It's a tough life for a man...

donfers · 25-06-2011 9:35pm

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Where did i say everyone should agree? It's a simple fact that the thread is about the weird view some people can have of males, it's being discussed in a forum designed to broach males issues....as such...the thread is male centric.

When people do the "yeah....but" thing in threads about a gender it always reduces the thread to a literal he said/she said scenario and just kills it dead.

With regards to the actual topic, i've been walking past a group of teenage girls at night time who think it hilarious to scream "rape!" and then have a laugh as if it's some kind of hilarious joke.

A good friend of mine had his life completely destroyed by someone who decided to put around rumours that he was taking sexual advantage of his students. Despite the fact that any investigation led back to the fact that the person was lying, and all his students came out and defended him as being a great teacher it was too late...he'll never work with students again and has been on the receiving end of acts of violence from people in the community he lived in...so much so that he had to move.

I'm aware that rape, child abuse etc is a very serious problem but this insane willingness from some quarters to instantly assume that the stranger on the street is a rapist or a pedo is ****ing nuts.

unfortunately we are living in an era, of what some writers have dubbed "liberal fascism", for the most part the results of this kind of thinking have been positive in terms of striving to do away with social injustices and campaigning for equality - but some unscrupulous folks can take advantage of the fact that they come from what is perceived to be the "oppressed" group and play their victim cards too readily, they know the kneejerk response will be pitchforks at the ready and the mob baying for blood as the liberal fascists jump to the defense of the "victim" more so because of who they are rather than the taking the time to judge the individual case on its own merits.

We are told the male (particularly white) has traditionally had the most privileged place in Society and has been the benefactor of patriarchy, what the "equality" campaigners often fail to mention (apart from the fact that small superclass controls everything and oppresses all of us, but yes most of that tiny group happen to be white men) is that in terms of perception, having to accept responsibility for your mistakes and moreover being perceived as the troublemaker/bad guy/threat/danger/malevolent influence without even having taken any kind of action, well in that fcuked-up world we certainly are king.

Everyone is now so fearful of being smeared by association with even the slightest implication of racism, sexism, paedophilia that often in those most sensitive cases the liberal fascists ensure you are guilty until proven innocent. The controlling forces now react NOT so much to who is guilty or innocent, not to how much or how little evidence there is for a particular case but more to the wailing shrieking hysteria of the liberal fascist bandwagon that relentlessly crushes all real debate knowing full well anybody that questions its right to do must be a racist, sexist or paedophile (or at least that's what they'll say if you dare confront them) rather than a person who is simply seeking those crazy far-fetched old-fashioned concepts like truth and justice.

pragmatic1 · 25-06-2011 9:50pm

sollar wrote: »

For who? I had two male teachers at primary school and both of them were excellent. The best teacher i had was male.

I had excellent male teachers in primary and secondary school too. Like you the best teacher I ever had was male. He was actually a major factor in me choosing the career I'm in now. But on average women tent to be better at communication and have more patience.

pragmatic1 · 25-06-2011 9:52pm

Dr Galen wrote: »

what would lead you to think that women make better teachers?

On average, better communicators, more patience, more aware of childrens emotional needs, and more conscientious.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 25-06-2011 10:08pm

pragmatic1 wrote: »

On average, better communicators, more patience, more aware of childrens emotional needs, and more conscientious.

That's why schools hold interviews with teachers they intend to hire. They establish if the person is conscientious etc

Anyway the most important aspect of being a teacher is ability to control a class. On average men would be better at that but it would be stupid to say men make better teachers over that.

Better communicators in general? yes but that includes being better at idle chatter. are they better at communicating with children they are teaching? doubtful imho.

More patient? not convinced about that at all

More aware of children's emotional needs? nonsense. a female teacher has no clue what its like to be a boy or a male teenager. Vice versa for men and girls.

I can't think of any occupations where I'd see relevance to saying Men/Women make better ....

Maybe in a communist state but when there's competition for employment it is silly to not look at a person on their individual characteristics

pragmatic1 · 25-06-2011 10:33pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

That's why schools hold interviews with teachers they intend to hire. They establish if the person is conscientious etc

Anyway the most important aspect of being a teacher is ability to control a class. On average men would be better at that but it would be stupid to say men make better teachers over that.

