need to be rroted out. Funny how people enjoy analogies when it suits their own particular agenda though.

    It's the systematic cover up and protection of the bad apples by the church leaders that is disgraceful.


  • #576
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    One of those bad apples is your pope. So while anyone who obeys him and keeps quiet may not be a paedophile themselves, they are certainly allowing it to continue.

    I'd have no problem with the Pope being dismissed, if he is covering anything up. And for what it's it's worth - we answer to God.


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  • #577
    Freddie59
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    HerbSimpson wrote: »
    It's the systematic cover up and protection of the bad apples by the church leaders that is disgraceful.

    No quibbles from me on that score. I agree 100%.


  • #578
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Some things never change, do they? That is from your perspective. You very obviously have never experienced the deep sense of faith generated by the love of God. A pity really.Then you'd be in a position to comment (or ridicule in your case).

    Yet again, the love of, or existence of, God is irrelevant to the discussion.

    The local drug-dealer might believe in God; it doesn't mean that he's not a low-life who should be subject to the rigours of the law.

    As far as I can remember, the Mafia viewed themselves as religious and believed in God.....does that absolve them of their crimes ? Does it allow them to "judge their own" and not be subject to the laws of the land ?


  • #579
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    For God's sake, are you really serious? It IS a few bad apples. That need to be rroted out. Funny how people enjoy analogies when it suits their own particular agenda though.

    Ok so if we root out the Pope and The Bishops and down through the "bad" Priests and "bad" Nuns you are left with a leader less religion with no hierarchy and nobody to hold your hands and tell you how to think. You are free to be grown ups. Rather like most pagan religions / beliefs. Great idea but somehow i dont think thats what The Flock (baaaaaaa) would like....


  • #580
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    I'd have no problem with the Pope being dismissed, if he is covering anything up. And for what it's it's worth - we answer to God.

    What do you mean "if" ????? :eek:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/17/religion.childprotection
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7093936.ece
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/world/europe/25vatican.html


  • #581
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Some things never change, do they? That is from your perspective. You very obviously have never experienced the deep sense of faith generated by the love of God. A pity really.Then you'd be in a position to comment (or ridicule in your case).

    I did once but that was just the acid kicking in. Body of christ, tab of strawberry - samey same.


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  • #582
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Some things never change, do they? That is from your perspective. You very obviously have never experienced the deep sense of faith generated by the love of God. A pity really.Then you'd be in a position to comment (or ridicule in your case).

    Ok. I really really believe in astrology and it gives me a great feeling of oneness with the Universe. Can I use it in court?

    Can I get this right. If any belief moves people deeply then it receives special treatment under law.... or just your beliefs?


  • #583
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,670 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Ok. I really really believe in astrology and it gives me a great feeling of oneness with the Universe. Can I use it in court?

    Can I get this right. If any belief moves people deeply then it receives special treatment under law.... or just your beliefs?

    Isn't it obvious? Christian beliefs are the only right ones. Sure you still have to swear on the bible in court don't you?


  • #584
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Some things never change, do they? That is from your perspective. You very obviously have never experienced the deep sense of faith generated by the love of God. A pity really.Then you'd be in a position to comment (or ridicule in your case).

    I think a question that we should be asking is what in an Ireland post-Ferns, post-Ryan, post-Murphy, and post-Cloyne would Jesus say? It's a crying shame and I can understand why many people will unfortunately never step into a church and never give God their due consideration ever again.

    It's up to us as Christians, no matter what denomination to care about this and to ask the hard questions and keep all churches to account for their wrongdoing. We have a responsibility to God, to the State and to others to let the truth be known. The fact that the truth was hidden for so long is sickening. The fact that countless people who were abused were treated as nothing is sickening.


  • #585
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    philologos wrote: »
    I think a question that we should be asking is what in an Ireland post-Ferns, post-Ryan, post-Murphy, and post-Cloyne would Jesus say? It's a crying shame and I can understand why many people will unfortunately never step into a church and never give God their due consideration ever again.

    Why the latter ? I'll probably be refusing invites to weddings & other church-related stuff, but nothing will change in terms of God and my hope that he's there and listening.


