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The Circus

2

Comments

  • #32
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Is that Fingal Coco the clown you speak of??

    Fingal "fingers" Coco?


  • #33
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Princess Peach wrote: »
    That was the first one I read! But I didn't really trust it cause it is a fiction novel. So I read one called Ethics of the Ark, its by a few authors. Gives a very fair view from all sides!
    Agreed on both counts :) The Life of Pi does reference some genuine works on the topic but it's more than a little emotive given the nature of the book.


  • #34
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Forest Master wrote: »
    It's actually shocking how glib some people are about animals living in cages & being beaten. Unbelievable...
    How do you know they're being beaten? Being controlled with a whip does not equate to being tortured. And again, living in a cage - size dependent, isn't the life of hell that it's made out to be when you're getting fed, housed, looked after, getting regular medical attention and have full control over your own "territory". Believe it or not those enclosures are actually hugely comforting to a lot of animals.

    I saw it myself last week - a macaw escaped from its enclosure and we had knicker fits of fear that one of the sanctuary's prized breeding birds had vamoosed. But it had a quick flutter around and within hours had come back and was sitting on the enclosure door waiting to get let back in. There's a lot to be said for safety and comfort and free food every day :)


  • #35
    Forest Master
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Forest Master


    g'em wrote: »
    Forest Master wrote: »
    It's actually shocking how glib some people are about animals living in cages & being beaten. Unbelievable...
    How do you know they're being beaten? Being controlled with a whip does not equate to being tortured. And again, living in a cage - size dependent, isn't the life of hell that it's made out to be when you're getting fed, housed, looked after, getting regular medical attention and have full control over your own "territory". Believe it or not those enclosures are actually hugely comforting to a lot of animals.

    I saw it myself last week - a macaw escaped from its enclosure and we had knicker fits of fear that one of the sanctuary's prized breeding birds had vamoosed. But it had a quick flutter around and within hours had come back and was sitting on the enclosure door waiting to get let back in. There's a lot to be said for safety and comfort and free food every day :)

    Are you delusional, or is your surname Duffy?
    If I buy a cage & provide food & medical attention, will you live in it?
    Crap analogy about the macaw, BTW - it knows no different at this stage. Try putting that cage up to a macaw in the jungle & see if he hops in - that's the real test.
    By your logic, if the lion tamer can get the lion to shake his hand, that means they're good mates & the lion must be happy living there.


  • #36
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I like circuses with animals :) Best bit imo.


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  • #37
    staker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,677 ✭✭✭staker


    It's the smoking ban all over again.
    Time was I could easily fart in public and get away with it,take away all the animals from the ring and even the clowns'll stop smiling..:(


  • #38
    Forest Master
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,466 ✭✭✭Forest Master


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    I like circuses with animals :) Best bit imo.

    Trolling is a fine art and goes hand in hand with subtlety - this is where you fail.


  • #39
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Forest Master wrote: »
    Are you delusional, or is your surname Duffy?
    A little delusional after travelling solidly for the last 36 hours but otherwise in full mental capacity thanks. Just because I don't share your views you don't need to go down that route y'know :)
    Foster Master wrote:
    If I buy a cage & provide food & medical attention, will you live in it?
    We're non-equatable, that argument falls flat on its face. I'm not talking about keeping animals in horrific conditions, I'm talking about keeping animals in enclosures, with enrichments, being well cared for, taken care of, where they are free from predatory and disease stresses. these are elements of the "wild" that people don't really consider when they get up in arms about animals in captivity.
    Foster Master wrote:
    Crap analogy about the macaw, BTW - it knows no different at this stage. Try putting that cage up to a macaw in the jungle & see if he hops in - that's a real test.
    It's not a crap analogy at all. You made a comment about people being glib about animals being in cages, I'm merely pointing out that it's not as hellish as it's made out to be. Just because it knows no better how does that make its life any less fulfilling? It has all of the requirements it needs from the wild without having to worry about the pressures. It's not like a macaw is sitting there longing for a life on the outside. It's fed, it's watered, it shows how happy it is by breeding succesfully, where's the big problem?


  • #40
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    I can't see how they would be popular today, I can imagine there was a huge draw back in the day before tv and people had never seen these exotic beasts.


  • #41
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Forest Master wrote: »
    By your logic, if the lion tamer can get the lion to shake his hand, that means they're good mates & the lion must be happy living there.

