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Cloynes Report, Christianity, etc etc

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Comments

  • #92
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    housetypeb wrote: »
    Lay people do abuse children but I doubt that they could count on their peers to keep quite about it, as seems to be the case in the catholic church.

    Well you'd be wrong there, as many of the scandals in sporting societies etc. have shown, not everyone believes accusations. Problem is rumours or not, everyone is innocent under the law until the state prove them guilty beyond all reasonable doubt in a proper court of law, suspect or not, you can't go around accusing people in any other walk of life.


  • #93
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    fontanalis wrote: »
    Not guilty, but the institution that is the catholic church still with no credibility.

    Then by that logic no one in Ireland has any credibility because of crimes committed by other Irish citizens.


  • #94
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    fontanalis wrote: »
    The Irish State and Anglo are gods representatives on earth now?

    Money is their God, they have got off scott free.


  • #95
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    Ok, so where does that leave the 90% of Priests, 75% of Bishops, and 90% of the lay people who are not guilty ?

    All of the above are guilty of collusion. They support the status quo.
    As their bible states...'all that evil needs is for good men to stand by and do nothing'
    Take the buildings back, found our own church based on proper morals....what's the Vatican gonna do? Invade?


  • #96
    housetypeb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭housetypeb


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    Well you'd be wrong there, as many of the scandals in sporting societies etc. have shown, not everyone believes accusations. Problem is rumours or not, everyone is innocent under the law until the state prove them guilty beyond all reasonable doubt in a proper court of law, suspect or not, you can't go around accusing people in any other walk of life.

    Crying persecution now for the priests,are you?


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  • #97
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    All of the above are guilty of collusion. They support the status quo.
    As their bible states...'all that evil needs is for good men to stand by and do nothing'

    So where does that leave the golden principle of justice that everyone is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law ?

    As an Irish citizen are you guilty of collusion in the financial scandals that went on in this country ?


  • #98
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    philologos wrote: »
    If they genuinely believed that people would never find out that's the height of naivety.
    I'm not sure that you appreciate the power of the church in this country 30 years ago.

    Have a read of the following if you're in any doubt:

    http://www.obrien.ie/book464.cfm


  • #99
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I'm aware of the power. The power didn't stop the inevitable happening that is the news coming out.


  • #100
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »

    As an Irish citizen are you guilty of collusion in the financial scandals that went on in this country ?

    Are you equating financial irregularity with what has been going on in the church? Are you that desperate for your smells and bells?


  • #101
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    housetypeb wrote: »
    Crying persecution now for the priests,are you?

    The only one who mentioned persecution is you.


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  • #102
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Are you equating financial irregularity with what has been going on in the church? Are you that desperate for your smells and bells?

    Ad hominem does't work with me. Stay on point.

    You claim all Catholics are guilty of collusion because they are Catholic, if so why are all Irish Citizens not guilty of collusion regarding the national financial corruption? Why are all Dubliners not guilty of collusion for the crimes of other Dubliners ? etc. etc. etc.


  • #103
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    Ok, so where does that leave the 90% of Priests, 75% of Bishops, and 90% of the lay people who are not guilty ?
    As I said above, I don't believe for a second that the 25% of bishops who are known to have known about the problem is accurate. I believe that 100% of them knew about it -- it was their job to know what their priests were up to. Same as I believe that the vast majority of priests knew about it as well.

    Hell, no less a man than Ratzinger himself approved the transfer of a known child abuser to another position in which he went on to reoffend:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/world/europe/26church.html


  • #104
    housetypeb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,197 ✭✭✭housetypeb


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    The only one who mentioned persecution is you.

    You said---"you can't go around accusing people in any other walk of life".

    Which seems to me that you feel that that priests are persecuted.


  • #105
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    philologos wrote: »
    The power didn't stop the inevitable happening that is the news coming out.
    From 30 years ago, their power began to weaken. Remember that they kept wraps on it for heaven knows how long without so much as a whisper getting out into the more general public, despite the most appalling abuses happening.

    As I said, I don't think you appreciate the sheer political power of the church back then.

    I was a kid myself during the 1970's and even up to my early teens then, you could sense the dread power of the institution and the total respect it commanded in rural Ireland. Actually, it was the great Eamonn Casey who gave me first communion and did so much to make me the catholic I am today -- thanks, bish!