  • #586
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Why the latter ? I'll probably be refusing invites to weddings & other church-related stuff, but nothing will change in terms of God and my hope that he's there and listening.

    If so, I'm encouraged, but I don't believe this will be true of many.


  • #587
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    Isn't it obvious? Christian beliefs are the only right ones. Sure you still have to swear on the bible in court don't you?

    Nope. Catholic beliefs are the only right ones.


  • #588
    toby08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭toby08


    some people will praise the church no matter what even if their own family members had suffered, the comment a few bad apples is wearing thin the biggest cause of concern for most people catholics or not is the official cover up that has existed from the lowest priest to the pope himself.
    because of the organised attitude displayed,it is a reason in itself that a crime must be reported.....the law of the land must be obeyed and failure to report a crime must be punished. A church must not and cannot be higher than the laws of the society in which it is allowed to exist.......


  • #589
    lucozader
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 589 ✭✭✭lucozader


    the irish government should put out an arrest warrant for the pope

    they should request his extradition from every country he visits

    maby one will say yes


  • #590
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    HerbSimpson wrote: »
    It's the systematic cover up and protection of the bad apples by the church leaders that is disgraceful.

    In all fairness no-one is refuting that point.

    We are merely saying you cannot every priest one brush nor can you blame every churchgoer/believer for the abuse.


  • #591
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    In all fairness no-one is refuting that point.

    We are merely saying you cannot every priest one brush nor can you blame every churchgoer/believer for the abuse.

    WHY DO YOU KEEP REPEATING THIS ON THIS THREAD WHY
    Show me a post where this has been said...
    Your posts are the most mind bogglingly stupid one dimensional posts i have ever encountered.


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  • #592
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    WHY DO YOU KEEP REPEATING THIS ON THIS THREAD WHY

    Because people seem to be neglecting this fact.

    No-one has actually said its ok to abuse children and to cover it up but you and others seem to think that's how we feel.

    Really you need to remove that chip off your shoulder.


  • #593
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Because people seem to be neglecting this fact.

    No-one has actually said its ok to abuse children and to cover it up but you and others seem to think that's how we feel.

    Really you need to remove that chip off your shoulder.

    What? You keep making allegations of statements which have not been made. Cannot link to a single post and i have the chip on my shoulder? WHO HAS TARRED ALL PRIESTS WITH THE SAME BRUSH ON THIS THREAD.?????
    WHAT FACT ARE WE NEGLECTING? THIS FACT IS IN YOUR HEAD NOT IN THIS THREAD SO WE POSSIBLY ARE MISSING IT!!!

    Jaysas but your posts are odd and infuriating


  • #594
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    What? You keep making allegations of statements which have not been made. Cannot link to a single post and i have the chip on my shoulder? WHO HAS TARRED ALL PRIESTS WITH THE SAME BRUSH ON THIS THREAD.?????

    The very nature of thread tars them all.

    Look I'm not going to argue with you because you have clearly decided you are right and everyone else is wrong so it isn't worth my while.

    But you do indeed have a large chip on your shoulder and you would do well to lose it.


  • #595
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    THIS ONE IS FOR AUDREY:
    Every single Priest and Nun on the island of Ireland is a kiddy fiddling torturer and are guilty by association and all us Homosexual Commie Atheists believe this to be true...


  • #596
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    The very nature of thread tars them all.

    Look I'm not going to argue with you because you have clearly decided you are right and everyone else is wrong so it isn't worth my while.

    But you do indeed have a large chip on your shoulder and you would do well to lose it.

    Pathetic. So very pathetic. The thread is about The RCC thinking canon law is above State law. You just hate all and any critique of The RCC because you think you are a catholic (Youre not though)


  • #597
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    THIS ONE IS FOR AUDREY:
    Every single Priest and Nun on the island of Ireland is a kiddy fiddling torturer and are guilty by association and all us Homosexual Commie Atheists believe this to be true...

    What :confused:

    That makes no sense at all.


  • #598
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    What :confused:

    That makes no sense at all.