Better communicators in general? yes but that includes being better at idle chatter. are they better at communicating with children they are teaching? doubtful imho.

More patient? not convinced about that at all

More aware of children's emotional needs? nonsense. a female teacher has no clue what its like to be a boy or a male teenager. Vice versa for men and girls.

I can't think of any occupations where I'd see relevance to saying Men/Women make better ....

Maybe in a communist state but when there's competition for employment it is silly to not look at a person on their individual characteristics

Women tend to be better at communication. Thats a fairly well established female trait. They also score higher on average for EQ and empathy. Empathy allows someone to place themselves in anothers shoes, so yeah I'd say they would be more intune with the emotional needs of their pupils. From my own personal experience I've found women to have more patience than men.

"Maybe in a communist state but when there's competition for employment it is silly to not look at a person on their individual characteristics". Note the phrase "on average". It makes a big difference. I never said all women have these characteristics or all men lack these characteristics.

johnr1 · 25-06-2011 10:33pm

Iagree with most posts.

In my own experience, being a former dance teacher, I almost never taught children for this very reason. I was often asked to, and it would have been more lucrative, if more demanding, but as a guy, I didn't want to leave myself open to possible false accusations from children who didn't want to be there.
I still have friends in the dance world, and the a lot of the guys who teach are gay, not that that should make any difference to the risk of paedophillia, but they seem to be more accepted by parents possibly because the vast majority of students are girls.
It just contributes to the recent view of Irish and Set dancing as not being suitable activities for straight males.
This is just one pastime, not too serious in the big scheme of things but if as we are seeing, that this attitude spreads to include the whole teaching of preteens then as a society it leaves us poorer.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 25-06-2011 10:51pm

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Women tend to be better at communication. Thats a fairly well established female trait. They also score higher on average for EQ and empathy. Empathy allows someone to place themselves in anothers shoes, so yeah I'd say they would be more intune with the emotional needs of their pupils. From my own personal experience I've found women to have more patience than men.

I acknowledged that in general but I'd have to see evidence to be convinced they are better at communication with children in an educational context

"Maybe in a communist state but when there's competition for employment it is silly to not look at a person on their individual characteristics". Note the phrase "on average". It makes a big difference. I never said all women have these characteristics or all men lack these characteristics.

You didn't say on average until questioned on it. You said "I agree. Its seen as a more female oriented career and I personally think women make better teachers, but theres no balance in that profession now."

If its just on average what is the point even mentioning it?

tayto lover · 25-06-2011 10:58pm

pragmatic1 wrote: »

On average, better communicators, more patience, more aware of childrens emotional needs, and more conscientious.

You forgot - more time missed through sickness and pregnancy.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 25-06-2011 11:01pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You forgot - more time missed through sickness and pregnancy.

Interesting point. Whilst women have every right to time off for a pregnancy - it no doubt disrupt's their pupils learning.

tayto lover · 25-06-2011 11:05pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Interesting point. Whilst women have every right to time off for a pregnancy - it no doubt disrupt's their pupils learning.

I knew a female teacher once who had 4 children in quick succession. She only taught for about 3 months in 4 years. A lot of disruption to her class as they had different teachers on a regular basis.
It was that teachers right though but very disruptive to her classes.

pragmatic1 · 25-06-2011 11:18pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You didn't say on average until questioned on it. You said "I agree. Its seen as a more female oriented career and I personally think women make better teachers, but theres no balance in that profession now."

If its just on average what is the point even mentioning it?

Yes but I made a subsequent post which contained the phrase "on average". That was the post that you responded to. So I dont quite get your issue.

Dr Galen · 26-06-2011 12:29am

So of I reply that I think men would make better teachers and can back that up with a few thoughts of my own, that would be on too then?

I am a friend · 26-06-2011 7:59am

hollypink wrote: »

Interesting (and depressing) - is it that people now tend to view any man who wants to work/interact with children as suspicious/unnatural as though this isn't considered a male trait and therefore any male exhibiting it must have an ulterior motive i.e. paedophilia?