    Nope, that's not my logic at all, I don't see those words in any of my posts :) But a lion will respond to a hierarchical society, and that's what a ringmaster provides them with. Like I said at the very beginning - I'm not very keen on circuses personally, I simply made the point that it's possible to argue that it's providing them with enrichment. Careful with all those words you're incorrectly putting in my mouth ;)


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  • #42
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Forest Master wrote: »
    Trolling is a fine art and goes hand in hand with subtlety - this is where you fail.
    I'm no troll, I like to see exotic animals preform tricks etc, just like humans have for thousands of years


  • #43
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 31,697 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Could you consider keeping a pet cat in a cage all day? And they are domesticated animals. I don't even like the idea of 'indoor cats' my cats love to get outside and hunt bugs in the garden.


  • #44
    Aoifey!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,571 ✭✭✭Aoifey!


    I love circuses but hate the way some animals are treated in them. I always loved the rest of the show, but the second they bring out those animals to do tricks I just want to leave. I was at one circus a few years back, can't remember which one, and the you could see the poor horses were starving and miserable :(


  • #45
    g'em
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    looksee wrote: »
    Could you consider keeping a pet cat in a cage all day? And they are domesticated animals. I don't even like the idea of 'indoor cats' my cats love to get outside and hunt bugs in the garden.

    In a teeny tiny cage? No, of course not, but have I not said that already or do I need to reiterate that a gazillion times on the thread? I'm equating cages with large enclosures though, which is probably a misrepresentation of the term where circuses are concerned because they wouldn't have that space.

    And I wouldn't have a pet cat. Dreadful creatures :pac: But if I had a dog I'd keep it in a large garden, that's the same as a large enclosure isn't it? And before anyone starts talking about how dogs need walking every day, yes, some do. But animals like lions spend ~20 hrs a day sleeping and actually move around very very little so, again, unequivocal.


  • #46
    Solnskaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Solnskaya


    Forest Master wrote: »
    Way to put the foot down. You're part of the problem.
    you're right, I should've shot the basturd.:rolleyes:
    I would've, but I had five kids with me, not all of them mine, and while my kids are used to having a mad da, the others would've been distressed. What exactly should I have done?:confused: Left?? The kids would've killed ME.


  • #47
    Kevin Duffy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Kevin Duffy


    Forest Master wrote: »
    Are you delusional, or is your surname Duffy?


    Ahem.


  • #48
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Before we all fry our brains trying to come up with witty replies, it's worth noting that the Arts Council help fund these circuses (edit: not all circuses use animals) and their inherent abuse of animals; that is, taxpayers' money is helping to keep these people around.

    Last year, Duffy's received a handout of €60,000.





    http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1218/arts.html


  • #49
    Sticky_Fingers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Sticky_Fingers


    Sigh, won't someone think of the poor lickle animals:(. Personally I have no problems with a circus using animals as long as they are well cared for. They are livestock, nothing more nothing less, this is what they were bred to do. Would many of you complain* about the treatment racehorses receive (how awful the little man is hitting the poor horsey with a whip) or being forced to drag carts around.

    A well run circus looks after their animals and ensures that they are well fed and contented, to do otherwise would lead to a sickly animal that is more difficult and dangerous to work with.

    *Noting that this is the internet and there are likely to be a few PETAesque animal rights window lickers on here


  • #50
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Sticky_Fingers wrote: »
    Sigh, won't someone think of the poor lickle animals:(. Personally I have no problems with a circus using animals as long as they are well cared for.
    define "well cared for"
    They are livestock, nothing more nothing less, this is what they were bred to do.

    No, they are sentient beings, they don't belong in a tent on the side of the road in Dublin. Animal circuses have been banned in several countries already. As usual when it comes to animal welfare, we are living in the dark ages.
    Would many of you complain* about the treatment racehorses receive (how awful the little man is hitting the poor horsey with a whip) or being forced to drag carts around.

    I do

    A well run circus looks after their animals and ensures that they are well fed and contented, to do otherwise would lead to a sickly animal that is more difficult and dangerous to work with.

    an animal living in a cage being transported around Ireland and beyond for the amusement of a few people cannot be content
    *Noting that this is the internet and there are likely to be a few PETAesque animal rights window lickers on here

    :rolleyes:


  • #51
    Sticky_Fingers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Sticky_Fingers


    Absurdum wrote: »
    define "well cared for"
    Well fed, well exercised with all health concerns taken care of.
    Absurdum wrote: »
    No, they are sentient beings, they don't belong in a tent on the side of the road in Dublin. Animal circuses have been banned in several countries already. As usual when it comes to animal welfare, we are living in the dark ages.
    They are no more sentient than pigs/cows/sheep bred for slaughter. They are no more sentient than the multitudes of draft animals used throughout the world. They are livestock, not pets nor noble beasts that should be allowed to roam free since most would not be capable of looking after themselves in the wild. If all circuses were shut down tomorrow most of the animals would simply be put down they would not be released to live the "Born Free" wet dream many animal rights activists envisage.