  • #106
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    As their bible states...'all that evil needs is for good men to stand by and do nothing'
    Far too good a sentiment for the bible.

    It was the 18th century Irish politician, thinker and orator, Edmund Burke who said that.


  • #107
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    Ad hominem does't work with me. Stay on point.

    You claim all Catholics are guilty of collusion because they are Catholic, if so why are all Irish Citizens not guilty of collusion regarding the national financial corruption? Why are all Dubliners not guilty of collusion for the crimes of other Dubliners ? etc. etc. etc.

    Anybody who continues to support the church...by attending or by upholding it's offices is guilty of collusion. Many have left...but retain their faith and spirituality.....fair play to them, I know it isn't easy. But it is the only course now for true Christians.

    Would you condone somebody who gave support and succour to the Nazis?
    In the world of moral integrity there are no grey areas.


  • #108
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    robindch wrote: »
    Far too good a sentiment for the bible.

    It was the 18th century Irish politician, thinker and orator, Edmund Burke who said that.

    Correct, I was getting carried away!...lol


  • #109
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    housetypeb wrote: »
    You said---"you can't go around accusing people in any other walk of life".

    Which seems to me that you feel that that priests are persecuted.

    No it means you cannot accuse someone of being guilty until they are proven by the state to be so. That's justice, no matter who you are.


  • #110
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Anybody who continues to support the church...by attending or by upholding it's offices is guilty of collusion. Many have left...but retain their faith and spirituality.....fair play to them, I know it isn't easy. But it is the only course now for true Christians.

    Would you condone somebody who gave support and succour to the Nazis?
    In the world of moral integrity there are no grey areas.

    So were all Germans guilty for the crimes of the Nazi's ?


  • #111
    zeris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 401 ✭✭zeris


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    So were all Germans guilty for the crimes of the Nazi's ?

    No, but Germans who voluntarily joined the party need to take a hard look at themselves and who they supported.


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  • #112
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    So were all Germans guilty for the crimes of the Nazi's ?

    Godwin strikes again. :pac:


  • #113
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    No it means you cannot accuse someone of being guilty until they are proven by the state to be so. That's justice, no matter who you are.
    Well, actually you can accuse them of being guilty, that is what happens in court. A person, let's call them "the accused", is, well, accused of a crime. It is then up to the prosecutor to prove they were guilty.

    MrP


  • #114
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    So were all Germans guilty for the crimes of the Nazi's ?

    No...only those who supported the Nazis in any way.


  • #115
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    Godwin strikes again. :pac:

    Who was the first to mention them ?


  • #116
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    zeris wrote: »
    No, but Germans who voluntarily joined the party need to take a hard look at themselves and who they supported.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    No...only those who supported the Nazis in any way.

    So let me get this right, in your opinion, the crux of your point is that being a Catholic is equivalent to being a Nazi ?


  • #117
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    So let me get this right, in your opinion, the crux of your point is that being a Catholic is equivalent to being a Nazi ?

    No.


  • #118
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    So let me get this right, in your opinion, the crux of your point is that being a Catholic is equivalent to being a Nazi ?

    I think they were going for something along the lines of 'the people who continue to support the hierarchy of the RCC are equivalent to the people who continued to support the Nazi hierarchy after the Holocaust came to be public knowledge' ...or something.


  • #119
    Bob Cratchet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭Bob Cratchet


    strobe wrote: »
    I think they were going for something along the lines of 'the people who continue to support the hierarchy of the RCC are equivalent to the people who continued to support the Nazi hierarchy after the Holocaust came to be public knowledge' ...or something.

    I for one would be delighted to see any guilty hierarchy and those who knowingly facilitated them convicted and thrown in gaol.
    So bearing in mind the principles of justice ;
    Which hierarchy are guilty of covering up Child abuse ? What % ?
    How does the law make safe convictions ?


  • #120
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    I for one would be delighted to see any guilty hierarchy convicted and thrown in jail.
    So bearing in mind the principles of justice ;
    Which hierarchy are guilty of covering up Child abuse ? What % ?
    How does the law make safe convictions ?

    What are you asking me for? I'm no law talking guy.


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  • #121
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Bob Cratchet wrote: »
    Which hierarchy are guilty of covering up Child abuse ? What % ?

    Successive popes for starters. Then any number after that.


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