Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

Carter P Fly · 27-06-2011 01:04PM

I do not believe breakin and entering warrents leathal force on its own as theres nothing in the downstairs of my house worth killing or dying for (that what insurance is for anyways)

However, My wife and daughter sleep upstairs so any attempt to go upstairs and both my life and the intruders life is forfeit. At that point in time My sole duty on this earth is to protect the ones I love more then my own life.

The main goal is always to get them to leave without confrontation but if they persist in trying to get upsatirs when they've been given a verbal warning(s) then they have chosen confrontation and therefore have chosen a path that could and most probably will end in serious injury to themselves or the inhabitants of the home.

rossc007 · 27-06-2011 01:21PM

Carter P Fly wrote: »

I do not believe breakin and entering warrents leathal force on its own as theres nothing in the downstairs of my house worth killing or dying for (that what insurance is for anyways)

However, My wife and daughter sleep upstairs so any attempt to go upstairs and both my life and the intruders life is forfeit. At that point in time My sole duty on this earth is to protect the ones I love more then my own life.

The main goal is always to get them to leave without confrontation but if they persist in trying to get upsatirs when they've been given a verbal warning(s) then they have chosen confrontation and therefore have chosen a path that could and most probably will end in serious injury to themselves or the inhabitants of the home.

Make sure you email them the rules before they break in....

JohnMarston · 27-06-2011 01:39PM

Can you put a sign outside your house and back of the house stating: "Trespassers will be ........." ?

dilallio · 27-06-2011 01:53PM

snyper wrote: »

someone breaks into my home.

I will kill them

Don't forget the 2nd Rule of Zombieland - Double Tap

edit: No real people were harmed in this clip - only Zombies!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyXkv4DHn4E

goodomens · 27-06-2011 02:16PM

This is worrying, there is no chance the house owner had a chance to think about whether his material posessions (which can be replaced) has more value over any human life. Therefore, what was in his heart was that his material posessions have more value over life itself, which shows his view on the worth of others. It shows immaturity, selfishness, and borderline insanity on his part.

The thieves would burgal another house, and eventually get caught (they always do) and justice would be done, they could change, and reform their lives and even willingly compensate for their actions. People have. Everybody deserves a second chance.

Very surprising response for an older man, I'd of thought he'd have some widsdom and understanding under his belt at this stage in his life.

Carter P Fly · 27-06-2011 02:30PM

rossc007 wrote: »

Make sure you email them the rules before they break in....

Eveyone already got that e-mail memo but I guess you just didnt read it.

Seachmall · 27-06-2011 02:31PM

goodomens wrote: »

It shows immaturity, selfishness, and borderline insanity on his part.

No, it just means his instincts took over. If someone broke into my house while I was alone I wouldn't sit there pondering the value of life versus that of property. I'd be looking for something big and sharp. Not necessarily to protect my possessions but to protect MY life.

Ponder it all you want but from my perspective my life, and the lives of my friends and family, are worth more than any scumbag I catch breaking into my house. That's not to say I'd attempt to kill a scumbag breaking in but if push comes to shove that's not a fight I'm gonna lose I wouldn't shed a single tear.

hardCopy · 27-06-2011 02:34PM

goodomens wrote: »

This is worrying, there is no chance the house owner had a chance to think about whether his material posessions (which can be replaced) has more value over any human life. Therefore, what was in his heart was that his material posessions have more value over life itself, which shows his view on the worth of others. It shows immaturity, selfishness, and borderline insanity on his part.

The thieves would burgal another house, and eventually get caught (they always do) and justice would be done, they could change, and reform their lives and even willingly compensate for their actions. People have. Everybody deserves a second chance.

Very surprising response for an older man, I'd of thought he'd have some widsdom and understanding under his belt at this stage in his life.

Boards could do with a "No Thanks" button

Liam Byrne · 27-06-2011 02:47PM

Riskymove wrote: »

hidinginthebush wrote: »

As the home-owners, I'd imagine it would be an awful situation. What can you do?

tbf I think we all picture helpless, average joe, homeowners and evil, tough guy burglars

it is not always like that, as shown here....for all we know the homeowner is a tough nut and the burglars a few kids

Correction : A few criminal thug style "kids" who are happy to don balaclavas, act intimidating, be where they've no right to be and try to take stuff that they've no right to take.

