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Should religion be taught in schools?

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    #392
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    Powerhouse wrote: »
    So you've been exposed as talking complete bollox but there's no need to sulk! :P
    Not a bit-glad to have gotten under the skin of someone labouring under one helluva delusion.
    DOES JESUS REALLY WANT YOU FOR A SUNBEAM?

    actually, may be some truth to it considering we are stardust and will return to them again
    You have a nice day sir.:D


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    #393
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    steve06 wrote: »
    Right and wrong has nothing to do with religion, it can be thought without a belief in a god.

    1. I do believe that non-believers can do what is good.
    2. I don't believe that faith has nothing to do with ethical action. As I've already noted in this thread, faith in God encourages good deeds. There have been surveys done both in the US and the UK which show this.

    Ultimately if there isn't an objective standard of good and evil anything can be argued to be good and evil as good and evil are simply in the perception of the perceiver. This is why I'm led to believe that God is the standard of right and wrong as He is objective to all things. I've studied moral philosophy extensively during my time at university and it seems clear to me that all other forms of ethical system are condemned to being subjective to what people think rather than objective to all irrespective of what people may or may not think.

    If a majority of people thought it was OK to discriminate minority X it doesn't mean that it is so.

    Likewise if a majority of people thought it was OK to murder and / or rape it doesn't me that it is so.

    If morality can't be based on majoritarian opinion, or on personal thought alone, what can it be based on?

    If I am wronged, instinctively I will rebuke the wrongdoer for what they have done to me. This is human nature, but why will I rebuke the wrongdoer, simply because humans instinctively believe that it should be clear to the other person as to what is wrong. Why is this clear though? That's the intriguing question.


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    #394
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    philologos wrote: »
    As I've already noted in this thread, faith in God encourages good deeds.

    So does a gold star on your copy book when you're 5 years old... Rewards encourage good deeds, it's how I raise my son and it's the way of the world when you actually start working. A faith in a god is not going to make you successful unless you're a leader in a cult.


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    #395
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Teaching someone the facts about something is not indoctrinating them. It's just not.
    What facts?


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    #396
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,362 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The only reason the religious orders want to keep religion as a part of the curriculum in primary schools, is because they know that if was left up to the parents to teach their kids about religion, half the children of ireland would grow up totally ignorant of catholic theology


    They also know that it is far far easier to get people to believe in christianity (or any other religion) when they are young impressionable and naive or otherwise vulnerable to suggestion


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    #397
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    steve06 wrote: »
    So does a gold star on your copy book when you're 5 years old... Rewards encourage good deeds, it's how I raise my son and it's the way of the world when you actually start working. A faith in a god is not going to make you successful unless you're a leader in a cult.

    Belief in God isn't about "being successful". It's about doing the right thing and striving towards what is good rather than what is evil. Although, I will say that I do strongly believe that God has a plan for each and every person.

    Life is about more than money, life is about more than success. Educating people as if this is what life is all about is a shoddy way of education in my opinion. Even from a secular perspective I could think about much more philosophy that would enrich a persons life perspective than such tripe.


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    #398
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    MOSSAD wrote: »
    What facts?
    "There are currently X million Christians in the world." "Christians believe X and Y." "Christianity has had a huge influence on renaissance artists X, Y and Z." And so on.

    Those are the type of facts that are, and should be, taught in schools for all religions. No indoctrination necessary.


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    #399
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Akrasia wrote: »
    The only reason the religious orders want to keep religion as a part of the curriculum in primary schools, is because they know that if was left up to the parents to teach their kids about religion, half the children of ireland would grow up totally ignorant of catholic theology

    That would be an improvement of about half the children of ireland, from the current situation :pac: It's better that 5% get an accruate exposure to the teachings of a particular faith on their own time than 100% get a ballsed up mongrel version in a school particularly at primary level.


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    #400
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    philologos wrote: »
    It's about doing the right thing and striving towards what is good rather than what is evil.

