has anyone here ever seen a funeral of a suicide casualty?

Agent Oso · 13-07-2011 12:24PM

Yeah I think people should know how to be able to speak up the system here is atrocious if there was more help for people around they wouldn’t resort to it. Ok maybe ‘selfish’ isn’t the correct word I would use but I was sat and told that I was, my mother is a seriously catholic woman so I knew how deep it cut her and I can accept that to her it was selfish. Maybe because I found a way out I think everyone else should. In fairness after that counselling session I was watched like a hawk in case I did a u-turn. I guess the reason I view it as that is I did do it purely as a cry for help, I wasn’t thinking rationally and like someone else said my actions could have been irreversible.

seamus · 13-07-2011 12:24PM

A very close friend's brother committed suicide two years ago. Though the suicide was never officially acknowledged as such by his parents, the funeral was very personal and they weren't afraid to talk about an "end of suffering" and so forth. The guy had battled with depression and addiction for most of his life and had never been a particularly happy person.

His eldest brother gave a very moving eulogy, almost just like he was sitting in the pub reminiscing about the good times with his younger brother.

While his death was sudden and before his time, to a certain extent it wasn't treated as "unexpected". The guy had attempted many times before, and he was so consistently in a very bad place that I don't think any of his family expected it to ever end, except in death.

It was definitely the most intense funeral I've ever been at, noticeably more emotional than one for an older person. I also spent about 48 hours with the family, the day before and the day of the funeral, so perhaps I was also closer to the emotion.
Though the guy wasn't old, he wasn't that young either.

I can't imagine the pain that's felt at the sudden suicide of a particularly young person. The death of a young person is never an easy thing, but it's made worse for their family knowing that their child was suffering so much that they believed the only way out was death.

Orando Broom · 13-07-2011 12:25PM

tbh wrote: »

well said. thinking you'll stop someone committing suicide by calling it a selfish act is the same as telling someone with clinical depression to just cheer up. All it does is display a fundamental lack of understanding.

I'm not sure anyone is advocating that on the board.

The definition of a selfish act is one that only has a sole benefit to the actor. I am aware this is an emotive issue but to deny the inherent selfishness of the act is to give the merest hint of credence to the notion that the acts benefits others aside for the actor. It simply does not.

Whether the actor believes that it will have benefits for others radiating away from the act is irrelevant because we do not know conclusively that this is their own belief and secondly we can conclusively state that the act does not benefit anyone connected to the actor.

The state of mind of the person at the time of the committal of the act is one that simply can not be discussed here. NO ONE knows regardless of their proximity to the actor.

Truthfully the only person who can fully elucidate the state of mind at the time is the actor themselves.

Everything else claiming knowledge is a fallacy.

Run_to_da_hills · 13-07-2011 12:25PM

Sykk wrote: »

Yes I have. It's the same as every other funeral, though..

In the past the Roman Catholic Church did not supposed funerals or burials for suicide casualties.

Rubik. · 13-07-2011 12:25PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

It is a selfish mean act that destroys more than just one life.

90% of those who die from suicide have an underlying mental illness, a very common sypthom of mental illness is sucidial thoughts. You are assuming that the decision to take their own lifes was a result of some rationally thought out process, but this is very rarely the case.

Elle Collins · 13-07-2011 12:28PM

Been to two of those funerals. One an immediate family member, the other my best friend. Anyone who thinks either of the people I lost were selfish can go and fcuk themselves.

Micky Dolenz · 13-07-2011 12:30PM

Agent Oso wrote: »

Yeah I think people should know how to be able to speak up the system here is atrocious if there was more help for people around they wouldn’t resort to it.

I think this part of the problem. Access to help. If you check my sig you'll see how many organisations are out there. It us very important to get that I formation out there.

If anyone is reading this and has suicidal thoughts I implore you to visit your GP. They will take you seriously and refer you to the best suited professional help.