Parents hold these views and yet the bulk of parents are happy to let their kids sit on facebook/ the internet for hours (not knowing what they are looking at) and have letting them have mobile phones far too young....

The media plays its part for scaremongering but in truth the blame for the over-reaction firmly lies at the parents door. Friends of mine are secondary school teachers, in a 'nice school' and you literally cant say boo to little Johnny any more or the parents are in shouting the odds. When I was a kid, if a note was sent home from school to say you were bold, we would be killed and my parents would not be landing on the school door or even worse calling to the teacher at their home :eek:

IMHO, parents assume because they can see the kids i.e. on the PC in the sitting room , that they are safe but in truth, they are a lot safer at school or at guides / scouts that they are on the www.

Galvasean · 26-06-2011 7:11pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Interesting point. Whilst women have every right to time off for a pregnancy - it no doubt disrupt's their pupils learning.

Deffo. I've lost count of how many teachers of mine took time off due to pregnancy. It definitely disrupts. Even when the school quickly replaces them with a good substitute (which is not always the case) there is disruption in terms of class continuity as every teacher has their own ways of going about things which can take time for the pupils to adjust to.
Then of course there's the class muppets who keep insisting, "No, we never did that chapter before" just to act the maggit.

Soul Stretcher · 26-06-2011 9:25pm

IMO it all comes down to conditioning....

1. Our society has traditionally conditioned men to be separated from their family for most of the working day and to have their emotions under wraps so that they become the perfect cog in the industrial machine.. in factories and down mines etc. Feelings don't do anything in relation to packing more boxes or hauling more coal. Also, in times of war, they can be plucked off the production line and placed in the trenches... all you need to send them over the top into oncoming fire is an The Apprentice-type bull**** sales story of Your Country Needs You.. you don't have to worry about tearing them away from their families... that's already been done.

2. Cynicism in relation to Politics and Religion have removed a lot of bonds that hold men together. Especially the fall in Christian faith - just look at the Muslim practice and see hundreds of men literally kneeling shoulder-to-shoulder to pray. Now it's every man for himself.. the competitive lone-wolf. The expectation is that every man should be self-sufficient and ambitious - if not, then he is a failure/inadequate somehow. Even if he is successful and "wins" in business or sport etc.. after the initial burst of happiness with wealth/fame, they often become isolated and insecure.. because now they've definitely broken ranks with Joe Soap and can easily become targets of begrudgery and suspicion as the Boss Man. The GAA in Ireland, thank God/Allah whoever, is bucking the trend as social institutions go and keeping many communities together.

3. Any male who does manage to be successful is quickly tempted away from his roots and community by the status symbols of big house etc.. so he often doesn't remain where he grew up to act as a Mentor to kids etc.. he's too busy making money in his grown-up world.

Women and Men themselves are struggling to first of all realize how conditioned we all are in our ideas of ourselves as Men/Women, Irish/Non-Irish, Worker/Unemployed. We have no idea of what it means to be human - just human - without all the conditioned baggage we've absorbed since childhood. Secondly, even if you are aware "hey I don't need to play this game anymore.. I want to live life day and day as a human being with strong relationships with those around me"...how exactly do you start out on that path ? Where are the Role Models in Ireland today who successfully become Whole people as in financially sustainable, in close relationships with family and community etc.. Maybe we just don't hear about those guys.. but by God we need to..

That's the only way we can weaken the sense of distrust and suspicion of towards the lone male. The former hero as soldier or miner still covered in the dirt and muck of a repressed emotional life.

iptba · 27-06-2011 4:22am

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

With regards to the actual topic, i've been walking past a group of teenage girls at night time who think it hilarious to scream "rape!" and then have a laugh as if it's some kind of hilarious joke.

A good friend of mine had his life completely destroyed by someone who decided to put around rumours that he was taking sexual advantage of his students. Despite the fact that any investigation led back to the fact that the person was lying, and all his students came out and defended him as being a great teacher it was too late...he'll never work with students again and has been on the receiving end of acts of violence from people in the community he lived in...so much so that he had to move.

