has anyone here ever seen a funeral of a suicide casualty?

Forest Master · 13-07-2011 01:16PM

Rubik. wrote: »

90% of those who die from suicide have an underlying mental illness.

Back that stat up, please.

Millicent · 13-07-2011 01:16PM

I'd like to also challenge the assumption that everyone who is suicidal has a support system who cares for them. Suicide is never the answer but many people who get to that point don't have an effective support system.

Talking, listening and understanding help a suicidal person back from the brink. Saying that they are selfish rarely does.

Sykk · 13-07-2011 01:16PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

It is a selfish mean act that destroys more than just one life.

bluewolf wrote: »

How exactly is someone going to react when they tell you they want to commit suicide and the reaction is "that's selfish and mean"? Think that'll help?!

There's two valid points, though largely either side of the line.

Suicide is a terrible thing for many reasons but one being the pain and suffering it will cause to the people who love you...

While at the same time depression is one of the worst things on the planet. When someone just wants it all to end and the depression overcomes everything.

Horrible...

flahavaj · 13-07-2011 01:17PM

I have had a person close to me attempt suicide and I would never throw it in their face about it being a selfich act, or even go there with them as it would be very insensitive. But privately there is a big part of me that thinks there is an element of selfishness to it. I can't relly help feeling that, despite having quite a good insight into the person's state of mind at the time and how they feel they're doing the world a favour etc. It would have destroyed so many lives, beyond repair in many cases.:(

Forest Master · 13-07-2011 01:22PM

My friend's brother killed himself around 6 years ago. At the funeral, looking at his family - especially his mother, all I could think was "you selfish, weak, c*nt". I can't help that I felt like that. But I just thought it was such a pathetic & weak way out of a few problems that could have been fixed.

Sunnyisland · 13-07-2011 01:26PM

I was at one on monday & two months ago I was at another one.Both young people. Suicide is a huge problem/issue in our society and suicide prevention counselling etc is not given the right attention or awareness that it deserves.imo.

Hannibal Smith · 13-07-2011 01:27PM

Forest Master wrote: »

My friend's brother killed himself around 6 years ago. At the funeral, looking at his family - especially his mother, all I could think was "you selfish, weak, c*nt". I can't help that I felt like that. But I just thought it was such a pathetic & weak way out of a few problems that could have been fixed.

My friend's brother committed suicide, years ago...he was in his early 20's..I didn't go to the funeral, we weren't that close, but I went to the removal. I was looking at the family and how broken they were and all I kept think was...'there was no need for this'

Morlar · 13-07-2011 01:28PM

Millicent wrote: »

I'm sorry if that's the view you want to hold firm to but it's not the case for most suicide attempts. How can something that runs contrary to the survival instinct be inherently selfish? It's an oxymoron.

It's not a matter of holding a view you want to hold firm to - it's a matter that this is my view, based on life experience.

Can you explain why suicide being counter to the survival instinct prevents it from being a selfish act ?

I would argue that the person committing suicide does so for their own percieved benefit. To end their suffering, regardless of the suffering this act will inflict on others. So in that sense in my view it is ultimately selfish. As stated previously the persons perception may not be clear as a result of their illness, so intentionally / unknowingly or not, it is in effect a selfish act. In my view.

Blowfish · 13-07-2011 01:28PM

I've been to one, though I actually didn't know the person or their family at all really (long story). Being there but not being affected personally by the grief meant I was able to appreciate exactly just how much it affects the friends/family/collegues of the person.

Millicent wrote: »

If it's a symptom of an illness that alters your perception, then how is it selfish? I'm sorry but your post contradicts itself.

It's selfish in the same way someone with Tourette's is rude. In the strictest definition of the word it's true, but the illness is what causes it and is not in the least an intentional act by the person themselves.

seamus · 13-07-2011 01:28PM

Forest Master wrote: »

all I could think was "you selfish, weak, c*nt".

I'm not having a go at you Forest Master, as you frankly admit that it was just the way you felt. But it's no surprise that so many people suffer in silence in this country when so many people seem to think that emotional or mental problems are imaginary and that only "weak" people need help with them.

I know if I was so emotionally low that these problems seemed insurmountable and my mates were saying that people with depression just needed to cop on, or man up, or grow up or whatever, then the last thing I'd do is let anyone know that I was having problems.

Rubik. · 13-07-2011 01:32PM

Forest Master wrote: »

Back that stat up, please.