Less of the misguided pathos - trying to make thugs look all sweetie-pie - please.

Liam Byrne · 27-06-2011 02:56PM

Greentopia wrote: »

Thank's for clarifying. The law would see nothing wrong in what you're saying there except for the 'following them off my property with a weapon' bit if you've already overpowered them with your weapon or whatever and they are fleeing.
Going after them with the express intent to kill them goes beyond the 'reasonable force' clause and would leave yourself open to criminal and/or civil charges being brought against you, but I guess you know that and would just take your chances with the law as Nally did.

I don't think it's the route we should be going down in this country. It's a slippery slope argument and would allow anyone to feel vindicated by law to think it's ok to kill any armed or unarmed burglar and pretty soon someone would feel justified in killing that unarmed junkie burglar who only wants to nick someones telly because they also broke into their house. It would lead to vigilante style violence.
That has no place in a civilised society as far as I'm concerned.

This is what always gets me. We KNOW that it has no place in civilised society, however neither does breaking entering or thuggery.

So the double-standards of those who say the above and then reckon the thugs should get rehab or chances or be treated superbly in prision is astounding.

If we are to treat all stuff that "has no place in civilised society" with the same no-tolerance approach, then let's do that.

But giving those who CHOOSE to cause events like this every chance while castigating those who react is disgusting.

The homeowner didn't plan or choose to cause the events that night.

The dead thug did.

Only 4 people caused the events that night and the homeowner wasn't one of them.

At the very least then the other 3 should be charged with being accessories to manslaughter/murder for planning the events that led to the scumbag's death.

Forest Master · 27-06-2011 02:56PM

I'd have no hesitation in beating to death any intruder into my home. No hesitation. I wouldn't call the Gardai afterwards though, as I'd get in trouble. I'd have to just dispose of the bodies in my own time the next day.

rossc007 · 27-06-2011 02:59PM

Carter P Fly wrote: »

Eveyone already got that e-mail memo but I guess you just didnt read it.

I'll check my spam folder

The thieves would burgal another house, and eventually get caught (they always do) and justice would be done, they could change, and reform their lives and even willingly compensate for their actions. People have. Everybody deserves a second chance.

Do you live on that island Arnold Swarzeneggar was brought up on in Twins? If getting caught changed people we'd have practically no crime. If someone is willing to break into your house, they would rather do you harm then get caught, its not hide and go seek.

Reasonable force can legally be applied, but the last thing I'd be worried about if confronted by a stranger in my own home is reasonable force, all I want to do is protect myself and my family by any means available to me.

Demosthenes · 27-06-2011 02:59PM

Padraig Nally would've killed all four of the feckers!

Ficheall · 27-06-2011 03:46PM

goodomens wrote: »

This is worrying, there is no chance the house owner had a chance to think about whether his material posessions (which can be replaced) has more value over any human life. Therefore, what was in his heart was that his material posessions have more value over life itself, which shows his view on the worth of others. It shows immaturity, selfishness, and borderline insanity on his part.

"Scumbags" can be replaced fairly rapidly.
I'd place more value on any possession in my house than the life of someone who broke in to steal it.

goodomens wrote: »

The thieves would burgal another house, and eventually get caught (they always do) and justice would be done, they could change, and reform their lives and even willingly compensate for their actions. People have. Everybody deserves a second chance.

I think I was reading the last that it's about 40% of burglaries are "solved" in this countries. I was surprised it was even that high. How would justice be done, pray tell? I was searching online to try to find some stats of the punishments meted out to burglars in this country, but had little success. What justice do you think they get? How much time do you think these people should serve? Or would some community service or a fine be more appropriate?
Everybody deserves to live in peace and not have their house broken into.

Dr. Jonathan Crane · 27-06-2011 04:10PM

Enter someones home, masked, with 3 others, obviously with the intent to steal/damage property or the people inside, you deserve everything you get.