    Absurdum wrote: »
    I do
    Your username is very apt.
    Absurdum wrote: »
    an animal living in a cage being transported around Ireland and beyond for the amusement of a few people cannot be content
    I wasn't aware that you could communicate with animals, that's one of a hell of a skill you have. Tell me is it full blown Doctor Doolittle communication or are you a more of a horse whisperer type? Well it's either one or the other or else you are anthropomorphising the whole issue by erroneously assuming that an animals needs and wants are analogous to your own.


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  • #52
    ItsAWindUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ItsAWindUp


    Having animals in circuses is cruel, the stuff that the elephants have to go through in particular is horrific.


  • #53
    Nulty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,843 ✭✭✭Nulty


    Forest Master wrote: »
    Seems there's a protest on Saturday.

    http://www.naracampaigns.org/

    I'm there.

    I'd be careful about animal "rights" groups...some of them want animals to be able to vote and collect benefits.

    There's a difference between "Animal Rights" and "Animal Welfare"


  • #54
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Sticky_Fingers wrote: »
    Well fed, well exercised with all health concerns taken care of.

    And you seem to assume that all of this is ok with circus animals? How on earth do you excercise a rhinoceros or an elephant on the side of a road in central Dublin?

    This elephant in a UK circus was probably being "well cared for" too
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw7W1AJAL2c

    They are no more sentient than pigs/cows/sheep bred for slaughter. They are no more sentient than the multitudes of draft animals used throughout the world.

    I didn't say otherwise.
    They are livestock, not pets nor noble beasts that should be allowed to roam free since most would not be capable of looking after themselves in the wild.
    I wonder why....
    If all circuses were shut down tomorrow most of the animals would simply be put down they would not be released to live the "Born Free" wet dream many animal rights activists envisage.

    I would much rather they be put to sleep than be kept in captivity for the amusement of people like you.


    I wasn't aware that you could communicate with animals, that's one of a hell of a skill you have. Tell me is it full blown Doctor Doolittle communication or are you a more of a horse whisperer type? Well it's either one or the other or else you are anthropomorphising the whole issue by erroneously assuming that an animals needs and wants are analogous to your own.
    I didn't say I could, but I'll overlook your condescending tone and argue the point. I don't long to roam free on the plains of Africa so your last sentence is ridiculous. Why? Because I'm a northside Dubliner, it's not really something that I have an instinct for. Maybe if I were a lion or an elephant I might be into that kind of thing. Can you read between the lines there?


  • #55
    Sticky_Fingers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,379 ✭✭✭Sticky_Fingers


    Absurdum wrote: »
    And you seem to assume that all of this is ok with circus animals? How on earth do you excercise a rhinoceros or an elephant on the side of a road in central Dublin?
    I would assume that any place a circus could pitch their tent would have to been at least a few acres of ground purely for logistical purposes. To say that they would exercise their animals by walking them down the M50 like some piebald pony is misleading.

    This elephant in a UK circus was probably being "well cared for" too
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw7W1AJAL2c
    No I would not


    I didn't say otherwise.
    Following that logic you would likely support any efforts made to free all our enslaved animal brethren from the shackles of human tyranny.
    I would much rather they be put to sleep than be kept in captivity for the amusement of people like you.
    So you would rather see them all slaughtered so you could feel better about the whole situation, nice.
    I didn't say I could, but I'll overlook your condescending tone and argue the point. I don't long to roam free on the plains of Africa so your last sentence is ridiculous. Why? Because I'm a northside Dubliner, it's not really something that I have an instinct for. Maybe if I were a lion or an elephant I might be into that kind of thing. Can you read between the lines there?
    When people assign human motivations and emotions to animals I cannot help but be condescending, even more so when they reply to a post they didn't understand but couldn't be arsed rereading.

    Here is the comment I was responding to:
    an animal living in a cage being transported around Ireland and beyond for the amusement of a few people cannot be content
    I simply stated that concluding that an animals life in capivity must be an malcontented one is false since you provided no evidence to support that and are probably relying upon the fact that since it would not be a very fulfilling life for you it must follow that the same applies to animals.


  • #56
    Absurdum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Absurdum


    Sticky_Fingers wrote: »
    I would assume that any place a circus could pitch their tent would have to been at least a few acres of ground purely for logistical purposes. To say that they would exercise their animals by walking them down the M50 like some piebald pony is misleading.