I'm aware that rape, child abuse etc is a very serious problem but this insane willingness from some quarters to instantly assume that the stranger on the street is a rapist or a pedo is ****ing nuts.

This (mainly the second paragraph) reminds me of the case (I think it was in the UK) where some sort of lynch mob attacked a man because they found out he was a ... paediatrician (and somehow thought that meant paedophile/similar).

People in lynch mobs - and there can also be "lynch mobs" be more in the arena of words, as has been mentioned in this thread - can cause a form of harm to individuals and indeed to an extent to the wider society. But unless one is actually physically violent, they [those in the lynch mobs] usually suffer no consequences (not exactly sure what the consequences should be, just making the point). Maybe part of it is to do with idle gossip - sometimes people can be too willing to indulge in it and also some people can be too willing to believe things without evidence.

A related point to all this is how so many people are so scared to let their children to play outside, when if one was to look coldly at the statistics, the long-term effects of many children subsequently going on to being overweight and perhaps ending up with a life of obesity (which isn't good for your health and not so good for your self-image/dating prospects either, particularly when young) are probably on average worse than the very odd chance that something might happen to a child. As I understand it, things like abductions are quite rare (even within the contest of child abuse).

um7y1h83ge06nx · 27-06-2011 11:16am

Good thread.

I'm reading this as a 28 year old male with no kids and see guys here talking about being scout leaders and working with kids in the GAA. My first thought? Why would you put yourself in a risky situation (i.e. working closely with kids where allegations could be made). Now that's sad that that's what I thought.

I wonder too how much of this paranoia is screwing up preparing a man to be a good father. I mean I have almost zero interaction with kids and tend to avoid interacting with kids for the very reasons this thread was started. I have no nephews or nieces and most of my cousins are teenagers or adults. Kids are almost a foreign object to me. There are some nice, decent kids in my estate but whenever they may engage me in conversation I try to keep it short in case people get "the wrong idea".

Women my age would tend to have had a lot more interaction with kids, with most having had the role of being a babysitter at some stage or another. Such is life I guess.

Delirium · 27-06-2011 11:26am

I remember listening to a guy on RTE radio a few years back. He was constantly second guessing himself with regards to his infant daughter due to a perception that men shouldn't be left alone with a child.

He was crying while talking about being worried that he was doing something wrong to his daughter, he was talking about changing her diaper.

He had an overwhelming fear of hurting his daughter, all because of people saying that a man involved with children is creepy/unnatural.

It's a terrible state of affairs that his confidence to be a good father was non-existent, all because of the evil deeds of some of his gender.

folan · 27-06-2011 12:02pm

Orion Creamy Gin wrote: »

I'm reading this as a 28 year old male with no kids and see guys here talking about being scout leaders and working with kids in the GAA. My first thought? Why would you put yourself in a risky situation (i.e. working closely with kids where allegations could be made). Now that's sad that that's what I thought.

similar to myself, which is bad.

it seems were almost conditioned to think like this!

However, society has changed. details of those who hurt and were hurt were hidden from the public eye for too long and now its hard to know who to trust. those who were most trusted in irish society for decades have been shown not to be as trustworthy as originally thought, and that seems to have spilt over into a mentality where noone can be trusted with those we love.

there is no answer to this, imo, and even though its not something that we SHOULD have to grin and bear, it IS something that we will have to.

mikemac · 27-06-2011 12:10pm

Our local national school is around about 30 years old and has about 140 students.

The principal and one of the Board of Management didn't get on at all, it happens, personality clash perhaps.
Now this man on the committee was a bit of a mother hen type. You know involved with the school, the tidy towns, the local church, different sports, even the local secondary school.

His daughter sent around a story that the principal was standing in the doorway of the changing rooms while the girls were getting changed.

Now the principal wasn't the most popular man to begin with but a lot of comments and anger was whipped up. He wasn't suspended but there was an investigation

And in the end it turned out the child in an "eager to please" mood said what she thought her father wanted to hear.