    We can teach good and bad with Christianity. We can teach good and bad with a different religion. We can teach good and bad with puppets if we want. But, if teach good and bad as basic human principles (which they are) the child's sense of morality is not reliant upon one of many flawed and controversial rationalizations that are the world's religions.


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    #401
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Seachmall wrote: »
    We can teach good and bad with Christianity. We can teach good and bad with a different religion. We can teach good and bad with puppets if we want. But, if teach good and bad as basic human skills (which they are) the child's sense of morality is not reliant upon one of many flawed and controversial rationalizations that are the world's religions.

    As long as the teaching of good and bad begins first and foremost in the home. Don't fancy handing any kids over to the state to have them taught what is good and what is bad tbh.


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    #402
    Fionne
    Registered Users Posts: 392 ✭✭Fionne


    Should it be taught in schools? IMO, like others have said, perhaps as a general subject where no one particular faith is "promoted" but not the way it is taught now.

    As for whether bible stories about miracles confuse children when it comes to science - what's the difference between that and children believing a fat old man can call to every house on the planet in one night in December? No logical science to explain that either (or the tooth fairy, or fairy godmothers in fairy stories, etc) I can't remember ever being confused by those kinds of things as a child.

    Another issue is small schools, I went to a 2 teacher primary school and so at Communion or Confirmation time, when the teacher spent all day every day teaching that particular class their preparation for the sacraments, the other 3 classes are for the most part ignored. This is still the case in many small schools that have more than one class per teacher. (Though in my case we were taught Irish for at least 85% of the day on a normal day anyway, we never did history or geography, let alone science!) :rolleyes:

    I'm not a parent and know that this might irk people who are but isn't it just too easy for the parents to send the children off to school and let the teachers do the educating when it comes to religion? If it wasn't taught in school then parents would have to make an effort to take them to church and teach them about religion themselves if they wanted them brought up in that faith, which surely would be the right way for it to be taught.


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    #403
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Ideally we want to see a decline in religion throughout the west. People should be thought how important their single one and only life is and also be thought how to deal with life issues without needing to rely on fairy tales for comfort.

    We'd all be better off for it.

    The USA is a perfect example of why this should be so. the country is held to ransom by extremist Christians and other unsavoury types. Too much power in the churches and you'll end up like some schools in the states with bloody warnings on biology books stressing the Evolution is only a theory.


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    #404
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    prinz wrote: »
    As long as the teaching of good and bad begins first and foremost in the home. Don't fancy handing any kids over to the state to have them taught what is good and what is bad tbh.

    Neither do I now that I think about it, but it is intriguing to ask about where morality comes from. Are the standards set by man or are moral standards independent of man?

    Is morality wholly subjective (dependent on the person, place, time or any other factor) or is it objective to all human beings.

    It's something I find that not too many people think about.


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    #405
    MOSSAD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 317 ✭✭MOSSAD


    Seachmall wrote: »
    "There are currently X million Christians in the world." "Christians believe X and Y." "Christianity has had a huge influence on renaissance artists X, Y and Z." And so on.

    Those are the type of facts that are, and should be, taught in schools for all religions. No indoctrination necessary.
    To what end? It's all superstition. Has anyone ever come back to say that God or heaven exists? We'r just animals that happen to be at the top of the evolutionary ladder. Something sometime will replace us.


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    #406
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    RichieC wrote: »
    The USA is a perfect example of why this should be so. the country is held to ransom by extremist Christians and other unsavoury types. Too much power in the churches and you'll end up like some schools in the states with bloody warnings on biology books stressing the Evolution is only a theory.

    The US has a strict separation of Church and State, with no Religion taught in schools........


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    #407
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,362 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Teaching someone the facts about something is not indoctrinating them. It's just not.

    Can i be the one who designs the curriculum please!!!

    I would teach the facts, especially the fact that the bible was written by people who never met jesus and weren't present at the times the events supposedly happened

    That there is no real evidence for any of the miracles that happened or no real way to verify any of the supernatural of the events in the bible.