If you have an injured leg you'd have no bother visiting a doctor. Treat your mental health with the same care.

mgmt · 13-07-2011 12:31PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

No. Was having a conversation with a member of a suicide prevention agency and we were discussing suicide across gender. I'll try and get some for you though.

Central Statistics Office releases suicide statistics for Quarter 2 in 2010

January 31st 2011

There were 127 deaths from suicide registered with the CSO in quarter 2 of 2010. 102 were male and 25 female. In the same period in 2009, 122 deaths were registered, 94 male and 28 female.

Registered deaths from suicide in 2009 reached a record figure of 527, a 24% increase on the previous year. The first two quarters of 2010 show a small increase in numbers. The NOSP will continue to monitor this worrying trend.

Death from suicide remains a major cause of concern and we must continue and improve all of our efforts to address this serious public health problem.
http://www.nosp.ie/

shocking numbers

13-07-2011 12:35PM

mgmt wrote: »

shocking numbers

Yeah, actual deaths are pretty shocking and definitely weighted toward men.
That's why I'm curious if there's anything behind the "attempts are equally distributed" thing

nice1franko · 13-07-2011 12:36PM

I remember reading that a person who attempted suicide by jumping from a bridge said afterwards something like: "It was only after jumping that I realised all my problems had relatively easy solutions - except the one immediately at hand"

Seachmall · 13-07-2011 12:37PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

we can conclusively state that the act does not benefit anyone connected to the actor.

I don't think someone who attempts suicide necessarily shares that perspective. I'm sure some do it because they see themselves as a burden and think their loved ones would be better off without them.

If it's not intentionally selfish I don't see it as selfish, that's my opinion anyway.

The Black Oil · 13-07-2011 12:39PM

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Interestedly, suicide attempts are pretty equal across the sexes. Males are mire successful at it due to the nature of how they do it. Men normally choose a more violent end, hanging, fire arm etc
While women tend to use less violent methods, drug over dose etc.

I've heard that before, though I can't remember where.

Some data on suicide and self-harm here.
http://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/12123/
http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=13201
http://www.suicideprevention.ie/pages/?id=52&tid=13
http://www.nosp.ie/annual_report_09_2.pdf
http://eurpub.oxfordjournals.org/content/14/1/19.abstract
http://www.ias.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20&Itemid=19
http://www.hrb.ie/uploads/tx_hrbpublications/HRBOverviewSeries7.pdf

Morlar · 13-07-2011 12:40PM

nice1franko wrote: »

I remember reading that a person who attempted suicide by jumping from a bridge said afterwards something like: "It was only after jumping that I realised all my problems had relatively easy solutions - except the one immediately at hand"

There was a documentary a few years back about the golden gate bridge suicides. One guy gave an account of how in the instant his hand left the rail he was able to overcome a mental block and suddenly realised that this was not actually what he wanted to do. He miraculously survived (spending months in hospital having been mangled on impact). He also said that while in the water he felt what he thought was a shark brush against his leg.

Latchy · 13-07-2011 12:42PM

I attended the funeral service for a lad only 5 weeks ago ,a neighbours son who was a university graduate and who after graduating had travelled abroad for a year or two before settling down to a good job with a top American financial firm in London . He was a quite charming lad ,very good looking , only 28 years old who would alway greet you with a Hello .

He had a history of depression and I remember a few years ago he took the break up with his then girlfriend quite badly . it also appears that he had got himself into debt so a combination of all above may have being the trigger , nobody can be fully sure and he had sent his mother a last text saying ' Elephant ' that went over her head at the time which apparently is the text slang for 'I Love You ' . It was only when you saw his university graduation photo sitting on top of coffin and his guitar at the side in the church that it really hit home ' why would a young man who had so much going for him want to take his life ?

As mentioned , he suffered with depression and instead of buying flowers ,his family asked that everybody give the money to a mental health charity called SANE

enda1 · 13-07-2011 12:44PM

Orando Broom wrote: »

I'm not sure anyone is advocating that on the board.