It was a pack of lies and man nearly lost his career over it. And mud sticks
Can happen with feuds

Dr. No · 27-06-2011 3:58pm

Dr Galen wrote: »

You wann try being a nurse lads. Mostly never had a problem but the odd time some eejit thinks it's a bit strange. While I was training I had thought that I might go and specialise in children's nursing too. I was told that it was possible that I might habve to have a chaperone from time to time when dealing with girls. Funnily my mate who is a doctor specialising in children's medicine never had an issue.

I work as a nurse too (Both General and children's) and I must say I have never encountered any problems either. Its encouraging to see more men entering the nursing profession.

the_syco · 27-06-2011 4:10pm

When I taught swimming, if we were ever doing a sweep to ensure that kids dropped off by their parents weren't just messing, we'd have to go in pairs.

Mrmoe wrote: »

Even something as walking on a footpath behind a woman alone, I would often feel compelled to cross the street so as to seem less "rapey".

Aye. I'd either "tie the shoelace" and increase the distance between us, or power-walk past her. FWIW, I'm 6 foot 6, dressed in black. Possibly scary on a poorly lit road at 4am in the morning...

pragmatic1 wrote: »

I agree. Its seen as a more female oriented career and I personally think women make better teachers

Are you a man or a woman? I ask as "old school" male teachers tend to teach males better (in subjects such as Irish, woodwork, engineering, history, etc).

Orion Creamy Gin wrote: »

I'm reading this as a 28 year old male with no kids and see guys here talking about being scout leaders and working with kids in the GAA. My first thought? Why would you put yourself in a risky situation (i.e. working closely with kids where allegations could be made). Now that's sad that that's what I thought.

I swam, I was taught how to swim, I became a qualified lifeguard, and was asked to teach swimming, and thus did it for a while. Stopped when my job started to involve Saturdays (when I'd teach swimming), and thought it'd be unfair if I only turned up the odd night (one of my past teachers did this, and it really fcuked up how we were taught.

=-=

When I left scouts nearly 10 years ago, I was planning on going back to be a leader, to "carry on the torch", once I got a steady job. Now that I have one, I'm unsure about going back to being a leader for the reasons discussed in this thread, though.

Count Duckula · 27-06-2011 4:40pm

In fairness, if the extent of the tough life that being a man entails is merely that you get a few odd looks if you're walking around alone then I think we can safely say that - when compared to the other gender - it ain't that tough.

iptba · 27-06-2011 4:51pm

Count Duckula wrote: »

In fairness, if the extent of the tough life that being a man entails is merely that you get a few odd looks if you're walking around alone then I think we can safely say that - when compared to the other gender - it ain't that tough.

Who said that was the extent? Have you read the thread? Other examples were given. I'm not sure this thread was designed to be any sort of competition - although I suppose seeing the perspective from women and what they deal with can have its place. But everything needs to be accounted for before making any comparison - your post didn't account for everything.

Feeona · 27-06-2011 4:54pm

My boyfriend was accused by parents of messing with their daughter. She was smart enough to imply that she was in rooms on her own with him without actually coming out and saying it. Excuse my language, but she was a complete and utter b*tch. Her parents leapt on it straight away and asked to speak to the principal. Meetings were held and it turns out that my boyfriend had followed procedure by ensuring he always had the classroom door open when speaking to any student outside of class.
There is a huge worry for men working with children that the child will always be believed over the adult. Not so. My boyfriend still has his job as a teacher, at his last parent teacher-meetings, parents were singing his praises

.

I just wanted to throw in a positive story of not only a man working with children, but a man who was accused and came out the other side. Common sense does prevail, and it would be a pity if men were put off working with children because they keep hearing negative stories. These negative stories are very similar to the paedophile lurking in every corner stories that are thrown about. It must be remembered that people who are quick to make false allegations are not all there 99% of the time, and will cause hassle for anyone and everyone, not just for men working with children.

ImpossibleDuck · 27-06-2011 5:00pm

Not so long ago, my granda was driving about 3-4 mins away from his house and it was LASHING the rain and he stopped and asked a youngfella (about 10-12) if he wanted a lift --my granda knew his family-- and the youngfella said no. My granda returns to the house about an hour later to find the gardaí waiting for him. The wee youngfella rang the guards with the number plate. These people are neighbours. Me poor granda didn't know what the hell was going on; he was just being nice.