90% of people who die by suicide are thought to have one or more diagnosable mental health problems at the time they kill themselves. [5]

5. Barraclough, B, Bunch, J, Nelson, B, Sainsbury, P, (1974), ‘A Hundred Cases of Suicide: Clinical Aspects’, British Journal of Psychiatry, 125, 355-73

http://www.samaritans.org/your_emotional_health/publications/mental_health_suicide.aspx

Millicent · 13-07-2011 01:35PM

Morlar wrote: »

It's not a matter of holding a view you want to hold firm to - it's a matter that this is my view, based on life experience.

Can you explain why suicide being counter to the survival instinct prevents it from being a selfish act ?

I would argue that the person committing suicide does so for their own percieved benefit. To end their suffering, regardless of the suffering this act will inflict on others. So in that sense in my view it is ultimately selfish. As stated previously the persons perception may not be clear as a result of their illness, so intentionally / unknowingly or not, it is in effect a selfish act. In my view.

Yes, I get that it is your view. I also quite laboriously stated why this was the case in my own experience. I note that you did not attempt to even respond to the rest of that post, merely the section that you wished to reply to.

So here it is again. The fact that you feel like a constant drain on other's time, energy and patience and they would be better off without you doesn't make suicide a selfish act. For some, they really do feel like they are doing everybody a favour by saving them the hassle of putting up with their mental illness. At my worst times, I felt like an inconvenience, a nuisance and thought family and friends would be better without me after the initial grief. Again, as I said, it's not a rational thought process.

And the survival instinct dictates that every animal will strive for self-preservation through the selfish acts of eating what is available, procreating to further their own bloodline etc. Ending that life runs contrary to animal instinct which is inherently selfish.

stupidusername · 13-07-2011 01:39PM

For all those who think of it as selfish, how about you think about it from this point of view:

if someone close to you is dying of terminal illness, and decides that they want to end their life on their own terms, how many of you would try to stop them? how many would think that's being selfish?

mental illness can be the same life sentence. the pain is different, and the life is different, but what's not different is the quality of life for the person involved. if a person really feels like they can't live anymore, why would you think that you know better?

starviewadams · 13-07-2011 01:39PM

Cousin hung himself back in 2001,funeral was very sad.He always came across as a happy go lucky type person too,nobody truly knows whats going on inside someone else's head I suppose.

I suffer quite badly with depression myself and have attempted suicide once, when I was in a terrible phase nearly two years ago before I was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder.Woke up in hospital basicaly getting my wrists stitched back together,don't really remember anything about it other then waking up in hospital though,and my family still don't really like talking about it.

Hate all the ''selfish bastard'' type remarks,smacks of complete and utter ignorance.

Seachmall · 13-07-2011 01:40PM

SELFISH
1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2 : arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act> - Miriam-Webster

Those who commit suicide because they feel like they are a burden on others are not being selfish. They may have a warped perspective in comparison to the rest of us as a result of a severe mental illness but they believe they are acting to benefit others.

This isn't every case but each case of suicide is different and to label all those who end their lives as selfish is a ridiculous generalization and shows ignorance to what the person was going through.

--LOS-- · 13-07-2011 01:45PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Interestedly, suicide attempts are pretty equal across the sexes. Males are mire successful at it due to the nature of how they do it. Men normally choose a more violent end, hanging, fire arm etc
While women tend to use less violent methods, drug over dose etc.

I actually thought women attempted suicide more often than men but for the same reasons you suggest, there is a false understanding that it is a greater problem for men because of the success of their attempts compared to women.

13-07-2011 01:51PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

When you see how many people are crushed, destroyed by it you'd fücking agree. So stick your roll eyes where the sun don't shine.

I'll refrain from really expressing my true feelings for you for fear of a ban.

If anyone thought about who they leave behind and the emotional wreckage left they might think twice about going through with it.

You have to call a spade a spade.

Suicide upsets other people, but how about a bit of perspective? Do you know what depression feels like? I don't mean minor depression or a bad mood that lasts for a few weeks, I mean the real deal. Every day is absolute torture and it often goes on for months, years or decades. When you're enduring torture, you cannot consider other people because every thought is focussed on bringing pain to an end. I've had to deal with both this and grief following the death of a loved one, and what's possibly even more selfish is expecting someone in the above situation from staying alive just to appease the feelings of others.

Good job on emotionally blackmailing people. A 'mean, selfish act'? Sure, maybe. What's also selfish is expecting someone to endure that. Not only selfish, but inhumanely cruel. A person's life is their own; if they choose to end it, then so be it. The social stigma surrounding suicide is b0llocks and it needs to be recognised as such.

gazmc18 · 13-07-2011 01:56PM

Looking at the posts here i think people are getting their wires crossed a bit. I dont think anyone is suggesting that you try counsil somebody contemplating suicide by telling them that they are being selfish etc. You would obviously try get them professional help.

