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Should the Vatican state's ambassador in Ireland be expelled?

13

Comments

  • #62
    LoonyLovegood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,068 ✭✭✭LoonyLovegood


    I wouldn't like him to be.

    Yes, the church fúcked up. But what about the priests who (a) DIDN'T hurt kids, and/or (b) told the Bishops in charge, who did nothing.

    We're all quick to point the finger, but what if it's not deserved? I'm probably biased a bit, the present Papal Nuncio did my confirmation. But, the fact is, he didn't do anything.

    We're only seeing one side of this story, remember that.


  • #63
    gigino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭gigino


    Yes, until the Vatican state agrees to respect Irish law
    Turkana wrote: »
    Kick him the fcuk out of this country. And he should be rogered with a turnip so he truly realizes the crime he is privy to.

    +1. And we should not have a bloody embassy in the Vatican, especially considering our public finances. There was / is too much collusion between the paedo church / church which protects paedos, and the Irish state.


  • #64
    plein de force
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭plein de force


    No
    This is a state that has been complicit in the raping of irish children and its attempted cover-up showing a disregard to the victims and to the laws of another state so yes of course they should be, especially when the vatican is of no use to us


  • #65
    Turkana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 99 ✭✭Turkana


    Yes, until the Vatican state agrees to respect Irish law
    CTYIgirl wrote: »
    I wouldn't like him to be.

    Yes, the church fúcked up. But what about the priests who (a) DIDN'T hurt kids, and/or (b) told the Bishops in charge, who did nothing.

    We're all quick to point the finger, but what if it's not deserved? I'm probably biased a bit, the present Papal Nuncio did my confirmation. But, the fact is, he didn't do anything.

    We're only seeing one side of this story, remember that.

    Yeah... we're seeing the side of the story that matters. I don't feel sorry for any priest that didn't rape a child. They are all complicit. Not one whistle-blower from the whole lot of them!! Is that fcuking ridiculous or what?!!! And you know it's not just Ireland that was affected. Kids as far away as Africa have been raped.

    This man, papal nuncio, whatever the fcuk he's called, represents a corrupt mafia-like religion/state which allowed childrens arses to be raped to smithereens and he helped cover up the tracks. This man has blood on his hands - arse blood!

    It really is high time that the people of Ireland realize the pain and suffering this institution has caused. What will it take? Live x-rated videos with blood-curdling screams for mammy? It's a fcuking ridiculous state of affairs.

    Kick him the fuck out and turn the churches into historical relics from the second dark age of history.


  • #66
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    No
    hmmm wrote: »
    Yes, if any other members club in this country decided it wasn't going to follow Irish law their leaders would be in jail.

    As is now very, very, very clear this is precisely what the Vatican state instructed its employees in Ireland to do.


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  • #67
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    No
    Dionysus wrote: »
    I am googling ('googling' is not yet a word on this Google Chrome spellchecker!) for precedents in the EU where one EU state has expelled a diplomat from another EU state. I know the Vatican state is not in the EU but....

    There are plenty of examples of EU states expelling ambassadors from non-EU states - most recently Libya - but does anybody have a precedent of one EU, or even one European, state expelling the ambassador from another EU, or even European, state?

    I can't even find that the Irish state expelled the British ambassador in February 1972, even though the British embassy in Dublin was burned to the ground on 2 February 1972 (3 days after Bloody Sunday).

    Any European precedents, anybody?


    Not exactly what you are asking for but Ireland did expel an Israeli embassy staff member last year.


  • #68
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    No
    Alan Shatter is on RTÉ Radio 1 this minute talking with Rachel English about whether or not the Vatican's ambassador/papal nuncio should be expelled


  • #69
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    No
    Patsy McGarry and David Quinn are engaged in a big fight now. Quinn is obnoxious in his defence of the Roman Catholic church.


    General agreement for expelling the Papal Nuncio.


  • #70
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    No
    CTYIgirl wrote: »
    I wouldn't like him to be.

    Yes, the church fúcked up. But what about the priests who (a) DIDN'T hurt kids, and/or (b) told the Bishops in charge, who did nothing.
    The institution as a whole is corrupted though, just because there's some nice one's in there doesn't mean the institution should be let off. I just don't see how they can say they support this institution when it has no respect for the people in it's church.
    We're only seeing one side of this story, remember that.
    How so?


  • #71
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,227 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Rented Mule wrote: »
    'He' is not the person guilty of a crime. 'He' is the representative of a country that conspiring to protect rapists and paedophiles at the expense of the safety of Irish children.