The definition of a selfish act is one that only has a sole benefit to the actor. I am aware this is an emotive issue but to deny the inherent selfishness of the act is to give the merest hint of credence to the notion that the acts benefits others aside for the actor. It simply does not.

Whether the actor believes that it will have benefits for others radiating away from the act is irrelevant because we do not know conclusively that this is their own belief and secondly we can conclusively state that the act does not benefit anyone connected to the actor.

The state of mind of the person at the time of the committal of the act is one that simply can not be discussed here. NO ONE knows regardless of their proximity to the actor.

Truthfully the only person who can fully elucidate the state of mind at the time is the actor themselves.

Everything else claiming knowledge is a fallacy.

Firstly what's wrong with being selfish? Why should your relatives feelings mean more to you than your own?

Secondly, at times there can be a great benefit to suicide for you and your friends and loved ones. Such cases are when you are in great pain and everyone around you would prefer for your sake (and maybe also so they can move on with their lives without the constant worry about your emotions etc. and/or financial hardship) that you die. Also cases of old people who are going through alzeimers or dementia can be a great pain and drain on their families where at times it would be easier for all concerned that they ceased to exist.

Ultimately its a complicated subject and one where there is no simple right answer. Each case needs to be treated differently. Sometimes the decision is selfish (and so what). Sometimes it is selfless. Usually its tragic and it is the tragic ones caused by temporary situations which need to be tackled and prevented.

mgmt · 13-07-2011 12:44PM

...........................Overdose :Alcohol : Poisoning : Hanging : .Drowning :Cutting :Other :Total
individuals treated ...5716 ........247 .......140 .......365 .........201 .......1641 ....288 ....8598

http://www.nosp.ie/annual_report_08.pdf

...

Storminateacup · 13-07-2011 12:49PM

A friend of ours was found dead on Saturday from an overdose. He's left three children and was buried today. he was supposed to be getting married tomorrow, but instead, it's a funeral party that's being celebrated.

It's heartbreaking to see his children and his fiancé trying to deal with it. Especially his little son, who's autistic.

While I believe it's an extremely selfish thing to do, it's heartbreaking to imagine how much turmoil that he obviously was in to do it

Morlar · 13-07-2011 12:54PM

enda1 wrote: »

Firstly what's wrong with being selfish? Why should your relatives feelings mean more to you than your own?

Secondly, at times there can be a great benefit to suicide for you and your friends and loved ones. Such cases are when you are in great pain and everyone around you would prefer for your sake (and maybe also so they can move on with their lives without the constant worry about your emotions etc. and/or financial hardship) that you die. Also cases of old people who are going through alzeimers or dementia can be a great pain and drain on their families where at times it would be easier for all concerned that they ceased to exist.

Ultimately its a complicated subject and one where there is no simple right answer. Each case needs to be treated differently. Sometimes the decision is selfish (and so what). Sometimes it is selfless. Usually its tragic and it is the tragic ones caused by temporary situations which need to be tackled and prevented.

I think unless you are terminally, incurably ill then it is a selfish act.

It may be unintentionally selfish, and borne out of severe pain but it's still essentially selfish.

I'd say it's often a symptom of an illness which alters your perception and judgement over time. Your ability to asses the proportionality of the trainwreck damage your loss is going to inflict on loved ones and friends. Also your ability to realistically judge the scope and scale of your problems, some of which may be temporary or treatable or inconsequential in the scheme of things.

Kess73 · 13-07-2011 12:55PM

Four times I have seen people go this way.

Two close friends and two relatives.

Two were in the military and suffered terribly from post traumatic stress. Both took their own lives after what must have been months and years of terrible struggles within their minds. One took his life through drowning, the other used a firearm.

