Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

spannerotoole · 24-06-2011 05:40AM

irish-stew wrote: »

They probably have to arrest in all cases, after all, someone was murdered.

After all the facts have been established s/he would either be released without charge, ie, they used reasonable force to protect them selfs/family, no further action taken. Or if more than reasonable force is is used, ie, if they stabbed them more times than was nesseseary, or excessivly, then charge and possible prosecutuion.

How many times is neccesary?

pragmatic1 · 24-06-2011 06:02AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Burglary is not a capital offense. Unless your own life or the life of someone else is being directly threatened, there is no excuse for killing another human being. Even if lives are at risk, it's still not an excuse unless you have absolutely no choice.

It astounds me how many people seem to think that you can override the law if you own a place. We're not effing cavemen anymore, the law still applies regardless of whose house you're in. One of the laws is that you are not allowed to kill another person. Their breaking of the law, does not give you automatic license to break it yourself.

If you want to live in that kind of society you could always move to America where "Get off my lawn! *bang*" is considered a reasonable reaction to trespassers...

Four people breaking into a house wearing masks could turn very nasty for the owner. The man was well within his rights to protect himself. Its regrettable that someone got killed, but if you dont break into someones property with intentions of doing them harm things like this can be avoided.

Manic Moran · 24-06-2011 06:22AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Even if lives are at risk, it's still not an excuse unless you have absolutely no choice.

Erm.. If lives are at risk, that's a perfect reason for using lethal force. Pretty much by definition. Once a life is at risk, I'd rather his life than mine be the one at risk.

If you want to live in that kind of society you could always move to America where "Get off my lawn! *bang*" is considered a reasonable reaction to trespassers...

I did. I haven't been burgled yet. Plus, it must be said, I have never trespassed, probably part of the reason I have not yet been shot, stabbed, or otherwise killed by a homeowner or other resident.

NTM

Ellis Dee · 24-06-2011 06:39AM

irish-stew wrote: »

They probably have to arrest in all cases, after all, someone was murdered.

The statement I have boldfaced and underlined is incorrect. A person died in the incident and three people have been arrested on suspicion of murder. It has not been determined that anyone was murdered.

Only a court of law will determine, assuming the CPS even brings charges, what crime - if any - was committed and by whom.

Optimalprimerib · 24-06-2011 07:48AM

Gung ho response from the safety of my leaba: I would gladly go to prison for any common uncompromising nasty thugs that broke into my house.

Likely response: would gladly hide under my bed as they took what they want

Greentopia · 24-06-2011 08:08AM

It'll be interesting to see when the full facts about the case become clear just what the circumstances were surrounding that guy's death.

I wonder who owned the knife that killed the intruder. Wouldn't it be ironic if he was killed with his own knife that the householder had managed to wrest off him and use against him?

A knife he no doubt would have/may have used to threaten and perhaps then even stab or kill other members of the family in the house at the time if they had put up a fight. By doing what he did the householder who stabbed and killed Bennell may possibly have saved the lives of his son or his son's girlfriend as it caused the three others to flee along with the fatally injured burglar.

I wonder why four of them attempted to break in as well. If they were there 'only' to rob the place wouldn't they have felt less conspicuous and less likely to have been disturbed or heard by neighbours or the occupants if only one or two of them went in?

Makes me think perhaps they may have either gone there to rob them AND overpower the three occupants of the house and do god knows what harm to them, or maybe they had something against the people in the house and
they were there not to rob but to maim or kill them-it's only a 'suspected' robbery according to the police.

If it was a mansion that had lots of valuables to rob sure like the case of the home of the solicitor Gerald Keane and his missus that got broken into here in Wicklow, but they're obviously loaded; but four of them to rob what looks like an ordinary terraced house in a not terribly posh area of Salford(I'm assuming)?

Of course maybe they didn't think like that and just figured four made it quicker to rob the place and get out. I wouldn't presume to know how the mind of a burglar works :pac:

Sonnenblumen · 24-06-2011 08:30AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Burglary is not a capital offense. Unless your own life or the life of someone else is being directly threatened, there is no excuse for killing another human being. Even if lives are at risk, it's still not an excuse unless you have absolutely no choice.
...

Some conflicting confusion here? Everyone has the right to use reasonable force to defend themselves, especially if one is threatened or feels threatened. The question is what would be considered 'reasonable'?

The current system bias in favour of criminals is a joke and needs to be redressed.

cyrusdvirus · 24-06-2011 08:38AM

My dogs would take care of any intruders...

I'd come down in the morning to see the 2 mutts paddling about in a puddle and a burglar after being licked to death. bestest guard dogs ever my 2 are!!

On a slightly more serious note there is so far only one post on this thread that comes close to what my response would be.

Daroxtar wrote:

If someone breaks into your house you do one of two things.
1/ You freeze/sh!t yourself
2/ You attack with whatever you can grab and do as much damage as possible.