    Do we expell everyone that represents a country that has harmed irish people? How far back is the cut off?

    I'm all for erradicating any and all influence the catholic church and any other religion has over people but ubless the guy has done something to warrant being expelled himself he should be free to travel where he wants.


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  • #72
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    No
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Do we expell everyone that represents a country that has harmed irish people? How far back is the cut off?
    If we're to use the obvious example here, the UK. The UK has changed they way it's governed, apologised, backed us in all sorts of ways and become our allies. The most important thing is they changed, it would no longer be possible for them to do what they did to us in the past.

    The church doesn't and won't change, they're still as much of a threat as they always where.


  • #73
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Yes, until the Vatican state agrees to respect Irish law
    plein de force wrote: »
    This is a state that has been complicit in the raping of irish children and its attempted cover-up showing a disregard to the victims and to the laws of another state so yes of course they should be, especially when the vatican is of no use to us
    You forgot a couple...

    * Turned a blind eye to crimes while abuse still ongoing
    * Vatican state cover-up at top and local levels.
    * Total disregard for victims and their telling of crimes committed upon them.
    * Disregarding of present Irish laws.
    * Quietly sneaking abusers around and in/out of the country.
    * Refusing still to pay their €375m part, they are supposed to give to victims in compensation.


    If any other body/business in the country behaved like above - regardless of there is one or two also good people in it - the body/business would be held accountable under Irish law.
    The Rome org is no different. Laws of the land apply to them too. If they don't like Irish laws, they have the option to sod off!


  • #74
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ScumLord wrote: »
    The institution as a whole is corrupted though, just because there's some nice one's in there doesn't mean the institution should be let off. I just don't see how they can say they support this institution when it has no respect for the people in it's church.

    Wouldn't the pragmatic solution to this be to treat it as any other gross violation of justice is treated. Bring those accused to a court of law, and prosecute those who are found to be guilty and acquit those who are found to be innocent?

    No need to boot out the innocent, just make sure that the guilty are held to full account which includes financial account in terms of honouring the €375bn they owe to the State.


  • #75
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    No
    philologos wrote: »
    Wouldn't the pragmatic solution to this be to treat it as any other gross violation of justice is treated. Bring those accused to a court of law, and prosecute those who are found to be guilty and acquit those who are found to be innocent?
    No because the institution and environment that breed and enabled these atrocities to take place is still the same as it ever was. Their secrecy and self righteousness could allow for all this and similar to happen all over again at some stage down the road.


  • #76
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ScumLord wrote: »
    No because the institution and environment that breed and enabled these atrocities to take place is still the same as it ever was. Their secrecy and self righteousness could allow for all this and similar to happen all over again at some stage down the road.

    The problem isn't whether or not to kick out the Nuncio that has zero relevance to solving the problem. That is so minuscule.

    Edit: From wikipedia.
    As per 2002 agreement between the victims on one side and the Roman Catholic brothers and Irish government on other side, all those who accepted the state/Brothers settlements, had to waive their right to sue both the church and the government. Their abusers' identities are also kept secret.

    This agreement is a problem as far as I see it. For as long as the abusers identities are kept secret it is difficult to determine how there can be justice for what was done.

    The problem is that we've failed to show that there is a single law in this country for all. If you have abused a child, you need to be brought to justice irrespective of what creed you follow or any other factor.

    This case should be treated exactly as other cases are if we are going to argue for one law for all people. If we are going to go beyond this or indeed below this we are showing that there isn't in fact one law for one people.


  • #77
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    No
    philologos wrote: »
    No need to boot out the innocent, just make sure that the guilty are held to full account which includes financial account in terms of honouring the €375bn they owe to the State.

    They are not "innocent". As has been explained ad nauseam in this thread it is the office which is expelled when an ambassador is expelled. The office is the Vatican state and there is extensive evidence that the Vatican state has conspired against Irish citizens, subverted Irish law, protected abusers and endangered the lives and well being of Irish citizens.


  • #78
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    How is the Papal Nuncio guilty and how would booting him out make anything better? Or is it just an emotional response to the issue?

    How about we tackle the actual problem on a criminal level?


  • #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No
    philologos: out of curiosity, where does the €375bn figure come from? I had thought it was far less than that.