A relative of mine took his life with his own shotgun. He had a being going through a break up with his wife and lost his job during that time. He asked if he could reduce the maintainance he paid for his daughter by 20 quid a week and was told he would not see the child if he tried that. Things went pear shaped from there and one night I got a phone call from his parents saying he had locked himself into his room (he had to move back in with them after losing the job as his wife stayed in their family home) with a gun. By the time I got there he had already fired the gun, and the sight I saw after breaking in the door will never leave me, nor will the cleaning of that room after his body was removed as I ended up being the family menber that did that to save his parents from having to go into the room.

The fourth person was in many ways the saddest as he hung himself and to this day we have no idea as to why he did it. No note, no obvious problems in his life. He had just gotten a new job, his partner had agreed to marry him and things seemed to be going well. Just goes to show that like a river, the surface view often is no indication of what is happening in the depths.

seamus · 13-07-2011 01:00PM

Morlar wrote: »

There was a documentary a few years back about the golden gate bridge suicides. One guy gave an account of how in the instant his hand left the rail he was able to overcome a mental block and suddenly realised that this was not actually what he wanted to do. He miraculously survived (spending months in hospital having been mangled on impact). He also said that while in the water he felt what he thought was a shark brush against his leg.

http://www.kevinhinesstory.com/

One website claimed that 28 people have survived their jump from the Golden Gate Bridge, and every single one of them reported having an "epiphany" as soon as they left the railing, where suddenly their perceived problems paled into insigificance and all they could think about was how they didn't want to die.

enda1 · 13-07-2011 01:01PM

Morlar wrote: »

I think unless you are terminally, incurably ill then it is a selfish act.

It may be unintentionally selfish, and borne out of severe pain but it's still essentially selfish.

I'd say it's often a symptom of an illness which alters your perception and judgement over time. Your ability to asses the proportionality of the trainwreck damage your loss is going to inflict on loved ones and friends. Also your ability to realistically judge the scope and scale of your problems, some of which may be temporary or treatable or inconsequential in the scheme of things.

Everyone's teminally incurably ill. especially so if you are above 80 when your waiting period becomes very short.

There is nothing inherently wrong with selfishness. Why must one be selfless? Why should one sustain their pain and dispair for the benefit of others and ultimately not themselves?

Millicent · 13-07-2011 01:03PM

Morlar wrote: »

I think unless you are terminally, incurably ill then it is a selfish act.

It may be unintentionally selfish, and borne out of severe pain but it's still essentially selfish.

I'd say it's often a symptom of an illness which alters your perception and judgement over time. Your ability to asses the proportionality of the trainwreck damage your loss is going to inflict on loved ones and friends. Also your ability to realistically judge the scope and scale of your problems, some of which may be temporary or treatable or inconsequential in the scheme of things.

If it's a symptom of an illness that alters your perception, then how is it selfish? I'm sorry but your post contradicts itself.

For the record, I've been severely suicidal in the past (got fantastic help from Pieta House, who are both very caring and free to all-comers) and at the lowest times, I thought it would be unselfish to commit suicide. When you're that far down, you genuinely feel like you would be doing others a favour not to have to put up with you anymore. You want to save people the inconvenience of your low moods and stop it affecting their life. Not rational but not selfish either.

allandanyways · 13-07-2011 01:04PM

I lost a friend when I was 15. His mam found him hanging from the washing line.

The funeral was horrible, all his favourite songs, was carried out to "Imagine". I was in bits, carried his hurley out of the church behind the coffin. Nobody ever found out why he did it. His mam blames herself and now has schizophrenia brought on by the trauma of all of this.

Another girl I know killed herself because she was pregnant and couldnt afford to go the UK for an abortion (she was 17). She left a note saying she would rather leave her parents with the shame of her having committed suicide than the shame of her being pregnant. That funeral was absolutely horrible, her mam nearly went into the grave with her.

Morlar · 13-07-2011 01:05PM

enda1 wrote: »

Everyone's teminally incurably ill. especially so if you are above 80 when your waiting period becomes very short.

That is just not the case, also the over 80's are not who we are talking about here.

enda1 wrote: »

There is nothing inherently wrong with selfishness. Why must one be selfless?

