Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

The King of Moo · 23-06-2011 04:45PM

amacachi wrote: »

If you stab someone until they're incapacitated there's not many ways to do that that wouldn't involve them bleeding out in minutes or cutting their tendons etc.

And if the burglar died from that, I'd still say it was reasonable force and the family shouldn't be prosecuted. Bad luck for the burglar but he brought it on himself.
But if it turned out he was stabbed more times than would be considered reasonable, then they should be looking at some punishment, with some leniency provided given the mitigating circumstances.

amacachi · 23-06-2011 04:47PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Again drop the dismissive tone. It doesn't make you look smart or make your opinions any more right.

Have you been in many fights? I've been in a few, taken beatens and given them but never got knocked out, knocked a couple out though. Outside of a small percentage of people it takes an implement to knock most people out. Once you use a weapon to beat someone around the head you're in very risky territory.

Wibbs · 23-06-2011 04:48PM

amacachi wrote: »

Knock them? What does that mean? Shoot them in a limb so they bleed out? With the type of people who break into houses the only way you know you're safe is when they stop moving.

Like I said in my last post, this is a common refrain from the more liberal(on this point anyway) folks in society. Folks who've luckily never had to get into an actual fight, much less one where serious injury or even death may occur.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Knock them out I meant, as I think you know.

I agree you stop them moving BUT that does not equal killing them in my book.

Have you any clue how hard it is to knock someone out or to stop them moving enough t render them safe? I'm not trying to be dismissive AH. It's hard. Trained and highly skilled boxers have a hard enough time doing so. Unless you've got the drop on them and are much larger, well trained in the hows or packing a heavy item. Then lets say you do that and whack someone on the back of the head with say a wine bottle. It aint like the movies, that runs the serious risk of brain damage or even death. Karate chop to the back of the neck a la James Bond? Nope again only in the movies and highly unlikely it would work. I've witnessed a guy get a hurl across the chops that broke his jaw, spat three teeth out and still he got up. The human body is designed to take impacts, fairly heavy impacts and keep on going. Goes double for the male of the species. Three self defence classes and hope doesn't change that.

IMHO the best bet is always always run, scream get the fcuk outa dodge. The second best bet is compliance in the face of odds stacked against you, the third and very final option if the first two are off the table is attack and you better be prepared to go all the way. No quarter given nor expected.

WHIP IT! · 23-06-2011 04:48PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

There is no need to be dismissive.

We don't know what it was to be fair.

I was making the point that we don't, and shouldn't, automatically have the right to kill intruders.

If you have to subdue some-one why not knock them, shoot them in a limb etc. I don't believe you should kill unless it is a you or them situation.

Well you should have explained that you were SAS trained, Audrey...

If four people masked intruders entered my house when my family was sleeping, out of sheer panic, if a knife came my way, I'm pretty sure if I got my hands on one of them I would stab away til they stopped moving.

I wouldn't have the presence of mind - faced with a terrifying situation, the like of which I've never been in before - to say to myself "Hmmm, I think I'll just wing him a bit here - that'll learn him!"

You're living in Dreamland if you think Joe or Josephine Public would be able to think so rationally and clearly in such a situation.

A pal of mine was broken into a few weeks back and as they were downstairs, his wife pysically restrained him to keep him from going down and confronting them - preferring to ring the police.

In the cold light of the following morning, he was grateful she did because he knew - with their young daughter sleeping soundly in the house - he would not have been in the frame of mind to think logically once he got down those stairs.

Ficheall · 23-06-2011 04:49PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If you have to subdue some-one why not knock them, shoot them in a limb etc. I don't believe you should kill unless it is a you or them situation.

Right - you've a knife, not a gun. How are you planning to "knock out" four guys? Perhaps you could offer them a cool refreshing glass of water... WITH ROHYPNOL IN IT!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!

mconigol · 23-06-2011 04:51PM

Riskymove wrote: »

of course not, but perhaps letting them now you are aware of them is the first course of action, I think most burglars would leg it

immediately throwing yourself into a confrontation or a knifefight is pretty dangerous for yourself too you know

No one is saying anything about immediately throwing yourself into a knife fight.

Anyway the confrontation is initiated by the person breaking in. Plenty of burglars do not leg it, there are loads of cases of people being tied up and left to die.

If the people breaking in were aware that they could be legally killed they might think twice and as far as I am concerned it should be every homeowners right to defend not just themselves but also their property.

Hank_Jones · 23-06-2011 04:51PM

If that was here, by the time the Gardai got to the house, the group would have time to tie everyone up, go off and rent a truck and empty the house.

That's if the Gardai even do arrive.

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 04:51PM

WHIP IT! wrote: »

If four people masked intruders entered my house when my family was sleeping, out of sheer panic, if a knife came my way, I'm pretty sure if I got my hands on one of them I would stab away til they stopped moving.

so instead of losing a stereo, your family lose you as they turn the knife on you!