  • #80
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    No
    Dionysus wrote: »
    They are not "innocent". As has been explained ad nauseam in this thread it is the office which is expelled when an ambassador is expelled. The office is the Vatican state and there is extensive evidence that the Vatican state has conspired against Irish citizens, subverted Irish law, protected abusers and endangered the lives and well being of Irish citizens.

    The same few poster are at the same crap on the "Catholic Church thinks it is above the law" thread.
    The "Dont tar then all with the same brush" line is being trotted out ad nauseum even though this has barely happened in the thread by and large.
    Its very very wearying.
    Catholics in ever decreasing circle of argument eh?


  • #81
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    No
    philologos wrote: »
    How is the Papal Nuncio guilty and how would booting him out make anything better? Or is it just an emotional response to the issue?

    How about we tackle the actual problem on a criminal level?

    Cos its his job............


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  • #82
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    gvn wrote: »
    philologos: out of curiosity, where does the €375bn figure come from? I had thought it was far less than that.

    Apologies. I meant million not billion. Rudimentary mistake. :o

    The most recent agreement is that the RCC pay half the cost of the settlement. They have paid in the region of €300mn already there is about €375mn outstanding.

    Under Michael Woods they were expected to pay €125mn but the bill became much larger than the Government expected and as such it was revised.


  • #83
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Cos its his job............

    It's his job to tackle the problem on a legal level? As far as I'm aware that's the State's job. All of these people should be prosecuted to the full extent of law. Until the abusers themselves are brought to justice I think it is meaningless to talk about expelling the Papal Nuncio.


  • #84
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,372 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    We should close our Vatican embassy. It's not really needed, and costs a lot.


  • #85
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    No
    philologos wrote: »
    It's his job to tackle the problem on a legal level? As far as I'm aware that's the State's job. All of these people should be prosecuted to the full extent of law.

    No his job is as the Ambassador for The Vatican. Dont be obtuse.


  • #86
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    No his job is as the Ambassador for The Vatican. Dont be obtuse.

    OK, but I fail to see how kicking him out is solving the problem. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the child abusers haven't been prosecuted. Unless that happens I see any other action as just hard talking.


  • #87
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    No
    philologos wrote: »
    OK, but I fail to see how kicking him out is solving the problem. You seem to be ignoring the fact that the child abusers haven't been prosecuted. Unless that happens I see any other action as just hard talking.

    Who said its solving the problem?
    It is taking a stance and sending a message. The guy and his organisation has shown contempt for us and our children and is not welcome.
    By the same logic why prosecute anyone as it wont unabuse any children.


  • #88
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I just think that we need to kick emotional responses to the backseat and focus on actually dealing with this issue full on. I don't see what difference kicking the Papal Nuncio makes on a tangible level.

    If you want to show that there is no church or organisation above the law what you do is enforce the law on an equitable basis to all. If you commit illegal acts you will be prosecuted and you will be arrested. It doesn't matter what church you go to, it doesn't matter what you believe.

    I'd be satisfied with that.

    And it isn't the same logic to say why prosecute anyone. It would be absurd to say that. Bringing people to justice is important. Kicking someone out to "send a message" isn't actually sending a message. The message that needs to be sent is one law, one people, in one country.


  • #89
    previous user
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭previous user


    Yes, until the Vatican state agrees to respect Irish law
    Drowned in piss.


  • #90
    ShadowGal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 865 ✭✭✭ShadowGal


    CTYIgirl wrote: »
    I wouldn't like him to be.

    Yes, the church fúcked up. But what about the priests who (a) DIDN'T hurt kids, and/or (b) told the Bishops in charge, who did nothing.

    We're all quick to point the finger, but what if it's not deserved? I'm probably biased a bit, the present Papal Nuncio did my confirmation. But, the fact is, he didn't do anything.

    We're only seeing one side of this story, remember that.

    One side is enough. Its an organization. If you were joined a bank and that bank screwed you and a lot of people over, would you invest more money in that bank ?? i wouldnt.


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  • #91
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    No
    CTYIgirl wrote: »
    I wouldn't like him to be.

    Yes, the church fúcked up. But what about the priests who (a) DIDN'T hurt kids, and/or (b) told the Bishops in charge, who did nothing.

    We're all quick to point the finger, but what if it's not deserved? I'm probably biased a bit, the present Papal Nuncio did my confirmation. But, the fact is, he didn't do anything.

    We're only seeing one side of this story, remember that.

    Nope. After a very very long time and long drawn out investigation we are seeing the other side of the story.

    And re The papal Nuncio it is his official office we would be expeling not the person FFS!!!!!!


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