Chivarly = ''benevolent sexism'

HellFireClub

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I feel uncomfortable with things like men holding doors open for me, paying for stuff or offering me their seat just because I'm female. I just don't understand the custom - why is it done? I know that men do it to be nice - I just don't get why you'd do it for women and not for men? (obviously this doesn't include basic manners like giving up your seat for a pregnant woman - both men and women should do that).

I'm getting married next year. My parents died and because of this, my uncle wants to give my fiance 'the talk' ('you hurt her, you die' kind of thing) on the morning of the wedding because of some pact he made with my Dad when they were teenagers! I find it very odd. I'll probably allow it because I know he wants to do it out of respect for his brother, but I can't help feeling really offended and insulted at the idea that I need some male protection from the one person I trust most, particularly because there will be no such talk for my brother when he weds.

However, most women I know seem to approve of these customs, so maybe it's just me

Hmmm that's an interesting one. I've never actually heard of "that talk" being done in Ireland, I think it was on Meet The Fockers or something like that but it's certainly not something that I've seen or heard of being done at any Irish wedding and if someone tried to give me that particular sermon before a wedding, there would be uproar out of me.

You've hit the nail on the head, there, the idea that you somehow need a warning hanging over the head of someone you trust the most, this is implying that there is or could possibly be something wrong with your partner or your relationship and I wouldn't be having a bar of it I tell ya... If I was on the receiving end of that kind of a rediculous sermon, the person would be asked not to attend the wedding, I wouldn't give a fúck, someone who thinks that you need protecting from the person you are marrying, has no business being at your wedding.

Logical Fallacy

I hate the talk. A "friend" of my girlfriends tried to give me the talk when we started going out....he'd "hurt" me if i messed her around.

I asked him two questions...."Who else are you gonna get to hurt me?...because you'll need a lot more than just you" and "where was this talk when your best mate was treating her like **** and you were turning a blind eye?"

After that i told him to **** off and haven't spoken to him since.

It's always seems so ****ing misplaced.

It always gets the same reaction from me as people saying "you're a lucky man"....really? am I? Luck has **** all to do with it mate.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Entirely up to you LeeHoffmann but depending on your Uncle's approach that could back-fire a bit. A lot of lads would probably take offense to a talk like that, particularly on the morning of the day they are marrying the woman they love, the woman they want to spend the rest of their life with.

Just something to ponder over.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I hate the talk. A "friend" of my girlfriends tried to give me the talk when we started going out....he'd "hurt" me if i messed her around.

I asked him two questions...."Who else are you gonna get to hurt me?...because you'll need a lot more than just you" and "where was this talk when your best mate was treating her like **** and you were turning a blind eye?"

After that i told him to **** off and haven't spoken to him since.

It's always seems so ****ing misplaced.

It always gets the same reaction from me as people saying "you're a lucky man"....really? am I? Luck has **** all to do with it mate.

Oh man, I really hate when I hear of things like that, that guy seems like a right tool.

Logical Fallacy

Leandro Screeching Flower wrote: »

Oh man, I really hate when I hear of things like that, that guy seems like a right tool.

Absolutely man, i seriously wouldn't have minded if it wasn't for the fact that he turned a blind eye to his best mate being a total **** to her. I'd have just smiled and laughed it off if it wasn't for the sheer hypocrisy of what he was saying to me.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Absolutely man, i seriously wouldn't have minded if it wasn't for the fact that he turned a blind eye to his best mate being a total **** to her. I'd have just smiled and laughed it off if it wasn't for the sheer hypocrisy of what he was saying to me.

I reckon he was just trying to act the big man. And maybe, putting it a little bluntly, he was a little jealous of you and wanted to get into her pants.

I've seen that a bit with some guys, "If I can't have her, no-one can".

Reminds me recently when I was out with a female cousin and some of my friends. One of the lads asked would I be okay if he hooked up with my cousin. I sort of looked at him confused and just replied that she was 23 and her dealings with the opposite sex was completely her business and not mine at all.

LeeHoffmann

Entirely up to you LeeHoffmann but depending on your Uncle's approach that could back-fire a bit. A lot of lads would probably take offense to a talk like that, particularly on the morning of the day they are marrying the woman they love, the woman they want to spend the rest of their life with.