    So you make a naive assumption like that, falsely claim that I said that animals are excercised on the M50, then go on to criticise me because you can't come up with a coherent argument in favour of circuses? :rolleyes:


    Following that logic you would likely support any efforts made to free all our enslaved animal brethren from the shackles of human tyranny.

    Assumptions, assumptions. Again.

    So you would rather see them all slaughtered so you could feel better about the whole situation, nice.

    I'd rather that they never had to endure the lives they have, yes.

    When people assign human motivations and emotions to animals I cannot help but be condescending, even more so when they reply to a post they didn't understand but couldn't be arsed rereading.

    I didn't.

    Here is the comment I was responding to:

    I simply stated that concluding that an animals life in capivity must be an malcontented one is false since you provided no evidence to support that and are probably relying upon the fact that since it would not be a very fulfilling life for you it must follow that the same applies to animals.

    Where's your evidence to support your claims? Oh that's right, you didn't bother.

    Here's a link to a CAPS report investigating Irish circuses.
    Some of the animals are imported from across Europe, facing gruelling journeys of up to 1,000 miles. In a few cases, the animals are transported back to their source country at the end of ten months of touring in Ireland, only to be brought back to Ireland a few months later.

    The touring season often lasts ten consecutive months, during which time the circus may travel the whole of Ireland (Republic and North), sometimes performing at two venues in the space of a week. In addition to being on the road for most of the year, the animals are not usually able to become accustomed to some of the sites that they visit.

    Evidence obtained by CAPS has revealed that many animals used in Irish circuses are suffering physical and behavioural welfare problems as a direct result of their captivity and use in the circus.

    A significant number of animals in circuses in Ireland live restricted lives, with temporary and inadequate accommodation, constant transportation and unnatural social groups.

    CAPS’ research has found that few attempts are made to provide suitable environmental enrichment for the animals.

    There is no legislation in Ireland specific to the use of animals in circuses and the law is inadequate to protect the animals used in circuses.``

    I presume you think it's ok to hump wallabies at birthday parties too since they're obviously so happy, right?

    But don't take my word for it - here's what two former circus performers had to say about a circus in Australia:
    The Mary Valley couple, who worked for Eden Bros for eight months up until April last year, alleged circus owner John MacDonnell was in breach of numerous regulations under the Queensland Code of Practice for the Welfare of Animals in Circuses.

    Their allegations include animals being permanently tethered with ropes which were too short and a caged monkey being forced to eat and sleep in its own excrement.

    They said Mr MacDonnell never erected fences around animals, as required by law.

    As a result they said they had seen members of the public feed animals beer and blow cigarette and marijuana smoke in their faces.

    The animals, which included a donkey and a pony, were also constantly teased by the public. The couple described the mental state of the animals as miserable and the conditions they were kept in as being akin to slavery.

    “It’s just third world – it’s just a very old fashioned way of thinking,” Mr Price said.

    “It got to the point where we could no longer work there. We couldn’t continue to feel bad for not bringing it (the alleged mistreatment of the animals) to someone’s attention.”

    Mr Price and Ms Scrimshaw have performed in circuses in 14 countries, but Eden Bros was the first circus they had worked at which used animals – and it will be the last.

    “We often invested a lot of pay straight back into the animals because our hearts were broken over how they were treated,” Mr Price said.
    http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2009/06/06/circus-performers-claim-animal-cruelty/


  • #57
    GrizzlyMan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 957 ✭✭✭GrizzlyMan


    Remember going to one as a kid and the elephants had sh1t all over the place, I was sitting there in the front row with my candyfloss, then the horses came running around the place kicking all the sh1t all over my face, I was ever so sad:(


  • #58
    dee.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭dee.


    I don't support zoos or the circus. Even as a child I didn't like the circus, the animals part was my least favorite.


  • #59
    Aidan1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6 ✭Aidan1234567


    Have any of ye' even been to Tom Duffy's!!
    You can't paint all Circuses with the one brush!
    I visit Tim Duffy's Circus very often all the animals from the small ponies to the big tigers are treated with great care and love.
    I hope you all realize that these animals were born into Circus and they cannot be released into the Wild, so they really are only exotic animals.
    Go and see it for yourself!
    There are 3 Circuses that tour Ireland with animals now and they all treat there animals with great care!!!!!
    Support the Circus!


  • #60
    Downlinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    I agree with the cause here, animal cruelty is wrong and this sort of practice should not be condoned.

    Although that said circuses IMO are something belonging to the distant past, I can't imagine kids being entertained with their parlour tricks in modern times. We have monster truck derbies, stunt bikes, jackasses and david blaines nowadays. Some dude on a tightrope isn't going to entertain anyone.


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  • #61
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    The real Circus is in the Dail.


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