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Chivarly = ''benevolent sexism'

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    #122
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    I think the a good example of this is in fitness tests for jobs like Military or Police forces where women have lower standards. If they can't meet the same physical requirements that a man has to meet they obviously aren't capable of doing the job to the same level.

    I dont think they do have lower standards.

    Fitness? Police? HA HA HA HA. Guess you've never been to Dunkin Donuts.


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    #123
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    I dont think they do have lower standards.

    Fitness? Police? HA HA HA HA. Guess you've never been to Dunkin Donuts.

    Do we even have Dunkin Donuts in Ireland?

    Does anybody have any proof that there are lower standards for women in the Garda Physical Competency Test?

    FYI here is the test
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdxo84uK-Y


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    #124
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    parker kent wrote: »
    Do we even have Dunkin Donuts in Ireland?

    Does anybody have any proof that there are lower standards for women in the Garda Physical Competency Test?

    FYI here is the test
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdxo84uK-Y

    Its not exactly GI Joe/Jane now is it ?


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    #125
    bryaner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭bryaner


    Some people are just never happy..:rolleyes:


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    #126
    tbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    bryaner wrote: »
    Some people are just never happy..:rolleyes:

    Bryaner, I had to delete a post of yours earlier on. I'd suggest if you have a problem with a post you either report it or ignore it - if you continue to post like this, it's going to end up with a ban


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    #127
    bryaner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,181 ✭✭✭bryaner


    Fair enough no prob.


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    #128
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,271 ✭✭✭source


    The test is 3 laps in 3min for a male, 3.20min for a female, the push pull element male must achieve 25kg, females 22kg. Not a huge difference but it is there.

    Mile and a half run, for males in under 12.30min, females 13.30min.....(if I remember correctly)

    Same in military, it's the same test that males and females undergo, but with an altered time. The DF operate under a graded system, If I can remember back to my RDF days, males had to get at least a grade 3 and females a grade 4, cannot remember the timings exactly. But the test was a run with push ups and sit ups.


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    #129
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    I think the a good example of this is in fitness tests for jobs like Military or Police forces where women have lower standards. If they can't meet the same physical requirements that a man has to meet they obviously aren't capable of doing the job to the same level.
    But they may be better at the job in other areas...

    Just because they are "not equal" doesnt mean they are worse.. Thats what I was getting at.


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    #130
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    But they may be better at the job in other areas...

    Just because they are "not equal" doesnt mean they are worse.. Thats what I was getting at.

    A strong female presence is needed in the Gardaí. For example, if they were interviewing a female rape victim it would make sense to have a woman handle it than a man. The victim would most likely respond better to being approached by a woman in this case.


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    #131
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,878 ✭✭✭iptba


    Galvasean wrote: »
    A strong female presence is needed in the Gardaí. For example, if they were interviewing a female rape victim it would make sense to have a woman handle it than a man. The victim would most likely respond better to being approached by a woman in this case.
    It's a pity men don't have people they can trust/would be sympathetic to them e.g. if a man was a victim of domestic violence and wanted some help, male Gardai might not be particularly sympathetic (perhaps influenced by chivalry in society) ... but a female Garda might not be any more sympathetic either esp. if she talked to the woman also.


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    #132
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    iptba wrote: »
    It's a pity men don't have people they can trust/would be sympathetic to them e.g. if a man was a victim of domestic violence and wanted some help, male Gardai might not be particularly sympathetic (perhaps influenced by chivalry in society) ... but a female Garda might not be any more sympathetic either esp. if she talked to the woman also.

    Wow generalisation centre in that post.


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    #133
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Galvasean wrote: »
    A strong female presence is needed in the Gardaí. For example, if they were interviewing a female rape victim it would make sense to have a woman handle it than a man. The victim would most likely respond better to being approached by a woman in this case.
    Exactly, but you are hardly gonna stick a petite woman on riot duty, she wouldnt be able


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    #134
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Exactly, but you are hardly gonna stick a petite woman on riot duty, she wouldnt be able

    Or a petite man for that matter. As far as I remember, there used to be size requirements which had to be dropped because of some equality legislation law.