Daroxtar · 23-06-2011 04:52PM

If someone breaks into your house you do one of two things.
1/ You freeze/sh!t yourself
2/ You attack with whatever you can grab and do as much damage as possible.

In neither of the above cases do you actually do much thinking. You dont get the chance to light some candles and offer the intruder a cup of camomile tea. If someone is in your house with criminal intent then I'm sorry, but fúck them, they're the ones playing with their own life and if they lose then thats their own tough shít.

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 04:53PM

mconigol wrote: »

No one is saying anything about immediately throwing yourself into a knife fight.

i think you need to read this thread again

mconigol · 23-06-2011 04:53PM

Riskymove wrote: »

so instead of losing a stereo, your family lose you as they turn the knife on you!

That's a ridiculous argument. Everyone should at least have the legal right to defend themselves. Whether they choose to exercise that right is another matter however getting arrested after some thug breaks into YOUR home is laughable.

AudreyHepburn · 23-06-2011 04:54PM

Ficheall wrote: »

Right - you've a knife, not a gun. How are you planning to "knock out" four guys? Perhaps you could offer them a cool refreshing glass of water... WITH ROHYPNOL IN IT!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Well you should have explained that you were SAS trained, Audrey...

If four people masked intruders entered my house when my family was sleeping, out of sheer panic, if a knife came my way, I'm pretty sure if I got my hands on one of them I would stab away til they stopped moving.

I wouldn't have the presence of mind - faced with a terrifying situation, the like of which I've never been in before - to say to myself "Hmmm, I think I'll just wing him a bit here - that'll learn him!"

You're living in Dreamland if you think Joe or Josephine Public would be able to think so rationally and clearly in such a situation.

A pal of mine was broken into a few weeks back and as they were downstairs, his wife pysically restrained him to keep him from going down and confronting them - preferring to ring the police.

In the cold light of the following morning, he was grateful she did because he knew - with their young daughter sleeping soundly in the house - he would not have been in the frame of mind to think logically once he got down those stairs.

Wibbs wrote: »

Like I said in my last post, this is a common refrain from the more liberal(on this point anyway) folks in society. Folks who've luckily never had to get into an actual fight, much less one where serious injury or even death may occur.

Have you any clue how hard it is to knock someone out or to stop them moving enough t render them safe? I'm not trying to be dismissive AH. It's hard. Trained and highly skilled boxers have a hard enough time doing so. Unless you've got the drop on them and are much larger, well trained in the hows or packing a heavy item. Then lets say you do that and whack someone on the back of the head with say a wine bottle. It aint like the movies, that runs the serious risk of brain damage or even death. Karate chop to the back of the neck a la James Bond? Nope again only in the movies and highly unlikely it would work. I've witnessed a guy get a hurl across the chops that broke his jaw, spat three teeth out and still he got up. The human body is designed to take impacts, fairly heavy impacts and keep on going. Goes double for the male of the species. Three self defence classes and hope doesn't change that.

IMHO the best bet is always always run, scream get the fcuk outa dodge. The second best bet is compliance in the face of odds stacked against you, the third and very final option if the first two are off the table is attack and you better be prepared to go all the way. No quarter given nor expected.

amacachi wrote: »

Have you been in many fights? I've been in a few, taken beatens and given them but never got knocked out, knocked a couple out though. Outside of a small percentage of people it takes an implement to knock most people out. Once you use a weapon to beat someone around the head you're in very risky territory.

Ah here now, there is absolutly no call whatsoever for all that arrogant, condscending bullcrap.

But then maybe you all know much better than me :rolleyes:

mconigol · 23-06-2011 04:55PM

Riskymove wrote: »

i think you need to read this thread again

"no one" is a term of speech. I was referring to myself.

grizzly · 23-06-2011 04:56PM

They needed this guy sleeping upstairs.

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 04:56PM

mconigol wrote: »

That's a ridiculous argument.

whats ridiculous about it

this is not the States where we have Uzis under the bed, the kind of thin g talked about here is people deciding to grab a kitchen knife and attack a burglar

I think in such a situation you are just as likely to end up injured or killed as the burglar

its very easy to be gung ho on the internet

Everyone should at least have the legal right to defend themselves.

they do, within reasonable limits

WHIP IT! · 23-06-2011 04:57PM

Riskymove wrote: »

so instead of losing a stereo, your family lose you as they turn the knife on you!

I'll use Daroxtar's succinct post to answer your question. The point is, people are talking about this like it's a chess match where u go "Hmm, let me consider my next option here..."

It's not, it's terrifying blind panic - I'm guessing that what I would do is ferociously attack at the first given opportunity to defend my family - or maybe I'd curl up in a corner and freeze, who knows... But I know, rational person that I am, that whatever I (or anyone else) did would be fueled by panic and survival instinct.