In neither of the above cases do you actually do much thinking. You dont get the chance to light some candles and offer the intruder a cup of camomile tea. If someone is in your house with criminal intent then I'm sorry, but fúck them, they're the ones playing with their own life and if they lose then thats their own tough shít.

And i don't know what my reaction would be. In fight situations that I've been in, both reactions have happened, I have frozen.... And I have completely flipped. It's not something I'm proud of, but in 2 of the flip situations the other guy has ended up in hospital. In the freeze situations, I've ended up in hospital once.

Leaving aside the if someone broke into my house talk, in THIS situation I feel there is a lot more to it than meets the eye, and the residents of the house may not be squeaky clean.

Having said that, if Padraig Nally did stand for president, I'd have no problem whatsoever giving him my vote.

And i think that the abolition of the death penalty in this state was a mistake, it should have been left there. It was only for use in cases of Capital Crimes, which to my knowledge were the murder of a TD, or visiting diplomat, Garda, or Soldier in the course of their duties.

We send the Gardai out on the streets armed with a nightstick and a radio, and don't give them the protection of the possibility of a death sentence? I don't think that should be the case, but am taking it OT.

Greentopia · 24-06-2011 08:54AM

This thread does make me consider what my response would be if someone was to break into my place.

I certainly wouldn't be gung ho to try and kill anyone, that's for sure.
I know that as a slightly built 5' 4 female the chances of me killing or sufficiently maiming any intruder would be close to zero, unless of course I was forced to try to defend myself against an attacker who was trying to rape or kill me, in which case I'd take my chances with whatever weapon I had to hand.

I find frankly ludicrous the idea that I (or indeed any female who's not a self-defence or martial arts expert) could overpower, or as someone else put it "subdue the intruder".

Now I totally go along with the idea of it's preferable to maim rather than kill an attacker (I wouldn't want someones death on my conscience no matter how much of a criminal they were) but why I would possibly want to put myself in any more danger by trying to "if you are threatened, subdue an intruder" who may not know I'm even in the house and may only want to get in, rob the place, and leave as fast as they can, is beyond me.

Again it's completely different if I was being attacked but she didn't put it in that context.

And even if I did try and use a kitchen knife or a club against them there's a reasonable chance they might be able to take it off me (especially if they're any way strong) and use it against me!

No, my first line of defense if someone broke in would be to either flee my home if I possibly could, or else lock myself in the bedroom and climb out the window.

If none of those two possibilities were possible, and only if I were being physically attacked would I ever take on an intruder in my home.
Anything else is asking for trouble. From my point of view anyway.

Greentopia · 24-06-2011 09:01AM

gatecrash wrote: »

We send the Gardai out on the streets armed with a nightstick and a radio, and don't give them the protection of the possibility of a death sentence? I don't think that should be the case, but am taking it OT.

Not to drag it OT either but I agree it's ludicrous. I think the Gardai should be armed as they are in most other European countries. Don't agree with re-introducing the death penalty. The E.U. would never allow it anyway as it's a condition of E.U. membership to have it abolished from a country's statute books.

mconigol · 24-06-2011 09:23AM

Greentopia wrote: »

Not to drag it OT either but I agree it's ludicrous. I think the Gardai should be armed as they are in most other European countries. Don't agree with re-introducing the death penalty. The E.U. would never allow it anyway as it's a condition of E.U. membership to have it abolished from a country's statute books.

Maybe no death penalty but how about an actual realistic life sentence? I don't see why extremely violent offenders couldn't be effectively banished to an oil rig out in the Atlantic to fend for themselves.

--Kaiser-- · 24-06-2011 09:30AM

This guy should get a medal IMO

JohnMarston · 24-06-2011 09:32AM

Think about it, he would in all probability still be alive if he didn't decide to take what wasn't his.

Greentopia · 24-06-2011 09:45AM

mconigol wrote: »

Maybe no death penalty but how about an actual realistic life sentence? I don't see why extremely violent offenders couldn't be effectively banished to an oil rig out in the Atlantic to fend for themselves.

Totally agree but outside of unworkable solutions like banishments to oil rigs mandatory life sentences for the very worst offenders should mean just that, life. Some prisoners can and should be rehabilitated I think if they're eventually going back out to society, but that's a lost cause for others like many paedophiles.
/OT

cyrusdvirus · 24-06-2011 09:47AM

Greentopia wrote: »

Totally agree but outside of unworkable solutions like banishments to oil rigs mandatory life sentences for the very worst offenders should mean just that, life. Some prisoners can and should be rehabilitated I think if they're eventually going back out to society, but that's a lost cause for others like many paedophiles.
/OT

New thread time methinks.

discus · 24-06-2011 09:50AM

Greentopia wrote: »

This thread does make me consider what my response would be if someone was to break into my place.

I certainly wouldn't be gung ho to try and kill anyone, that's for sure.
I know that as a slightly built 5' 4 female the chances of me killing or sufficiently maiming any intruder would be close to zero, unless of course I was forced to try to defend myself against an attacker who was trying to rape or kill me, in which case I'd take my chances with whatever weapon I had to hand.