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    #135
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,878 ✭✭✭iptba


    Galvasean wrote: »
    As far as I remember, there used to be size requirements which had to be dropped because of some equality legislation law.
    Yes in the past:
    a man must be at least 5'9" to join the Gardaí, women must measure 5'5".

    ref: http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/1201/garda.html
    but now
    The requirement to be of a specific height has been removed and replaced with a physical competency test.

    ref:
    http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=333&Lang=1&PersistList=1&PersistPage=213

    Actually, it seems a bit odd if having different height thresholds for men and women would be considered breaking equality laws but having different thresholds on the physical competency test(s) isn't [breaking similar laws].


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    #136
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    iptba wrote: »
    Actually, it seems a bit odd if having different height thresholds for men and women would be considered breaking equality laws but having different thresholds on the physical competency test(s) isn't [breaking similar laws].

    You could probably correlate the physical competency tests to the difference in world records between men and women.

    Interestingly when I worked as a lifeguard there was no difference, every lifeguard was required male or female, to reach a certain level of speed when swimming.


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    #137
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,878 ✭✭✭iptba


    Stheno wrote: »
    iptba wrote:
    Actually, it seems a bit odd if having different height thresholds for men and women would be considered breaking equality laws but having different thresholds on the physical competency test(s) isn't [breaking similar laws].

    You could probably correlate the physical competency tests to the difference in world records between men and women.
    You could probably do the same for height differences also (or rate them on percentiles of the male and female populations which would be a similar sort of point).
    Stheno wrote: »
    Interestingly when I worked as a lifeguard there was no difference, every lifeguard was required male or female, to reach a certain level of speed when swimming.
    Yes, interesting how there are lower qualifications in some areas but not others. Are there areas where there are lower qualifications for men?


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    #138
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    iptba wrote: »
    Yes, interesting how there are lower qualifications in some areas but not others. Are there areas where there are lower qualifications for men?

    There has been some suggestions for the Leaving Cert.

    It shouldn't be viewed as a game where men and women keep score or an us against them situation. I think we should do everything possible to have a better society. Sometimes that means unequal treatment for some, but a better society in the long term. I view it the same way as I view access to third level, we need to get a fairer mixture of society in everything. Long term it will be better.


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    #139
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    I hold doors open for men and women.
    Am i sexist? :eek:


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    #140
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    You are the devil herself!


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    #141
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    I am :D

    Sexisim went out window in Ireland when men here found out it was ok to go dutch :p
    Damn :mad:


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    #142
    Wolflikeme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭Wolflikeme


    Stheno wrote: »
    I've seen women on building sites, usually engineers and h and s inspectors. Know a couple of female electricians as well, but no brickies tbf

    I've seen tons of women on building sites in Canada. And NOT ONE of them does any heavy work. They stand and direct traffic around road works etc and that's it. It's well known fact there and shockingly (not really), they're OK with not doing the heavy work.


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    #143
    Wolflikeme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭Wolflikeme


    opinion guy wrote: »
    Its not exactly GI Joe/Jane now is it ?

    It's not even the GI Joe rip off - Action Force.


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    #144
    caseyann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Wolflikeme wrote: »
    I've seen tons of women on building sites in Canada. And NOT ONE of them does any heavy work. They stand and direct traffic around road works etc and that's it. It's well known fact there and shockingly (not really), they're OK with not doing the heavy work.


    I agree,i hate heavy work.I have done it but never felt sexist when someone helped me.And women are not built like men.Well most women arent built like men,but then again some women could out lift and beat a mans ass.:D

    But if i wouldnt be caught dead on a building site unless was office work in a suit as an over seer etc..:p


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    #145
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,878 ✭✭✭iptba


    parker kent wrote: »
    iptba wrote:
    Galvasean wrote:
    A strong female presence is needed in the Gardaí. For example, if they were interviewing a female rape victim it would make sense to have a woman handle it than a man. The victim would most likely respond better to being approached by a woman in this case.
    It's a pity men don't have people they can trust/would be sympathetic to them e.g. if a man was a victim of domestic violence and wanted some help, male Gardai might not be particularly sympathetic (perhaps influenced by chivalry in society) ... but a female Garda might not be any more sympathetic either esp. if she talked to the woman also.
    Wow generalisation centre in that post.
    Which part is "generalisation centre"? That male victims of domestic violence may not feel as sure of the same support from male gardai as female victims of rape might feel from female gardai? Or that female gardai may not be different from their male colleagues in how they deal with male victims of domestic violence?