He was just a kid? He wasn't going to cause any harm? My heart bleeds for him. Shame the home owner didn't get the other 3 scumbags.

cyrusdvirus · 27-06-2011 04:18PM

it's always funny how topics like this polarise the opinions of people

There are the lily livered do gooders saying oh bless him the little thief, he's doing this for reasons you don't understand, don't get in his way, he won't hurt you, and that's what you pay insurance for.

Then there are the people who go to bed wearing full body armour, with a cigar clamped between the teeth, carrying a bewildering array of weapons, who promise death and destruction on all who have anything to do with ANYONE who sets foot on their property without permission!

By the way, i am slightly exaggerating both extremes.

RussellTuring · 27-06-2011 04:23PM

If someone broke into my house, the last thing I'd be thinking about would be the law. However, that doesn't mean I would place a higher value on my possessions than on the life of a person who was trying to steal them. If I thought my life or those of the people I care about were in danger, of course I would use whatever means necessary to protect them but I wouldn't walk downstairs and try stop them from stealing a TV. There are just too many unknowns.

I'd be interested in hearing any justifications people have for believing theft should carry a death sentence.

rossc007 · 27-06-2011 04:25PM

gatecrash wrote: »

it's always funny how topics like this polarise the opinions of people

There are the lily livered do gooders saying oh bless him the little thief, he's doing this for reasons you don't understand, don't get in his way, he won't hurt you, and that's what you pay insurance for.

Then there are the people who go to bed wearing full body armour, with a cigar clamped between the teeth, carrying a bewildering array of weapons, who promise death and destruction on all who have anything to do with ANYONE who sets foot on their property without permission!

By the way, i am slightly exaggerating both extremes.

Erm, you poralized the opinions in the thread and noted how funny it was that people have polarized opinions?

Ditch · 27-06-2011 04:25PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Knock them out I meant, as I think you know.

I agree you stop them moving BUT that does not equal killing them in my book.

So ~ let me just get this straight: You're suggesting that, if four masked guys burst into your home, ye'd simply knock them all spark out?

Are you Chuck Norris ....?

cyrusdvirus · 27-06-2011 04:28PM

rossc007 wrote: »

Erm, you poralized the opinions in the thread and noted how funny it was that people have polarized opinions?

The thread has lasted this long on people like AH and Greentopia having the 'No point in interfering, you have insurance, and theft does not deserve a death sentence' opinion going against the 'Abandon all hope ye who enter here (illegally)' brigade

Ellis Dee · 27-06-2011 04:29PM

Demosthenes wrote: »

Padraig Nally would've killed all four of the feckers!

Mr. Nally was eventually cleared of any crime. The circumstances of his case were unique and I feel it is unfair to him to suggest that he is a bloodthirsty person. Besides, there were two intruders that day and no harm came to the other scumbag.

I am old and most of the time live alone in a rural location with my closest neighbour hundreds of metres away. When I read about old people being attacked in their homes and sometimes left for dead or actually dead and their bodies being discovered by friends or neighbours the following day, I long ago decided I'm not just going to let myself be robbed and do nothing about it; if I did, I think brooding about it afterwards would probably shorten my life anyway. Besides, the papers have reported too many cases of poor old geezers who offered no resistance being tortured to make them tell where the money was.

No siree, I made my preparations years ago, and if they are coming to my house to rob me, they'd better kill me right away, because I have daggers strapped to the undersides of tables and in other places that I can reach if I only get a split second, and then at least one of the intruders will taste Swedish steel like this (http://staticb.mostphotos.com/b/500x450.watermarks/500000/548029.jpg). Whatever happens to me then, at least the Gardai will have something to go on - in the form of the DNA in the blood on the floor, not all of it mine. Since the chances are they'd kill me anyway after they robbed me, I don't reckon I have all that much to lose and I'd sooner spend the next few years in the hoosegow if I have to than in the cemetery.:):)

rossc007 · 27-06-2011 04:34PM

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Mr. Nally was eventually cleared of any crime. The circumstances of his case were unique and I feel it is unfair to him to suggest that he is a bloodthirsty person. Besides, there were two intruders that day and no harm came to the other scumbag.