I know a guy who killed himself as his business was failing and was suffering from depression, he left behind 2 young kids. Now how anyone can say this is not a selfish act is beyond me. He destroyed the 2 kids and scarred them for life. These are not two random kids they are his own children. Nevermind all the rest of his family and friends. Obviously he had his own problems in his head, but to do something like that is beyond selfish!! Even in the grand scheme of things they were not even problems. Its such a shame when he could of been helped but he didnt realise it.

Dyr · 13-07-2011 01:58PM

Forest Master wrote: »

But everyone knows the church's views on suicide - why were they surprised when the priest made these snide comments? They should have done a non-religious burial, IMO.

Sad truth is that you probably have limited options outside of a catholic burial in this country. Ironic, considering our history.

ChloeElla · 13-07-2011 02:01PM

Twice. My cousin, two years ago, and the father of a girl I know this year. Both funerals were horrible, but the priests carried the ceremonies out with tact and grace. I don't think it's selfish, they thought it was for the best, they thought they were a burden to their families.

Seachmall · 13-07-2011 02:03PM

gazmc18 wrote: »

Now how anyone can say this is not a selfish act is beyond me.

If a paranoid schizophrenic disliked Jews because he genuinely believed they were reading his mind you could call him anti-semitic but you'd be judging the man by his disease, not his character.

In the example you gave of the man with 2 kids if he was mentally fit he, like most fathers, would probably die for his 2 children but he wasn't mentally fit and he made a bad choice. The act was selfish but it's impossible to say if the man was.

listermint · 13-07-2011 02:05PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Suicide upsets other people, but how about a bit of perspective? Do you know what depression feels like? I don't mean minor depression or a bad mood that lasts for a few weeks, I mean the real deal. Every day is absolute torture and it often goes on for months, years or decades. When you're enduring torture, you cannot consider other people because every thought is focussed on bringing pain to an end. I've had to deal with both this and grief following the death of a loved one, and what's possibly even more selfish is expecting someone in the above situation from staying alive just to appease the feelings of others.

Good job on emotionally blackmailing people. A 'mean, selfish act'? Sure, maybe. What's also selfish is expecting someone to endure that. Not only selfish, but inhumanely cruel. A person's life is their own; if they choose to end it, then so be it. The social stigma surrounding suicide is b0llocks and it needs to be recognised as such.

At the same time Life is very very previous. Otherwise why would we try so strenuously to preserve it. There are ways and means to tackle such depression so its evident that these channels need to be explored first.

I mean if someone has cancer the family dont just jump on it and say 'ah well lets put them down' 'it was good while it lasted' They try every medical avenue possible in hopes that it has some impact.

Suicide should never be seen as a good or first or second option. Its at best the final and last option for someone. Help should always be the first. If you don't think this is true then you have little value on how precious every life is.

Orando Broom · 13-07-2011 02:06PM

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

I'm sorry to read about your family member, but it's a shame the point behind Orando Boom's post was lost because of a few words in it.

Whether the act is selfish or not, is one thing, but suicide is never the answer, whatever state you're in and if anyone feels that low they should always try and talk to some one, anyone...even if it doesn't feel like it at the time, there is always some one who is willing to help you.

Look selective reading and quoting is king here. Most of the posters don't even read the posts just scan them and go off half-cocked.

Micky Dolenz · 13-07-2011 02:07PM

gazmc18 wrote: »

Looking at the posts here i think people are getting their wires crossed a bit. I dont think anyone is suggesting that you try counsil somebody contemplating suicide by telling them that they are being selfish etc. You would obviously try get them professional help.

I know a guy who killed himself as his business was failing and was suffering from depression, he left behind 2 young kids. Now how anyone can say this is not a selfish act is beyond me. He destroyed the 2 kids and scarred them for life. These are not two random kids they are his own children. Nevermind all the rest of his family and friends. Obviously he had his own problems in his head, but to do something like that is beyond selfish!! Even in the grand scheme of things they were not even problems. Its such a shame when he could of been helped but he didnt realise it.

You seem to have no understanding of depression and similar mental health issues. When someone is deeply depressed they become detached from the people they love the most. As someone above said, often they want to fall asleep and never wake.

Don't judge anyone until you have walked a mile in their shoe's.