Daroxtar

If someone breaks into your house you do one of two things.
1/ You freeze/sh!t yourself
2/ You attack with whatever you can grab and do as much damage as possible.

In neither of the above cases do you actually do much thinking. You dont get the chance to light some candles and offer the intruder a cup of camomile tea. If someone is in your house with criminal intent then I'm sorry, but fúck them, they're the ones playing with their own life and if they lose then thats their own tough shít.

amacachi · 23-06-2011 04:57PM

Daroxtar wrote: »

If someone breaks into your house you do one of two things.
1/ You freeze/sh!t yourself
2/ You attack with whatever you can grab and do as much damage as possible.

In neither of the above cases do you actually do much thinking. You dont get the chance to light some candles and offer the intruder a cup of camomile tea. If someone is in your house with criminal intent then I'm sorry, but fúck them, they're the ones playing with their own life and if they lose then thats their own tough shít.

Exactly right. Again I've been in fights and personally speaking there's no clear thinking involved. I've run from situations that on reflection I shouldn't have run from and have stayed in others I should've run from. When someone jumps you or threatens you you react with the "fight or flight" thing, as much of a cliche as that may be.

Ficheall · 23-06-2011 04:57PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But then maybe you all know much better than me :rolleyes:

Evidently...

Daroxtar · 23-06-2011 04:57PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

AH ,

you all know much better than me

FYP

hidinginthebush · 23-06-2011 04:58PM

Riskymove wrote: »

tbf I think we all picture helpless, average joe, homeowners and evil, tough guy burglars

it is not always like that, as shown here....for all we know the homeowner is a tough nut and the burglars a few kids

Though in most cases the type of person who breaks into a house is more likely to be willing to use a knife than the scared-sh!tless resident.

AudreyHepburn · 23-06-2011 04:59PM

Ficheall wrote: »

Evidently...

Daroxtar wrote: »

FYP

Grow up and cop on.

Just because I won't go out of my way to kill intruders does not give anyone the right to sneer at me.

getz · 23-06-2011 04:59PM

the problem was that a knife was used,that says[in law]that it was the intention to murder,if a poker,bread roller,or a house hold object was used,you may get away with it,anyway who is daft enough to try and rob a house in salford ?.its full of nutters

mikom · 23-06-2011 05:00PM

amacachi wrote: »

Have you been in many fights? I've been in a few, taken beatens

Vicky Pollard?

TheReverend · 23-06-2011 05:01PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Grow up and cop on.

Just because I won't go out of my way to kill intruders does not give anyone the right to sneer at me.

*sneer* *sneer*

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 05:01PM

hidinginthebush wrote: »

Though in most cases the type of person who breaks into a house is more likely to be willing to use a knife than the scared-sh!tless resident.

yes thats probably true

WHIP IT! · 23-06-2011 05:01PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Grow up and cop on.

Just because I won't go out of my way to kill intruders does not give anyone the right to sneer at me.

Would you listen to yourself. Ridiculous.

You make it sound like the homeowner in the OP was sitting behind a wall of sandbags in his kitchen with a deerstalker hat on, shooting people and saying "Yee haw, got another one!"

mconigol · 23-06-2011 05:02PM

Riskymove wrote: »

whats ridiculous about it

this is not the States where we have Uzis under the bed, the kind of thin g talked about here is people deciding to grab a kitchen knife and attack a burglar

I think in such a situation you are just as likely to end up injured or killed as the burglar

its very easy to be gung ho on the internet

they do, within reasonable limits

I'm not being gung ho.

You don't have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself in your own home. If you did this thread probably wouldn't exist.

The burglar is the one who has initiated the confrontation. Do you not get that? You're not attacking the poor burglar, you're defending yourself. You have no idea how the situation will unfold and therefore should be entitled to pre-empt any perceived threat.

Not just that but even if you do not choose to get into a confrontation but you subsequently do and end up killing the intruder/attacker then at the very minimum you should be legally protected.

Irishstabber · 23-06-2011 05:03PM

Riskymove wrote: »

someone was arrested on "suspicion of murder" so its a little bit further along than that

we do not have the automatic right to kill people, even those that are commiting a crime

I look forward to the day your house is entered illegally by 4 masked men in the middle of the night.

AudreyHepburn · 23-06-2011 05:03PM

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Would you listen to yourself. Ridiculous.

You make it sound like the homeowner in the OP was sitting behind a wall of sandbags in his kitchen with a deerstalker hat on, shooting people and saying "Yee haw, got another one!"

Get off your pedestal.

As others have said we don't know what the situation was and I simply believe that while we should of course have the right to defend yourself,it has to be within reasonable limits.

The Aussie · 23-06-2011 05:04PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But then maybe you all know much better than me :rolleyes:

Well..... Yes

Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

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