Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

Dacelonid · 23-06-2011 04:21PM

Riskymove wrote: »

someone was arrested on "suspicion of murder" so its a little bit further along than that

we do not have the automatic right to kill people, even those that are commiting a crime

True enough, but the other side to that coin is, those who are commiting a crime should not expect to be protected by the law

AudreyHepburn · 23-06-2011 04:22PM

I am all for protecting yourself and your property, but equally I don't believe in killing indiscriminatly either.

If the intruder does not actually threaten you with violence I see no reason to attack him.

If you are threatened I feel you should try to subdue the intruder without killing him/her if you can help it.

amacachi · 23-06-2011 04:23PM

ball wrote: »

If it was self defense, as in, he was protecting his own life by stabbing the burglar, then fair enough, he did the right thing.
If he stabbed him out rage when he saw the guy looking through his things, then it's murder.

I disagree as it happens and I'm sure some others do.

Ficheall · 23-06-2011 04:23PM

ball wrote: »

If it was self defense, as in, he was protecting his own life by stabbing the burglar, then fair enough, he did the right thing.

Suppose your son and his gf are staying in your house, and four masked men break into your home, ostensibly to rob some stuff.
What would you do in the situation? Just curious...

ball wrote: »

If he stabbed him out rage when he saw the guy looking through his things, then it's murder.

Not manslaughter?

ball wrote: »

Just because the burglar was committing a crime, doesn't mean the householder can kill him and walk away without any punishment.

You think it's fairer that the burglar walks away with some swag but no punishment? Because that's what would happen, more thank likely. Assuming the householder is lucky enough not to be killed.

mikom · 23-06-2011 04:24PM

Lustrum wrote: »

Has John Nally moved to England by any chance??

Padraig.
You know, the lad who looks like Tom baker............... http://www.doctorwho1.com/pics_pictures/doctor_who_tom_baker.jpg

mconigol · 23-06-2011 04:24PM

Well I don't know about you guys but I tend to walk around my house blindfolded randomly swinging a carving knife around when I'm bored so I could see how this might happen....accidentally of course!

amacachi · 23-06-2011 04:24PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If you are threatened I feel you should try to subdue the intruder without killing him/her if you can help it.

So simple isn't it?

Ficheall · 23-06-2011 04:25PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I am all for protecting yourself and your property, but equally I don't believe in killing indiscriminatly either.

It's not indiscriminate, ffs.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If you are threatened I feel you should try to subdue the intruder without killing him/her if you can help it.

How would you go about subduing four masked men who broke into your house then?

polyfusion · 23-06-2011 04:25PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If the intruder does not actually threaten you with violence I see no reason to attack him.

I can just imagine the Two Ronnies doing a sketch of this.

seanybiker · 23-06-2011 04:26PM

Would it not be manslaughter at most since he didnt stay in his house with intent for someone to break in and kill them.

he should get a blue peter badge and a cape.

amacachi · 23-06-2011 04:27PM

Ficheall wrote: »

Suppose your son and his gf are staying in your house, and four masked men break into your home, ostensibly to rob some stuff.
What would you do in the situation? Just curious...

Obviously what you do is you restrain them until the cops come without hurting them in any way. Very simple.

AudreyHepburn · 23-06-2011 04:27PM

amacachi wrote: »

So simple isn't it?

There is no need to be dismissive.

Ficheall wrote: »

It's not indiscriminate, ffs.

How would you go about subduing four masked men who broke into your house then?

We don't know what it was to be fair.

I was making the point that we don't, and shouldn't, automatically have the right to kill intruders.

If you have to subdue some-one why not knock them, shoot them in a limb etc. I don't believe you should kill unless it is a you or them situation.

amacachi · 23-06-2011 04:31PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

There is no need to be dismissive.

In this case yes, there is.

mconigol · 23-06-2011 04:32PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I am all for protecting yourself and your property, but equally I don't believe in killing indiscriminatly either.

If the intruder does not actually threaten you with violence I see no reason to attack him.

If you are threatened I feel you should try to subdue the intruder without killing him/her if you can help it.

So it's fine with you for somebody to walk in off the street and make off with all your stuff as long as they don't threaten you? What's your address by the way..?!

The act of someone breaking into your house alone is enough to indicate a potential threat.

amacachi · 23-06-2011 04:32PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If you have to subdue some-one why not knock them, shoot them in a limb etc. I don't believe you should kill unless it is a you or them situation.

Knock them? What does that mean? Shoot them in a limb so they bleed out? With the type of people who break into houses the only way you know you're safe is when they stop moving.

YFlyer · 23-06-2011 04:32PM

Ficheall wrote: »

Nope, he's still knocking around - and understandably constantly worried about retribution. The Gardai haven't even given him back his gun.
There's even a facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=134692763233785 , which, poorly written and justified though it may be, nevertheless carries a reasonable message.

That facebook page does not help his cause at all.

The King of Moo · 23-06-2011 04:33PM

polyfusion wrote: »

Unless any of us have been in that situation, I don't think we can imagine we'd know "when" is the time to stop using a knife when the welfare of your family or yourself are at risk.