The options are not to be a) 'Selfish' or b) 'Selfless'.

enda1 wrote: »

Why should one sustain their pain and dispair for the benefit of others and ultimately not themselves?

The options are not a) 'sustain the pain' or b) 'kill yourself' either.

Forest Master · 13-07-2011 01:07PM

markc1184 wrote: »

Every other sentence seemed to be talking about the chaps selfishness and just general derogatory slurs against the chap. No matter what the priest stance is on suicide the way he was talking about the chap is definitely not what a grieving family wants to be hearing at the funeral. The family let him know that too.

But everyone knows the church's views on suicide - why were they surprised when the priest made these snide comments? They should have done a non-religious burial, IMO.

It's like a gay person getting buried by a homophobe - makes no sense, IMO. The person doing the ceremony didn't approve of your lifestyle and/or how you died. Kinda odd that people opt for religious burials for suicides, when the church is so vocally opposed to it. In their opinion, you're going to hell & you died a sinner. Why bring that on yourself? Go elsewhere!

According to the theology of the Catholic Church, death by suicide is considered a grave or serious sin.

flutterflye · 13-07-2011 01:09PM

Yes I have.

Just on the issue of the use of words like "selfish" etc...
I have suffered from depression more often than not in my lifetime.
I have felt extremely suicidal many, many times.
I have spent far too much time planning and dreaming of death.
Not death so much as just nothingness.

Anyway, I guarentee that I would be long gone by now if not for a family member once ranting at me how utterly selfish it is to commit suicide, that it's grand for you - you're dead, but your family and friends have to live forever with the pain you have caused.

That really struck a chord with me.
And I am so glad that it did.
I have since brought two lives into the world who would never have otherwise been.

Depression is an illness.
In many cases it's a lifelong battle, and will always be present under the surface.
But you learn how to prevent it, how to fight it, and how to feel and live again.

It really is never worth it.
And if you don't care about yourself enough to fight it, hopefully you care enough about those left to pick up the pieces after you're gone.

Morlar · 13-07-2011 01:10PM

Millicent wrote: »

If it's a symptom of an illness that alters your perception, then how is it selfish? I'm sorry but your post contradicts itself.

No it does not. I believe it is selfish in effect. The perception and awareness of that selfishness (among those clinically depressed) are what can be altered, in my view. Making it unintentionally, or rather unknowingly selfish.

Hannibal Smith · 13-07-2011 01:12PM

temply wrote: »

I've lost a family member to suicide.

Hence my reaction to your horrible remark.

I'm sorry to read about your family member, but it's a shame the point behind Orando Boom's post was lost because of a few words in it.

Whether the act is selfish or not, is one thing, but suicide is never the answer, whatever state you're in and if anyone feels that low they should always try and talk to some one, anyone...even if it doesn't feel like it at the time, there is always some one who is willing to help you.

Millicent · 13-07-2011 01:13PM

Morlar wrote: »

No it does not. I believe it is selfish in effect. The perception and awareness of that selfishness (among those clinically depressed) are what can be altered, in my view. Making it unintentionally, or rather unknowingly selfish.

Did you read the rest of my post? I'm sorry if that's the view you want to hold firm to but it's not the case for most suicide attempts. How can something that runs contrary to the survival instinct be inherently selfish? It's an oxymoron.

Latchy · 13-07-2011 01:14PM

Originally Posted by markc1184
Every other sentence seemed to be talking about the chaps selfishness and just general derogatory slurs against the chap. No matter what the priest stance is on suicide the way he was talking about the chap is definitely not what a grieving family wants to be hearing at the funeral. The family let him know that too.

Not the sort of priest you would want officiating at anybodys funeral never mind the sad demise of a suicide victim .Priest at my neighbours sons funeral handled it with grace and dignity in respect for the deceased , his family and friends .

has anyone here ever seen a funeral of a suicide casualty?

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