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    #146
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    iptba wrote: »
    Which part is "generalisation centre"? That male victims of domestic violence may not feel as sure of the same support from male gardai as female victims of rape might feel from female gardai? Or that female gardai may not be different from their male colleagues in how they deal with male victims of domestic violence?

    The idea that a male garda would not be sympathetic to a male attacked by a woman is a generalisation. It is playing up the "tough man" generalisation and the generalisation that male victims are not taken seriously. You are generalising for all gardai. The reality is that some men will be sympathetic to male victims, others will not. Some men will be sympathetic towards female victims, some will not. Some women will be sympathetic towards female victims, some will not. Some women will be sympathetic towards male victims, some will not.


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    #147
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,878 ✭✭✭iptba


    parker kent wrote: »
    The idea that a male garda would not be sympathetic to a male attacked by a woman is a generalisation. It is playing up the "tough man" generalisation and the generalisation that male victims are not taken seriously. You are generalising for all gardai. The reality is that some men will be sympathetic to male victims, others will not. Some men will be sympathetic towards female victims, some will not. Some women will be sympathetic towards female victims, some will not. Some women will be sympathetic towards male victims, some will not.
    I know you like to criticise and challenge me whenever you can but it all sounds a bit air-fairy to justify "generalisation central" (esp. as the moderators had just said we weren't supposed to use generalisations so you may have been trying to get me in trouble with the mods, or that could have been the effect). I didn't say no male gardai would be sympathetic. And it was in the context of somebody else saying female gardai were needed to help female victims.

    Numbers do matter - your "some male/female will ... , some male/female will not ..." rhetoric might have impressed your English teacher but it misses an important point: things do not have to be all or nothing to be of relevance. If a higher percentage of male victims than female victims felt they did not get a good service, that would be interesting - indeed if the percentages were reversed, the word "sexism" (or even "institutional sexism"?) would probably be used by some.

    And groups like Amen give the impression that there may be a problem for male victims. But in your world, it seems this should not be mentioned because that's a "generalisation" and doesn't apply to every case. I will keep an eye out to see how many times you use "generalisation central" if somebody says women are treated worse on average in a particular area.

    And in my short post that nobody else commented on, I tied all this to the thread as I suggested attitudes of some male gardai to male domestic violence victims may be influenced with chivalrous attitudes. I think I should be entitled to say that chivalrous attitudes could influence some men in more aspects of how they behave than opening doors, holding coats, etc - it'll be a sad day if it ever got to the stage that one couldn't express such thoughts.


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    #148
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Stheno wrote: »
    Conversely you could look at professions like HR, Nursing and teaching which are dominated by women and ask why 50% of those aren't men? Are they lacking something in that they are not at that level in those workforces?
    In HR, most of the men are high up in the ranks - don't usually see "new" HR people. Whilst in hospital, I saw a few male nurses. As for teaching, the government used to have (and may still have) incentives to get male teachers, to get male role models into the schools.


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    #149
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    the_syco wrote: »
    In HR, most of the men are high up in the ranks - don't usually see "new" HR people.

    I thought only demonspawn work in HR never mind men or women:rolleyes:


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    #150
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Morgase wrote: »
    Expecting (not even asking but expecting) a man to cut the lawn for you because you can't be bothered to lift a hand is just lazy.


    I never said anything about expecting? I was mentioning an example used by someone earlier, as I outlined in my original post and mentioned it in a light hearted way which I thought was clear. My point was that as a woman I personally feel flattered and thankful when offered help (be it from a male or female), and so disagree with the title of the thread...which was set to be discussed...so please dont read things into what i said which weren't there!


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    #151
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    I feel uncomfortable with things like men holding doors open for me, paying for stuff or offering me their seat just because I'm female. I just don't understand the custom - why is it done? I know that men do it to be nice - I just don't get why you'd do it for women and not for men? (obviously this doesn't include basic manners like giving up your seat for a pregnant woman - both men and women should do that).

    I'm getting married next year. My parents died and because of this, my uncle wants to give my fiance 'the talk' ('you hurt her, you die' kind of thing) on the morning of the wedding because of some pact he made with my Dad when they were teenagers! I find it very odd. I'll probably allow it because I know he wants to do it out of respect for his brother, but I can't help feeling really offended and insulted at the idea that I need some male protection from the one person I trust most, particularly because there will be no such talk for my brother when he weds.

    However, most women I know seem to approve of these customs, so maybe it's just me


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