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Porridge is bad for you
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59028
El_Dangeroso wrote: »Ok, now I'm gonna break my own damn rule, but only cos you write such long dense posts.:pAnd they never will, been on this merrygoround a few times. Ice is a raw vegan, so you know, a diet that has never supported any human population in history. I don't think the anthropological angle is a match for a dietary religion.That's Wrangham's hypothesis, but it's built on sparse evidence. The rapid expansion in our brain's along with commensurate gut shrinkage occured 1.8m years ago, but the earliest hearths are from all from less than 250,000 years ago (there's one site in Keyna from 1.6m but that's still very speculative as regards any cooking occurring there). Not saying it's not possible, but the evidence leans more towards the move from plant to calorie dense animal foods, ie the expensive tissue hypothesis. You need a massive boost in DHA to support a big brain, you don't get that from starch.But even then we've done a lot of evolving in the past 250,000 years. We're more adapted to cooked foods than raw. And although I think raw food is a worth-while contribution to a diet, the bulk of calories should be cooked unless you like to chew all day long like our more herbivorous cousins.:)Maybe it's because I'm a woman but the image of man the hunter and woman the leaf and berry gatherer always irks me.:D Women actually gathered a large amount of protein in the form of shellfish, lizards, insects and grubsAccording to the latest research, megafaunal extinctions are actually more likely to have been climate related.Humans are efficient scavengers and opportunists, we were never top of the food chain, you can't be when things still eat you! It's a romantic notion that has persisted despite evidence to the contrary.Although yes, animal protein is of significantly higher bioavailiability, the allergy argument doesn't really prove anything, prevalance of allergies to a protein is no indication of it's suitability in the diet. I used to think so, but the pathology of allergies is more down to an auto-immune response occurring during the presence of an otherwise innocent protein, than anything intrinsically wrong with the food.It only seems to increase longevity if the mice are calorie restricted from birth, if you calorie restrict them half way through their life the benefits drop dramatically. Also, human studies have been short term, lots of things that cause markers to improve short term can turn pear shaped in a few years.
Initial improvement in health = what you take out of your diet
Long term maintennance of health = what you put in to your diet
Plus have you seen any long term CRONies? They look like hell:
http://www.calorierestriction.org/cr4_dvds
fasting in humans and found an overall positive response regardless of the age of the individal. Which would make sense given our history. Being hungry the odd time is likely good for you kinda thing.
I swear I'll not multi quote again :oRejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Do you have a link to anything about isotope ratios showing significant starch consumption from c.1.8m years ago? I always thought this kind of evidence was debatable unless it's something with a unique carbon signature like corn? I wish I had more time to read up on this stuff, but I settle for frequenting anthropology forums and having my ass handed to me in debates.
I don't doubt raw veganism in the short-term causes people to improve their health. But then again so does any variety of extreme diet, including zero carb, which is almost the exactly the opposite in terms of content.
I'd attribute this to the elimination of the most potentially problematic foods. So the success of a LFRV diet is no more attributable to the lack of animal foods as the zero carb is to the lack of plants.
Another factor is intermittent protein restriction causes favourable improvements on health, long term protein restriction comes with it's own set of issues in my own experience, notably a drastic drop in mood and loss of muscle.
Longer term, 5 years later maybe less, problems happen. Teeth fall out, weight starts to be regained, depression and other issues creep in. Either way the inevitable deficiencies of either approach become apparent. At this point the belief that this is The Best Way To Eat (TM) is so ingrained that the person has an almost Stockholm-syndrome like dedication to continuing the diet and that the reason it's not working is that it's not strict enough.
Overall the most depressing thing is that we have yet to discover the diet that allows for consistent and permanent weight loss. Until we're stuck with evangelists (like myself lol!) trying to convert people round to our way of thinking.0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59028
El_Dangeroso wrote: »Do you have a link to anything about isotope ratios showing significant starch consumption from c.1.8m years ago?I don't doubt raw veganism in the short-term causes people to improve their health. But then again so does any variety of extreme diet, including zero carb, which is almost the exactly the opposite in terms of content.
I'd attribute this to the elimination of the most potentially problematic foods. So the success of a LFRV diet is no more attributable to the lack of animal foods as the zero carb is to the lack of plants.