I find frankly ludicrous the idea that I (or indeed any female who's not a self-defence or martial arts expert) could overpower, or as someone else put it "subdue the intruder".

By the time you realise you're about to be killed or raped, it's unlikely that you're going to get out of it unless you have a gun or knife in your hand.

mconigol · 24-06-2011 09:53AM

Greentopia wrote: »

Totally agree but outside of unworkable solutions like banishments to oil rigs mandatory life sentences for the very worst offenders should mean just that, life. Some prisoners can and should be rehabilitated I think if they're eventually going back out to society, but that's a lost cause for others like many paedophiles.
/OT

To be honest I really don't see how a type of banishment is unworkable. Everyday thousands of people live and work in tough environments like oil rigs and they manage to survive.

I'm talking about those people who are beyond rehabilitation however, serious repeat offenders, the extremely violent etc.

If they had regular delivery of supplies then they would be no worse off than many millions of people around the developing world, remote tribes and the like. If you choose to violently reject our society then society should eject those people from it in my opinion.

You can't have the privileges of civilized society while at the same time abusing and disrespecting those very same privileges. If your body has a cancer you generally try to get rid of it, same should go for society.

Greentopia · 24-06-2011 09:53AM

gatecrash wrote: »

New thread time methinks.

Sure, if ya want

Greentopia · 24-06-2011 10:01AM

discus wrote: »

By the time you realise you're about to be killed or raped, it's unlikely that you're going to get out of it unless you have a gun or knife in your hand.

True. And I'd have to know how to use the gun for a start! and be able and willing to use either without mercy. Not sure I could kill someone no matter what, probably the most I could expect is to badly injure them, but who knows in that situation.

cyrusdvirus · 24-06-2011 10:03AM

Greentopia wrote: »

Sure, if ya want

Sneaky ninja edit!!

Greentopia · 24-06-2011 10:06AM

gatecrash wrote: »

Sneaky ninja edit!!

Ha, caught rapid! yeah sorry, was logging off but then I saw I had replies. Now I really do have to go.

mconigol · 24-06-2011 11:10AM

I reckon this is how 90% of posters spend their time at home!

the_syco · 24-06-2011 11:43AM

hondasam wrote: »

what has it cost Padraig Nally ?

He went to jail and now lives in fear. That's no way to live.

I would be in favour of protecting my home but I'm not prepared to go to jail for it.

I believe Padraig was living in fear of being broken into before the break-in. He probably still lives in fear, but people will probably think twice about robbing him.

=-=

I refuse to implicate myself by stating what I'd do in case it is used against me as part of a case in the future.

Run_to_da_hills · 24-06-2011 02:32PM

Burglar 'knifed to death by homeowner' was on bail for another suspected burglary

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2007232/John-Leonard-Bennell-Burglar-stabbed-death-bail.html

24-06-2011 02:45PM

Id rather be judged by 12 men, than carried by 6, so regardless of the law, if anyone broke into my home, where my daughter lies, Id kill them before they killed me or her.

getz · 24-06-2011 02:46PM

the were very foolish trying to rob a house in salford,if you know salford as i do,you find that there is a number of the large hard families living there,mostly irish and maltese they all seem to be connected,goes back to the manchester docks and shipping,i am not for one minute saying that the flanigans are connected to them,but the idiots were taking a big chance trying to rob a salford house

jackal · 24-06-2011 03:02PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Burglary is not a capital offense. Unless your own life or the life of someone else is being directly threatened, there is no excuse for killing another human being. Even if lives are at risk, it's still not an excuse unless you have absolutely no choice.

It astounds me how many people seem to think that you can override the law if you own a place. We're not effing cavemen anymore, the law still applies regardless of whose house you're in. One of the laws is that you are not allowed to kill another person. Their breaking of the law, does not give you automatic license to break it yourself.

If you want to live in that kind of society you could always move to America where "Get off my lawn! *bang*" is considered a reasonable reaction to trespassers...

"Sorry there lads... oh... nice hockey masks, oh and what big knives you have.

May I ask can you clarify your intentions? Are ye just after the loot or is rape and murder also on the agenda? Maybe it would be quicker if you just fill in this survey so I can decide whether or not I am directly threatened".

booboo88 · 24-06-2011 03:07PM

Riskymove wrote: »

someone was arrested on "suspicion of murder" so its a little bit further along than that

we do not have the automatic right to kill people, even those that are commiting a crime

i thought if it was self defense?
or is that in america?

Raiser · 24-06-2011 05:03PM

At least we know that in Ireland you can follow an attempted Burglar out of your House and down the way while shooting them in the back multiple times and still walk free......

Ellis Dee · 24-06-2011 05:09PM

booboo88 wrote: »

i thought if it was self defense?
or is that in america?

Yes, in America it's self defense.

Here, it's self-defence.:):)

Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

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