I am old and most of the time live alone in a rural location with my closest neighbour hundreds of metres away. When I read about old people being attacked in their homes and sometimes left for dead or actually dead and their bodies being discovered by friends or neighbours the following day, I long ago decided I'm not just going to let myself be robbed and do nothing about it; if I did, I think brooding about it afterwards would probably shorten my life anyway. Besides, the papers have reported too many cases of poor old geezers who offered no resistance being tortured to make them tell where the money was.

No siree, I made my preparations years ago, and if they are coming to my house to rob me, they'd better kill me right away, because I have daggers strapped to the undersides of tables and in other places that I can reach if I only get a split second, and then at least one of the intruders will taste Swedish steel like this (http://staticb.mostphotos.com/b/500x450.watermarks/500000/548029.jpg). Whatever happens to me then, at least the Gardai will have something to go on - in the form of the DNA in the blood on the floor, not all of it mine. Since the chances are they'd kill me anyway after they robbed me, I don't reckon I have all that much to lose and I'd sooner spend the next few years in the hoosegow if I have to than in the cemetery.:):)

:eek: Cripes Ellis, I had you pegged for a harry chrisna, flower throwing sort, seems your a closet ninja. I must admit, I've never thought about hiding weapons around the house.

Seachmall · 27-06-2011 04:35PM

RussellTuring wrote: »

I'd be interested in hearing any justifications people have for believing theft should carry a death sentence.

By coming into my house uninvited you have put me in a fight or flight position and as I'm genetically hardwired to defend my home, along with it's occupants, you have, knowingly or otherwise, accepted the risks involved in doing so.

If you jump off a bridge and get hurt no one will have sympathy. If you break into my, or anyone else's, house and get hurt no one will have sympathy and most will have contempt.

I'm not saying burglars deserve to die, I'm saying it's a risk they take and I don't care if it's one that comes to fruition.

AudreyHepburn · 27-06-2011 04:37PM

RussellTuring wrote: »

If someone broke into my house, the last thing I'd be thinking about would be the law. However, that doesn't mean I would place a higher value on my possessions than on the life of a person who was trying to steal them. If I thought my life or those of the people I care about were in danger, of course I would use whatever means necessary to protect them but I wouldn't walk downstairs and try stop them from stealing a TV. There are just too many unknowns.

I'd be interested in hearing any justifications people have for believing theft should carry a death sentence.

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make and I fail to see why it garnered such sniping and sarcasim tbh.

Do I believe we should have the right to defend ourselves in our own homes? Yes of course I do.

If my own or my family's lives were danger, there is no question I would do what I had to to keep them safe.

However I do not believe that we should have the right to kill indiscriminatly. I do not believe that your first reaction on finding an intruder in the house should be blow him/her away.

It is a dangerous mindset imo to believe you have the right to take the law into your own hands and I for one would rather not live in a vigilante society.

Seachmall · 27-06-2011 04:43PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

However I do not believe that we should have the right to kill indiscriminatly. I do not believe that your first reaction on finding an intruder in the house should be blow him/her away.

It is a dangerous mindset imo to believe you have the right to take the law into your own hands and I for one would rather not live in a vigilante society.

It's not a conscious decision to kill the intruder, if that can be proven in court you would get done for premeditated murder (e.g. leaving the relative safety of your room to murder someone in downstairs), it's an instinctive one.

The first instinct is to investigate the noise. If someone is found the second instinct is fighting (flight doesn't emerge here because we're hardwired to protect or abode, like a mother goose over her nest). These are risks all burglars take. These instincts kept our ancestors alive and are the reasons we are here today, you shouldn't be surprised we've all got the ability to kill when danger is perceived and we shouldn't punish people for reacting the same way we all would when they ultimately pose no danger to anyone (except for those who put them in danger).

Ellis Dee · 27-06-2011 04:43PM

rossc007 wrote: »

:eek: Cripes Ellis, I had you pegged for a harry chrisna, flower throwing sort, seems your a closet ninja. I must admit, I've never thought about hiding weapons around the house.

Let's just hope any scumbags that invade my home to rob or harm me similarly misjudge me - for a fraction of a second is all I'd need.