    It all comes down to framing. if the 'facts' are presented in light of the evidence, they will not be believed. if they are presented as truths, then the children will automatically believe them (as this is what children do, they believe pretty much everything they are told by an authority figure)


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    #408
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    wes wrote: »
    The US has a strict separation of Church and State, with no Religion taught in schools........

    lol


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    #409
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,257 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Seachmall wrote: »
    "There are currently X million Christians in the world." "Christians believe X and Y." "Christianity has had a huge influence on renaissance artists X, Y and Z." And so on.

    Those are the type of facts that are, and should be, taught in schools for all religions. No indoctrination necessary.

    Technically, that bit is incorrect - the church only allowed artists to paint Jesus or St Sebastian in the nude form, and even then with modesty. As the chruch were the most frequent patros of the artists, the artists rolled over, or painted in secret (causing the creation of the Illuminati, as far as I know).

    If you adopt this apprach with Chrristianity - which, if you;re teachign religion, I think you should - then AL religions should be taught equally.

    Never know, might bring a littler toleance and a little less bullying into the playgorund.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #410
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    The US is legally a good deal more secular than this country in terms of Governance, yet the secularism allows faith to thrive in that the State doesn't interfere with the churches. There's a similar situation in Turkey. Turkey is a secular country in terms of Governance but the vast majority are Muslim.


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    #411
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    philologos wrote: »
    The US is legally a good deal more secular than this country in terms of Governance, yet the secularism allows faith to thrive in that the State doesn't interfere with the churches. There's a similar situation in Turkey. Turkey is a secular country in terms of Governance but the vast majority are Muslim.

    more so ignorance.


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    #412
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    RichieC wrote: »
    lol

    If you like to laugh at facts, go right ahead. The US for all its faults, does have a strict separation of church and state. Now, its by no means perfect, but as I said Religion is not taught (except World Religion and the like) in Public schools.


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    #413
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,257 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    wes wrote: »
    If you like to laugh at facts, go right ahead. The US for all its faults, does have a strict separation of church and state. Now, its by no means perfect, but as I said Religion is not taught in Public schools.

    Depends on what state, I believe. In some of them, they still teach Creationism as fact.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #414
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Depends on what state, I believe. In some of them, they still teach Creationism as fact.

    Yes, but they can't frame creationism as Religion, they have to present it as a science. The reason they have to do this, is due to Separation of Church and state. Basically, some people have found a way to sneak in creationism, by mis-representing it.


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    #415
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    MOSSAD wrote: »
    To what end? It's all superstition. Has anyone ever come back to say that God or heaven exists? We'r just animals that happen to be at the top of the evolutionary ladder. Something sometime will replace us.
    Akrasia wrote: »
    I would teach the facts, especially the fact that the bible was written by people who never met jesus and weren't present at the times the events supposedly happened

    That there is no real evidence for any of the miracles that happened or no real way to verify any of the supernatural of the events in the bible.


    It all comes down to framing. if the 'facts' are presented in light of the evidence, they will not be believed. if they are presented as truths, then the children will automatically believe them (as this is what children do, they believe pretty much everything they are told by an authority figure)

    There are facts about Christianity. Christianity exists. This is a fact. Christians are theists. This is a fact. Christians believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. This is a fact.

    These are the facts I'm talking about teaching. Not presenting Christian beliefs as fact but presenting historical, cultural, etc. facts about religion.
    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Technically, that bit is incorrect - the church only allowed artists to paint Jesus or St Sebastian in the nude form, and even then with modesty. As the chruch were the most frequent patros of the artists, the artists rolled over, or painted in secret (causing the creation of the Illuminati, as far as I know).
    Ya, "X, Y and Z" were supposed to be named artists but as I don't know any artists of the time that were "heavily influenced" by Christianity I just left it as "X, Y and Z". Twas just an example anyway.
    If you adopt this apprach with Chrristianity - which, if you;re teachign religion, I think you should - then AL religions should be taught equally.