    THis is what you have been arguing against since you joined this thread despite the fact that this comment and sentiment did not exist until i made it just now. Im helping your screwed up mantra of an argument.
    Feel free to link to it from now on if it helps.


  • #599
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Because people seem to be neglecting this fact.

    No-one has actually said its ok to abuse children and to cover it up but you and others seem to think that's how we feel.

    Not one person has tarred everyone with the same brush.

    There are multiple different levels of culpability and condoning.

    1) The sickos that did the abuse
    2) The sickos that covered it up and moved those around to rape more kids
    3) The ones who kept their mouth shut about both of the above
    4) The people who excuse the above claiming that canon law is relevant and sufficient
    5) The people who don't quite excuse it but still support the catholic church despite it being rotten to the core

    So that's 5 brushes. And even otherwise perfectly decent priests have some culpability in terms of 4 & 5. But they are definitely not being tarred with 1, 2 or 3, and there is a small chance that some of those decent priests didn't even know it was going on.......although that's doubtful since they would have been issued with or heard the STFU letters and are therefore not completely "innocent".

    Anyone who remains loyal to the church is in category 5.

    So can I ask what in the church you are remaining loyal to ?

    1) The pope ? Does he still have a status in your eyes despite his crimes ?
    2) The laws of the church which include its stance on canon law superceding criminal law (the actual subject of this thread)
    3) The other laws of the church including those re sex-before-marraige, contraception, gay activities, etc ?

    Since we're dragging this off-topic and into general "what does the church stand for" territory, can you explain why priests are against a zero-alcohol driving limit, despite their supposed BELIEF that the wine has been transformed into Christ's blood ?

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,515070,00.html

    Footnote : Personally I'd prefer to leave all of the above crap out of the discussion and just deal with the main topic - why some people believe that the church is above the law and still believe that the pope is someone to be revered/admired/obeyed. But since you repeatedly refuse to discuss just that, maybe we could start a general discussion on the relevance of the thread and then someone could move all posts related to that into their own relevant thread and leave this one to discuss why the catholic church believes that it's above the law.


  • #600
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,182 ✭✭✭dvpower


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Because people seem to be neglecting this fact.
    No one is neglecting that fact. Perhaps its not being mentioned because its self evident.

    Ordinary catholic clergy and laity might ask themselves if they are giving those who bear responsibility in their organisation an easy ride. For example, if the Pope does visit next year for the eucharistic congress, will they be out protesting or cheering?


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  • #601
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Not one person has tarred everyone with the same brush.

    There are multiple different levels of culpability and condoning.

    1) The sickos that did the abuse
    2) The sickos that covered it up and moved those around to rape more kids
    3) The ones who kept their mouth shut about both of the above
    4) The people who excuse the above claiming that canon law is relevant and sufficient
    5) The people who don't quite excuse it but still support the catholic church despite it being rotten to the core

    So that's 5 brushes. And even otherwise perfectly decent priests have some culpability in terms of 4 & 5. But they are definitely not being tarred with 1, 2 or 3, and there is a small chance that some of those decent priests didn't even know it was going on.......although that's doubtful since they would have been issued with or heard the STFU letters and are therefore not completely "innocent".

    Can I ask what in the church you are remaining loyal to ?

    The pope ?
    The laws of the church which include its stance on canon law superceding criminal law (the actual subject of this thread)
    The other laws of the church including those re sex-before-marraige, gay activities, etc

    But since we're dragging this off-topic and into general "what does the church stand for" territory, can you explain why priests are against a zero-alcohol driving limit, despite their supposed BELIEF that the wine has been transformed into Christ's blood ?

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,515070,00.html

    Footnote : Personally I'd prefer to leave all of the above crap out of the discussion and just deal with the main topic - why some people believe that the church is above the law and still believe that the pope is someone to be revered/admired/obeyed. But since you repeatedly refuse to discuss just that, maybe we could start a general discussion on the relevance of the thread and then someone could move all posts related to that into their own relevant thread and leave this one to discuss why the catholic church believes that it's above the law.

    Good question. Some days shes catholic and other days shes Christian. Linky


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