That's true, though in some cases the intruder may be clearly incapacitated after a stab or two and if he died from that I don't think the homeowners should be prosecuted.
And our emotions would certainly get the better of us, so it's difficult to determine reasonable force, taking into account the mental state of the person being burgled at that moment. Someone certainly could get carried away and stab someone a number of times without thinking of the consequences, while others might know exactly what they're doing, especially after a number of strikes.
That's why in some ways I'd be more understanding of someone shooting an intruder than someone stabbing an intruder multiple times. An one-off shot, even if it's lethal, might be a more unconscious action than stabbing someone repeatedly (just want to point out that I'm not saying that's definitely what happened in this case). Stabbing is also more tactile and immediate than shooting someone which makes it less difficult to be aware of what you're doing and its effects than when you shoot someone in a moment panic or adrenaline.
I don't know, cases like this always make me conflicted. I understand defending your own home, but sometimes the reaction might be excessive, and the end result of very liberal legislation in favour of homeowners could be a dog-eat-dog world. Determining reasonable force while also accounting for the owner's mental state is the way to go, but it's very difficult to do.

AudreyHepburn · 23-06-2011 04:34PM

amacachi wrote: »

Knock them? What does that mean? Shoot them in a limb so they bleed out? With the type of people who break into houses the only way you know you're safe is when they stop moving.

Knock them out I meant, as I think you know.

I agree you stop them moving BUT that does not equal killing them in my book.

amacachi · 23-06-2011 04:35PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

That's true, though in some cases the intruder may be clearly incapacitated after a stab or two and if he died from that I don't think the homeowners should be prosecuted.

If you stab someone until they're incapacitated there's not many ways to do that that wouldn't involve them bleeding out in minutes or cutting their tendons etc.

amacachi · 23-06-2011 04:36PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Knock them out I meant, as I think you know.

I agree you stop them moving BUT that does not equal killing them in my book.

Again, it's very easy isn't it?

almighty1 · 23-06-2011 04:38PM

Doing too many self-defence classes? Do you realise how difficult it is to knock a person out?

Tar.Aldarion · 23-06-2011 04:39PM

wonder did he only die because they carried him away and thew him somewhere

ball · 23-06-2011 04:39PM

Ficheall wrote: »

Suppose your son and his gf are staying in your house, and four masked men break into your home, ostensibly to rob some stuff.
What would you do in the situation? Just curious...

Not manslaughter?

You think it's fairer that the burglar walks away with some swag but no punishment? Because that's what would happen, more thank likely. Assuming the householder is lucky enough not to be killed.

I'm not saying if someone gave me a knife, I wouldn't do the same thing. Nearly everyone would react in a similar way. But I wouldn't expect to get away with it myself. At the end of the day, he killed someone. Not an innocent person, but still a person.

And I never said the burglar should walk away with no punishment. He definitely should be put away.

AudreyHepburn · 23-06-2011 04:40PM

amacachi wrote: »

Again, it's very easy isn't it?

Again drop the dismissive tone. It doesn't make you look smart or make your opinions any more right.

hidinginthebush · 23-06-2011 04:41PM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

There is no need to be dismissive.

We don't know what it was to be fair.

I was making the point that we don't, and shouldn't, automatically have the right to kill intruders.

If you have to subdue some-one why not knock them, shoot them in a limb etc. I don't believe you should kill unless it is a you or them situation.

While I don't think we don't have the right to automatically kill intruders, you don't know what it will take to put someone down. I mean if there were 4 burglars in my house, if I decided to attack them, I wouldn't trip one of them up and try to hold him down thinking "that's that!". You'd have to work your way through all 4, making sure they won't get up, or, as may have happened in this situation, do harm to one of them so bad that they all decide to get the hell out of there.

As the home-owners, I'd imagine it would be an awful situation. What can you do? Do you sit there paralysed with fear and hope they take what they came for and leave, or do you try to take on 4 unknown intruders on your own? I honestly can't say what I would do. On the one hand it would be near suicidal to tackle 4 people on your own, but on the other, they've assumed they can take what's yours without repercussions. Do you harness the rage at the risk of possibly seriously injuring yourself, or do you swallow your pride and just wait it out?

I don't think you can say what you'll do until you find yourself in that situation, but I hope I never have to choose.

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 04:43PM

mconigol wrote: »

So it's fine with you for somebody to walk in off the street and make off with all your stuff as long as they don't threaten you?

of course not, but perhaps letting them now you are aware of them is the first course of action, I think most burglars would leg it

immediately throwing yourself into a confrontation or a knifefight is pretty dangerous for yourself too you know

TheReverend · 23-06-2011 04:44PM

They broke into his house, **** em, the dead **** got what he deserved

The Aussie · 23-06-2011 04:44PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

wonder did he only die because they carried him away and thew him somewhere

Only things i can think why they only dragged/carried him so far is.

a.He did not owe his scum bag mates any money.

b. To fat to bother dragging him any further.

d. A little bit of a and A little bit of b

Voodu Child · 23-06-2011 04:45PM

Four masked guys entering a small house doesnt sound like a burglary, they'd make too much noise and would be very visible entering and leaving. And 12am is very early for a burglary. Most burglars want to get in and out as quickly and quietly as possible.

The only reason so many people would enter the house was if it was a home invasion or if they expected/wanted a confrontation. There hasn't been any suggestion of a home invasion so i'd say it was gang/drug related.

Riskymove · 23-06-2011 04:45PM

hidinginthebush wrote: »

As the home-owners, I'd imagine it would be an awful situation. What can you do?

tbf I think we all picture helpless, average joe, homeowners and evil, tough guy burglars

it is not always like that, as shown here....for all we know the homeowner is a tough nut and the burglars a few kids

Four burglars enter, three burglars leave... Householder arrested for murder...

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