    Never know, might bring a littler toleance and a little less bullying into the playgorund.
    Absolutely. Anyone ever seen those multi-denominational primary schools around? They teach religion from an objective secular view (they have to as they've kids from every religion and background). That's a good idea imo.


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    #416
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭RichieC


    wes wrote: »
    Yes, but they can't frame creationism as Religion, they have to present it as a science. The reason they have to do this, is due to Separation of Church and state. Basically, some people have found a way to sneak in creationism, by mis-representing it.

    Calling it creationism was one of their ploys.

    only 4 out of 10 americans believe in evolution.. less than a belief in UFO's.


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    #417
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Technically, that bit is incorrect - the church only allowed artists to paint Jesus or St Sebastian in the nude form, and even then with modesty. As the chruch were the most frequent patros of the artists, the artists rolled over....

    Or a second artist was hired later to 'cover up' the unmentionables with strategically placed material and foliage. However the church did have a major impact across not only art but a lot of aspects of the renaissance.


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    #418
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,362 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    philologos wrote: »
    Belief in God isn't about "being successful". It's about doing the right thing and striving towards what is good rather than what is evil.
    God either exists or doesn't exist regardless of whether you believe you should strive to do the right thing.

    A statement of a belief in god is a statement that you think that god exists.

    It makes no sense to say "I believe in God because I want to strive to do the right thing"

    It should be "I want to strive to do the right thing because I believe in God"

    If you already want to strive to do the right thing and just need God as some kind of an added reason to do what you were going to do anyway, then doesn't that just make God redundant?


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    #419
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    RichieC wrote: »
    Calling it creationism was one of their ploys.

    Well, you exactly right. That was the only way they could get around the separation of church and state, and sadly it worked.
    RichieC wrote: »
    only 4 out of 10 americans believe in evolution.. less than a belief in UFO's.

    Well, I am not sure that necessarily has much to do with Religion, as surely Aliens would go against fundamentalist Religion as much as evolution.

    Of course, I could be wrong, but that is certainly an odd figure.


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    #420
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Akrasia wrote: »
    God either exists or doesn't exist regardless of whether you believe you should strive to do the right thing.

    My point is that God's standards are what is good and evil at least ins as far as I see it. Therefore accepting God and His standards mean striving for the good.
    Akrasia wrote: »
    It makes no sense to say "I believe in God because I want to strive to do the right thing"

    I never said it was why I believed anyway. It was about what believing in God is ultimately about. Your post is going beyond what I actually said.
    Akrasia wrote: »
    It should be "I want to strive to do the right thing because I believe in God"

    Which is essentially the exact same thing as saying that belief in God is about striving to do the right and good.
    Akrasia wrote: »
    If you already want to strive to do the right thing and just need God as some kind of an added reason to do what you were going to do anyway, then doesn't that just make God redundant?

    This assumes that good is independent from God. I don't believe it is or that it is sensible to assume that it is.

    You might say that non-believers can do what is good. I believe this too, but why do they do what is good. Ultimately because of the conscience that is given to them by God. It is also possible that we can ignore our consciences and fall short of God's standards, namely to do what is evil.


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    #421
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,362 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    philologos wrote: »
    Neither do I now that I think about it, but it is intriguing to ask about where morality comes from. Are the standards set by man or are moral standards independent of man?

    Is morality wholly subjective (dependent on the person, place, time or any other factor) or is it objective to all human beings.

    It's something I find that not too many people think about.


    Philosophy would make an excellent addition to the primary school curriculum. Children love to be stimulated, and philosophy can be taught as a dialogue and a way to stimulate thinking while theology is taught as a dogma.

    It is just as important to know why something is right or wrong as it is to know what is right and what is wrong if we are to be providing a proper education. The 10 Commandments are a very very poor substitute for a dialogue on ethics


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