Just something to ponder over.

I hear ya. Nice to see somebody else thinks this is mad. My fiance feels a bit weird about getting the talk from my uncle but wouldn't have minded getting it from my Dad! It seems to question my judgement. I trust this person more than anyone else; nobody has any reason to doubt him - in fact, my Dad said of him to a friend (a few days before his death) that he ''couldn't wish for a better man for his daughter''. I know my uncle's grieving for my Dad and his motivation here is to do his duty to my Dad, but neither of us want it. I don't want to upset my uncle - I know he means it nicely, but it kind of goes against a lot of what I stand for. It's that whole chivalry idea though - my uncle gave the talk to his son-in-law on his daughter's wedding day too. Women don't need to be mollycoddled. It seems to me though that men are doing these things to be nice, and many women like it - why though?!

I asked him two questions...."Who else are you gonna get to hurt me?...because you'll need a lot more than just you" and "where was this talk when your best mate was treating her like **** and you were turning a blind eye?"

sounds like he had no real concerns, just wanted to play the hard man. I like your response!

edit: I see Supersonic beat me to it re: playing the tough guy.

One of the lads asked would I be okay if he hooked up with my cousin. I sort of looked at him confused and just replied that she was 23 and her dealings with the opposite sex was completely her business and not mine at all

. hahahahahahahaha love it! You should have told him he could only date her on condition that you tag along to supervise! wait - maybe he asked in case it was violating that bro code thing - i.e. you can't date another guy's ex or family?

discus

Leandro Screeching Flower wrote: »

Oh man, I really hate when I hear of things like that, that guy seems like a right tool.

Personally, if I was to give the father-in-law "talk" like that, it would only be to wish him the best of luck with the rest of his life.

This "the talk" seems like a monkey see, monkey do type thing. The only people I have heard give this type of talk have been utter idiots (and terrible boyfriends/partners to boot)

Snowie

So let me get this straight


Im walking out of a door and theres a woman 8 feet behinde me laydon with shopping bags huffing and puffing you can see the white in her finger due to the weight

I could hold the door for her and maybe offer to help

but NOOO Im not aloud to...

I let go of the door just as a smile on her face appears... and slam the door in her face...


well apprently its sexist to help a woman out when shes cleerly having a hard time ...


As my old man said : feminists are there for every one else's entertainment

LeeHoffmann

That would come under the basic good manners category, at least for me. If anybody (man, woman or child) is laden with bags huffing and puffing and struggling to get through a door, it's only decent to hold it open for them. I think the benevolent sexism thing is targeting the unnecessary kindnesses like holding doors open for women who have no bags and can open it themselves without any difficulty

gargleblaster

As for me I hold the door open for anyone regardless of gender, age, or ability, if they are close enough to me for me to wait. It's just good manners, that's how I see it. A kindness - just a nice thing to do.

Helping people for no particular or special reason is a good thing, I think. If they take offense that's their issue to work through.

HellFireClub

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

I know he means it nicely, but it kind of goes against a lot of what I stand for. It's that whole chivalry idea though - my uncle gave the talk to his son-in-law on his daughter's wedding day too. Women don't need to be mollycoddled.

This isn't an act of chivarly, it's an act of deep interference in the relationship of two people that many people would take serious exception to. It's a tradition, (if it is even that), that I would describe as being indiciative of someone who has tendencies to deeply interfere in the personal lives of other people. I would be highly offended if someone tried to have this "talk" with me, planning a marriage I imagine is stressful enough without these kind of completely useless interjections from those involved at family level. If you have agreed to get married, then there is obviously a working assumption in place that you will be faithful to each other. That may not come to be the case but I doubt any "talks" with prevent that from happening if it is going to happen and women are every bit as capable of it as men these days.

I understand that your uncle is going through a process of grieving, but that needs to be managed separately from your wedding plans I think.

iptba

the_syco wrote: »

As for teaching, the government used to have (and may still have) incentives to get male teachers, to get male role models into the schools.

What incentives are there? All I can recall/am aware of was an advertising campaign/similar, which doesn't count in my book as an incentive.

Galvasean

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I hate the talk. A "friend" of my girlfriends tried to give me the talk when we started going out....he'd "hurt" me if i messed her around.