;);)

AudreyHepburn · 27-06-2011 04:46PM

Seachmall wrote: »

It's not a conscious decision to kill the intruder, if that can be proven in court you would get done for premeditated murder (e.g. leaving the relative safety of your room to murder someone in downstairs), it's an instinctive one.

The first instinct is to investigate the noise. If someone is found the second instinct is fighting (flight doesn't emerge here because we're hardwired to protect or abode, like a mother goose over her nest). These are risks all burglars take. These instincts kept our ancestors alive and are the reasons we are here today, you shouldn't be surprised we've all got the ability to kill when danger is perceived and we shouldn't punish people for reacting the same we all would.

The majority of people on this thread, yourself included if I am reading your post right, have said that they would have no hesitiation in killing any and all who enter their homes unlawfully. They have made the decision to kill already.

Forest Master · 27-06-2011 04:55PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The majority of people on this thread, yourself included if I am reading your post right, have said that they would have no hesitiation in killing any and all who enter their homes unlawfully. They have made the decision to kill already.

Twisted logic. I haven't made the decision "to" kill, as you put it - I've merely established in my own mind the extreme circumstances that would push me to it. Huge difference.

Seachmall · 27-06-2011 04:56PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The majority of people on this thread, yourself included if I am reading your post right, have said that they would have no hesitiation in killing any and all who enter their homes unlawfully. They have made the decision to kill already.

When I get into a fight I don't consciously decide every punch I'm going to throw but I can tell you now I would do my best to defend myself.

If someone breaks into my house I wouldn't consciously decide to kill the intruder but I can tell you now I would do my best to defend my family and myself.

During a burglary our instincts take over. Our instincts don't deal with ownership of property they deal with protecting our home and the lives of those in our home when danger is perceived (and the ultimate danger our ancestors faced was tribal and animal attacks at home hence why we, and animals in dangerous environments, pick homes as securely as possible (e.g. in trees, underground etc. or just well fortified homes)).

A man can be a coward on the street but you break into his house and he will demolish you with everything he has. On the street his flight instinct will take priority (assuming he's not a dominant personality) and he will flee to the safest place he knows, you threaten that safety and you are threatening everything he has.

Someone who kills a burglar isn't consciously killing for his flatscreen TV, he is instinctively killing for his livelihood (remember these are the instincts that kept our ancestors alive and with each generation they theoretically got stronger). It may seem like an abstract rationale but most of our fight or flight instincts today seem unnecessary (ever stand on front of your class in school and just want to run to the bathroom?) but they are what make us who we are none-the-less.

If you walk, in the dead of night, into a commune of chimps (our closest ancestors) do you think they'd consider that maybe you're there to pick leaves from the tree or would they kill you to defend the commune? This is how our instincts work, some might over-ride their instincts and hide but instincts like these that are so ingrained in us and are so essential to our survival they are difficult to suppress. Particularly if you've come face-to-face with the intruder whilst investigating a seemingly innocuous noise.

RussellTuring · 27-06-2011 05:07PM

Seachmall wrote: »

By coming into my house uninvited you have put me in a fight or flight position and as I'm genetically hardwired to defend my home, along with it's occupants, you have, knowingly or otherwise, accepted the risks involved in doing so.

Do you have a source for this "hardwiring" you keep talking about? Anyway, how can anyone accept risks of which they are not aware? I could just as easily say that anyone I invite into my home accepts the possibility that they will be raped, whether or not they realise it. It doesn't mean I have a case.

If you jump off a bridge and get hurt no one will have sympathy. If you break into my, or anyone else's, house and get hurt no one will have sympathy and most will have contempt.

The difference is that gravity does not have a consciousness whereas you clearly do. You have a choice over your decision to kill someone or not. As I've said already, I would kill someone else if I thought it would protect my life or that of someone I know, but I still don't see how burglary equates to a death wish. At least not in what I would consider a civilised society.

I'm not saying burglars deserve to die, I'm saying it's a risk they take and I don't care if it's one that comes to fruition.

Well I do care if I end the life of another person, no matter what they may have done to bring it on.

Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

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