Micky Dolenz · 13-07-2011 02:09PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

Look selective reading and quoting is king here. Most of the posters don't even read the posts just scan them and go off half-cocked.

Or maybe they do read it all and comment on the parts where they think differently.

Orando Broom · 13-07-2011 02:09PM

stupidusername wrote: »

For all those who think of it as selfish, how about you think about it from this point of view:

if someone close to you is dying of terminal illness, and decides that they want to end their life on their own terms, how many of you would try to stop them? how many would think that's being selfish?

mental illness can be the same life sentence. the pain is different, and the life is different, but what's not different is the quality of life for the person involved. if a person really feels like they can't live anymore, why would you think that you know better?

Miles off topic and totally irrelevant.

Jesus.

Points scoring in this thread, above all. Sick. You are not the only one at it, mind.

13-07-2011 02:10PM

listermint wrote: »

At the same time Life is very very previous. Otherwise why would we try so strenuously to preserve it. There are ways and means to tackle such depression so its evident that these channels need to be explored first.

I mean if someone has cancer the family dont just jump on it and say 'ah well lets put them down' 'it was good while it lasted' They try every medical avenue possible in hopes that it has some impact.

Suicide should never be seen as a good or first or second option. Its at best the final and last option for someone. Help should always be the first. If you don't think this is true then you have little value on how precious every life is.

Not once did I say that. I was responding to a poster who seemed to be arguing against suicide as an option in general.

Those with poor mental health have a particularly hard time in Ireland. People with depression are told to get over it, ADHD sufferers are accused of being lazy etc. Having to put up with this kind of macho bullsh!t - from people who have laughably deficient understandings of science - doesn't help.

I haven't found services particularly accessible either; general practitioners have a very flippant attitude to the subject and are quick to prescribe SSRIs over listening to their patients. Compounding all of this is the cost. Therefore, while I think everyone must seek help, I can see why some people wouldn't find it at all useful.

Edit: SSRIs can be helpful, but they're no magical cure-all.

Morlar · 13-07-2011 02:11PM

Millicent wrote: »

Yes, I get that it is your view. I also quite laboriously stated why this was the case in my own experience. I note that you did not attempt to even respond to the rest of that post, merely the section that you wished to reply to.

No, because that part was emotional and not entirely relevant in a non-emotional discussion of this subject.

Millicent wrote: »

So here it is again. The fact that you feel like a constant drain on other's time, energy and patience and they would be better off without you doesn't make suicide a selfish act. For some, they really do feel like they are doing everybody a favour by saving them the hassle of putting up with their mental illness. At my worst times, I felt like an inconvenience, a nuisance and thought family and friends would be better without me after the initial grief. Again, as I said, it's not a rational thought process.

All of that = your perception at that time.

The perception of a person who is mentally ill, or undergoing a period of severe mental and emotional stress is far from being an emotionally neutral, clear or factual perception.

It is a flawed perception. It is like looking at the world through a lump of melted glass. What they percieve is not the reality (in my opinion) and so whether or not that person percieves the selfishness of the act is irelevant to the question of whether or not it is a selfish act. It is still (imo) a selfish act, knowingly or intentionally or not.

Millicent wrote: »

And the survival instinct dictates that every animal will strive for self-preservation through the selfish acts of eating what is available, procreating to further their own bloodline etc. Ending that life runs contrary to animal instinct which is inherently selfish.

The fact that suicide is counter to the survival instinct does not make it an unselfish act. The survival instinct can be over-ridden by emotions, depression and so on, and so the survival instinct is not as much of a factor in a severely depressed person than it is in a non-severely depressed person. The human survival instinct has no relation to whether suicide is a selfish act in my opinion.

Miss Dymph · 13-07-2011 02:11PM

CorkMan wrote: »

I remember just over 11 years ago my 1st cousin hung himself. I wasn't able to attend the funeral as I was released from hospital during it but I saw the burial. My cousin's Mother and Girlfriend where on their knees on the ground when the casket was being lowered, crying out.

Has anyone else been to this type of funeral?

I fail to see what you hoped to achieve by starting this thread....Of course people have been to the kind of funeral where people cry when the coffin is lowered... People dont react in a specific way when there is a suicide involved, the loss of a person is the same regardless of how they died. If you wanted to spark a suicide debate, at least be upfront in your question or rephrase to 'Has anyone ever been to a funeral'... thats a bit more appropriate.

--LOS-- · 13-07-2011 02:12PM

The lack of understanding in these threads is so frustrating, if people don't understand I wish they would educate themselves a bit.

has anyone here ever seen a funeral of a suicide casualty?

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