I asked him two questions...."Who else are you gonna get to hurt me?...because you'll need a lot more than just you" and "where was this talk when your best mate was treating her like **** and you were turning a blind eye?"

After that i told him to **** off and haven't spoken to him since.

It's always seems so ****ing misplaced.

It always gets the same reaction from me as people saying "you're a lucky man"....really? am I? Luck has **** all to do with it mate.

Haha, I recall one time I scored a girl on a night out and one of her (male) friends insisted that if I ever messed her about he would make me pay. I responded something along the lines of, "I have no intention of doing so, but if you wanna go..." (a drunken boast [I'm actually a pussy cat], but it seemed to scare him off). Ironically I called her the next day as promised and she completely blanked me. I wonder if I tracked that guy down would he be willing to make her pay for messing me about? :pac:

LeeHoffmann

This isn't an act of chivarly, it's an act of deep interference in the relationship of two people that many people would take serious exception to. It's a tradition, (if it is even that), that I would describe as being indiciative of someone who has tendencies to deeply interfere in the personal lives of other people.

You couldn't be more wrong in this particular case. My uncle's a very shy, quiet type with a 'live and let live' philosophy. There is a view in the family that women are vulnerable and need the protection of their male relatives. Clearly it's an act of chivalry if 'the talk' is given only by men to the partners of daughters and not to the partners of sons

source

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Clearly it's an act of chivalry if 'the talk' is given only by men to the partners of daughters and not to the partners of sons

Really hope you're being sarcastic here, but if not, then that is clap trap.

It is offensive to the woman that the "men" feel she cannot choose a man who will treat her right. I've received the talk once or twice, and I made this point exact point. The guy receiving this kind of talk does not appreciate it and it makes a mockery of the woman.

um7y1h83ge06nx

It depends on what 'the talk' is.

If it was my wedding day:

If 'the talk' was a nice welcome to the family, wishing you happy and long lives together it would be a very nice gesture. Hell, even have a whiskey or a brandy together.

If 'the talk' was a 'you hurt her, you die' type talk, it would be a different story.

Depends on the groom I guess.

source

Leandro Screeching Flower wrote: »

It depends on what 'the talk' is.

If it was my wedding day:

If 'the talk' was a nice welcome to the family, wishing you happy and long lives together it would be a very nice gesture. Hell, even have a whiskey or a brandy together.

If 'the talk' was a 'you hurt her, you die' type talk, it would be a different story.

Depends on the groom I guess.

The latter is the talk we're discussing. Which is why everyone is giving out about it.

LeeHoffmann

It is offensive to the woman that the men [cut the " this is my family we're talking about] feel she cannot choose a man who will treat her right. I've received the talk once or twice, and I made this point exact point. The guy receiving this kind of talk does not appreciate it and it makes a mockery of the woman.

foinse, I agree. However I know the men very well here and I know they only mean it well. They aren't chauvinistic and are a lot less opinionated/prone to meddling than most of the women in the family. The women in their families (wives, daughters) are strong, intelligent and outspoken, but the men in the family feel like it's their duty to protect them. Hence the talk to male partners of their children but not female partners. They do it out of a sense of obligation and honour. That seems to be what the notion of 'chivalry' is all about.

Super sonic, it's meant as a 'friendly warning' - I think the 'you hurt her, you die' thing is generally followed by a drink together and a pat on the back

source

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

foinse, I agree. However I know the men very well here and I know they only mean it well. They aren't chauvinistic and are a lot less opinionated/prone to meddling than most of the women in the family. The women in their families (wives, daughters) are strong, intelligent and outspoken, but the men in the family feel like it's their duty to protect them. Hence the talk to male partners of their children but not female partners. They do it out of a sense of obligation and honour. That seems to be what the notion of 'chivalry' is all about.

I would disagree Lee, I would say that it is disrespectful to both the woman and man.

Real chivalry would be sorting the situation out if the man was treating the woman like crap. The talk as I've said is disrespectful to the couple and only serves to make the guy giving the talk appear as a bully and not someone whose family you'd want to join.