This is becoming a massive problem in Ireland; neighbours not knowing or trusting each other. Everyone's so damn suspicious nowadays. Makes me sick.

Jam · 27-06-2011 5:55pm

Oddly enough I was talking with my girlfriend on a similar thread. She does volunteer work with the mentally handicapped, and they recently had an organizational day. I asked her, out of curiousness, what the gender ratio was like, and it was predictably dominantly female at 80%~.

But as disablities don't fall at an 80/20 divide the organization are often screaming out for male volunteers. Understandably because their male users are sometimes uncomfortable with female volunteers, or might be too physically strong to pair with most female volunteers, or whatever other reasons might have you. I'm mostly hypothesizing here. They are usually screaming into an empty void.

She asked me why this is, assuming I even wanted to volunteer, the first thing I worried about was: false accusation. The possibility that I might be accused of such a thing would be enough to deter me from aiding. People always believe there is no smoke without fire. This is a terrible thing, and society as a whole suffers. Particularly the male half whom can lack any sort of male role-models growing up or beyond.

But how can this be fixed?

JohnK · 27-06-2011 5:59pm

Feeona wrote: »

My boyfriend was accused by parents of messing with their daughter. She was smart enough to imply that she was in rooms on her own with him without actually coming out and saying it. Excuse my language, but she was a complete and utter b*tch. Her parents leapt on it straight away and asked to speak to the principal. Meetings were held and it turns out that my boyfriend had followed procedure by ensuring he always had the classroom door open when speaking to any student outside of class.
There is a huge worry for men working with children that the child will always be believed over the adult. Not so. My boyfriend still has his job as a teacher, at his last parent teacher-meetings, parents were singing his praises .

I just wanted to throw in a positive story of not only a man working with children, but a man who was accused and came out the other side. Common sense does prevail, and it would be a pity if men were put off working with children because they keep hearing negative stories. These negative stories are very similar to the paedophile lurking in every corner stories that are thrown about. It must be remembered that people who are quick to make false allegations are not all there 99% of the time, and will cause hassle for anyone and everyone, not just for men working with children.

I dont want to be too negative and while I do hope it did all end well chances are that its not as done and dusted as you might think. Its very likely that his employment file now includes a line something like "suspected inappropriate interactions with student" and even though the principle/co-workers are 100% sure your boyfriend was in the right they'll almost certainly have to mention it if he ever goes for a job elsewhere and they are asked for a reference. And even though most of the parents might love him you can be sure there are some arseholes gossiping about how it was all just covered up, not to mention that theres almost certainly some students will start talking about how hes a dirty old man. Gossip might not sound like much but it could very well kill a career.

Feeona · 27-06-2011 8:16pm

JohnK wrote: »

I dont want to be too negative and while I do hope it did all end well chances are that its not as done and dusted as you might think. Its very likely that his employment file now includes a line something like "suspected inappropriate interactions with student" and even though the principle/co-workers are 100% sure your boyfriend was in the right they'll almost certainly have to mention it if he ever goes for a job elsewhere and they are asked for a reference. And even though most of the parents might love him you can be sure there are some arseholes gossiping about how it was all just covered up, not to mention that theres almost certainly some students will start talking about how hes a dirty old man. Gossip might not sound like much but it could very well kill a career.

As a teacher (same for any teacher), he has people making comments about him most days and if he were to pay heed to everything that's said about him, he'd be in a mental home by now.

As for his professional prospects, he's been asked by principals in other schools to come work for them due to the time and effort he puts into training football teams.

Finally I feel that it's way better to assume the good in people. Not everyone's a paedophile, and similarly not everyone is going to spread gossip about a man who's name is cleared. If someone does spread gossip, well most fair minded people would have the sense to treat such talk to be the poison it is.

pragmatic1 · 27-06-2011 8:33pm

the_syco wrote: »

Are you a man or a woman? I ask as "old school" male teachers tend to teach males better (in subjects such as Irish, woodwork, engineering, history, etc).

I'm a man. How so. I had an alcoholic old school male teacher for Irish.

It's a tough life for a man...

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