Another factor is intermittent protein restriction causes favourable improvements on health, long term protein restriction comes with it's own set of issues in my own experience, notably a drastic drop in mood and loss of muscle.
Longer term, 5 years later maybe less, problems happen. Teeth fall out, weight starts to be regained, depression and other issues creep in. Either way the inevitable deficiencies of either approach become apparent. At this point the belief that this is The Best Way To Eat (TM) is so ingrained that the person has an almost Stockholm-syndrome like dedication to continuing the diet and that the reason it's not working is that it's not strict enough.Overall the most depressing thing is that we have yet to discover the diet that allows for consistent and permanent weight loss. Until we're stuck with evangelists (like myself lol!) trying to convert people round to our way of thinking.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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@ Wibbs & El_Dangeroso:
Just a quick note of thanks to you both for an excellent debate, this is exactly the sort of thing that makes Boards.ie so great.
Carry on...0 -
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El_Dangeroso wrote: »Humans are efficient scavengers and opportunists, we were never top of the food chain, you can't be when things still eat you! It's a romantic notion that has persisted despite evidence to the contrary.
Studies have suggested early Europeans were the highest level predators around
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/38/16034.full0 -
I reckon we have, just it requires consistent and permanent application. I would also personally believe that any "perfect diet" can't be applied worldwide to all populations. I ain't talking about blood group diets (completely daft IMHO). I'm talking about deep and shallow genetic heritage that might come into it. What may be tip top as a dietary component for one population may play havoc with another. EG Soya for Asians OK, may not be so good for Europeans and Africans and others though. Gluten and lactose would be other obvious ones with local adaptations. Applying a one size fits all probably won't work worldwide.
Absolutely, there's some evidence coming out that this is modulated in part by our gut bacteria, really cool study recently coming out about how Japanese people have different bacteria that make them uniquely suited to their diet.
In my own experience I eat rice, but if rice is my main starch I start to get blood sugar issues. But if I replace it with an equal amount of potato my blood sugar is rock steady.
But to be honest I'd just love to see people going back to using traditional fats, there's no human on the planet adapted to the amount of veg oil we in the west eat. Those of African descent seem particularly vunerable, it seems to make them far more susceptible to diabetes.0 -
--Kaiser-- wrote: »Studies have suggested early Europeans were the highest level predators around
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/38/16034.full
We got our fair share of protein for sure, but we would have still been predated upon, I dunno if that precludes you from being an apex predator or not.0 -
El_Dangeroso wrote: »We got our fair share of protein for sure, but we would have still been predated upon, I dunno if that precludes you from being an apex predator or not.
As Wibbs states above, wolves are not unknown to eat other wolves. Not only did we kill and eat more animals than wolves, we domesticated them!0 -
--Kaiser-- wrote: »As Wibbs states above, wolves are not unknown to eat other wolves. Not only did we kill and eat more animals than wolves, we domesticated them!
Or they domesticated us.:)0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59028
El_Dangeroso wrote: »Absolutely, there's some evidence coming out that this is modulated in part by our gut bacteria, really cool study recently coming out about how Japanese people have different bacteria that make them uniquely suited to their diet.In my own experience I eat rice, but if rice is my main starch I start to get blood sugar issues. But if I replace it with an equal amount of potato my blood sugar is rock steadyBut to be honest I'd just love to see people going back to using traditional fats, there's no human on the planet adapted to the amount of veg oil we in the west eat. Those of African descent seem particularly vunerable, it seems to make them far more susceptible to diabetes.
Aside People are avoiding the sun more and more, yet are happy to chug down vit C(with added sorbitol) for its apparently good effects in the body, yet ignore Vit D which IIRC is involved in more gene expression than any other micro nutrient /Aside.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Aside People are avoiding the sun more and more, yet are happy to chug down vit C(with added sorbitol) for its apparently good effects in the body, yet ignore Vit D which IIRC is involved in more gene expression than any other micro nutrient /Aside.
Interesting thing on vitamin d, African people seem to not be as affected by D deficiency as caucasians, at least where stroke and heart disease and stroke are concerned.
Africans who move north do have much higher rates of autism though.
I think C is important, but probably not for the reasons we think, it does bugger all against viruses, but it's really important for skin and teeth.
Vitamin D is the nutrient du jour alright, I wouldn't go supplementing without adequate A, K2 and magnesium though. That's the problem with most trials in this area, they don't acknowledge that nutrients work in concert.0 -
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OP, I tried raw for a couple or years and did not work for me. It's an awful lot of hassle to gather and eat the amount of fruit that you need to keep you going calorie-wise and then you're hungry again very quickly as a result of the sugar highs and lows. Like for a raw-foodist you have to sit down in the morning and eat from half a kilo to a kilo of fruit in one sitting! That's a lot of chewing and a lot of time and also i was going to the shop every second day cos I was going through fruit and veg so quickly and it is highly perisable. There is also all the drawbacks that the others have mention and personally I do not think raw-food is healthy long-term. An one more thing, that girl in the video looks fairly anorexic in quite a few of the images.0
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭Join Date:Posts: 59028
El_Dangeroso wrote: »Interesting thing on vitamin d, African people seem to not be as affected by D deficiency as caucasians, at least where stroke and heart disease and stroke are concerned.+1OP, I tried raw for a couple or years and did not work for me. It's an awful lot of hassle to gather and eat the amount of fruit that you need to keep you going calorie-wise and then you're hungry again very quickly as a result of the sugar highs and lows. Like for a raw-foodist you have to sit down in the morning and eat from half a kilo to a kilo of fruit in one sitting! That's a lot of chewing and a lot of time and also i was going to the shop every second day cos I was going through fruit and veg so quickly and it is highly perisable. There is also all the drawbacks that the others have mention and personally I do not think raw-food is healthy long-term.
That said one of our differences is that we have the brains to collect a huge range of plant foods today and in the past. High value plant foods with it and as well we can extract the most bang for our buck out of them(EG cooking tubers and roasting nuts). Plus most of all we have incredible levels of dietary adaptability built in. We're like bipedal primate rats. You could have twins where one is a dyed in the wool vegan and the other is more a meat, fish and eggs person and so long as both were varied and high in quality, both would be healthy.
However I do think raw food diets as a palative and a treatment for some of the illnesses of the chronically well in the west are likely fruitful(no pun). Temporary raw food diets do seem to make good changes in the overweight, and cardiovascularly* compromised. As short bursts of pure protein with very low carbs may reset the sugar/insulin mechanism to healthy baseline. Ditto for short supervised fasts(the odd day I mean).
Prolly isn't but should be a word.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Wibbs, you'd love this book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1597260916/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=trevresa-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399349&creativeASIN=1597260916
It's hints at how humans and plants co-evolved and how different ethnicities developed different tolerances to plant toxins.
Corn is a cool example of this, it experienced a genetic mutation that would be catastrophic but for the fact that it made it far more attractive to cultivate by humans, Omnivore's Dilemma goes into this at length.0 -
El_Dangeroso wrote: »Interesting thing on vitamin d, African people seem to not be as affected by D deficiency as caucasians, at least where stroke and heart disease and stroke are concerned.
Africans who move north do have much higher rates of autism though.
Very interesting. I often wondered why peopel of South Asian ethnicity in Britain are regularly linked with rickets but blacks(who you would initially suspect would have it worse as they have much darker skin) not as much. Thought it was down to conservative Muslim/Hindu style clothing0 -
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The human body is amazing. It has a way of getting what it needs even from restrictive diets.
I remember reading this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1465244/Boy-thrives-on-jam-sandwich-diet.html
Never eat anything but jam sandwiches and crap and had correct protein and nutrition. Not suggesting it is the way to go
Still its interesting and proves that you could thrive on a fruit and veg diet.0 -
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His blood test results however are a different story.
The results indicate that Craig may be bordering on suffering from an iron deficiency which, if left unchecked, could lead to anaemia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/series7/jam_sandwich_diet.shtml0 -
jarecki1976 wrote: »His blood test results however are a different story.
The results indicate that Craig may be bordering on suffering from an iron deficiency which, if left unchecked, could lead to anaemia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/series7/jam_sandwich_diet.shtml
Thanks for that. I never got that side of the story. I thought as much and was surprised when I heard that story first a couple of years ago.0
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