Being a bully no matter what your intentions are, is not chivalrous, Chivalry is the realm of gentlemen, who would not make threats.

raveni

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

That would come under the basic good manners category, at least for me. If anybody (man, woman or child) is laden with bags huffing and puffing and struggling to get through a door, it's only decent to hold it open for them. I think the benevolent sexism thing is targeting the unnecessary kindnesses like holding doors open for women who have no bags and can open it themselves without any difficulty

Unless the guy is doing it in a cynical or "I don't think you're strong enough to open the door on your own haw haw" way I just don't see it as being anything other than good manners, which really in this day and age shouldn't be discouraged.

gargleblaster wrote: »

As for me I hold the door open for anyone regardless of gender, age, or ability, if they are close enough to me for me to wait. It's just good manners, that's how I see it. A kindness - just a nice thing to do.

Helping people for no particular or special reason is a good thing, I think. If they take offense that's their issue to work through.

Exactly how I see it.

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

You couldn't be more wrong in this particular case. My uncle's a very shy, quiet type with a 'live and let live' philosophy. There is a view in the family that women are vulnerable and need the protection of their male relatives. Clearly it's an act of chivalry if 'the talk' is given only by men to the partners of daughters and not to the partners of sons

It might be his view that it's chivalrous but it really isn't imo, just because he's a man and he's doing something he thinks is good for a woman doesn't mean it's chivalrous. I think in his view he has to do it because it's tradition. Many people have difficulties letting go of tradition no matter how outdated and unecessary it is, and in your Uncle's case it seems that he feel's it's his obligation to the family and particularly to his brother to do it.

The word chivalry is thrown around too much, a lot of it is just basic manners, things like holding out a chair or helping a woman put her coat on I just find old fashioned though, I wouldn't be offended (as I said unless it was done in a cynical/mean spirited way) I'd just a little bit exasperated.

LeeHoffmann

I would disagree Lee, I would say that it is disrespectful to both the woman and man.

I agree with you, but I know they see it as chivalrous and not disrespectful at all

foinse, I agree. However...the men in the family feel like it's their duty to protect them...out of a sense of obligation and honour

It might be his view that it's chivalrous but it really isn't imo, just because he's a man and he's doing something he thinks is good for a woman doesn't mean it's chivalrous.

exactly!!! That's what's at the heart of this 'benevolent sexism' thing I think!

Unless the guy is doing it in a cynical or "I don't think you're strong enough to open the door on your own haw haw" way I just don't see it as being anything other than good manners, which really in this day and age shouldn't be discouraged

agree about being mannerly, but why would you be more mannerly to women than to men?

raveni

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

agree about being mannerly, but why would you be more mannerly to women than to men?

I do think it's unecessary though, it's a hangover from an age where women where treated as if they were were as fragile as children.

Count Duckula

foinse wrote: »

I would disagree Lee, I would say that it is disrespectful to both the woman and man.

Real chivalry would be sorting the situation out if the man was treating the woman like crap. The talk as I've said is disrespectful to the couple and only serves to make the guy giving the talk appear as a bully and not someone whose family you'd want to join.

Being a bully no matter what your intentions are, is not chivalrous, Chivalry is the realm of gentlemen, who would not make threats.

"Real chivalry"? That's precisely what this thread is about. "Sorting the situation out if the man was treating the woman like crap" is not real chivalry, it is still - to a great extent - sexism. You are assuming that the woman is incapable of sorting things out herself, and are therefore stepping as a male protector on her behalf.

Yes, that might be less downright rude than simply accosting the groom or boyfriend and threatening them, but it's no less interfering - simply because of the assumption that the weak woman needs a big strong man to come to her rescue.

And to claim something is the realm of the gentleman is a bit of a misnomer, too. I understand you're trying to therefore paint chivalry as something noble and to aspire to - who wouldn't want to be landed gentry, after all! - but gender dominance, enforced obedience, arrogance, cruelty and perpetuating the myth of women as the weaker sex are all realms of the "gentleman", too.

busyliving

Horseshít...The whole article Horseshít

LeeHoffmann

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HellFireClub

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

You couldn't be more wrong in this particular case. My uncle's a very shy, quiet type with a 'live and let live' philosophy. There is a view in the family that women are vulnerable and need the protection of their male relatives. Clearly it's an act of chivalry if 'the talk' is given only by men to the partners of daughters and not to the partners of sons

Your husband will be your closest male relative after your marriage ceremony, so this is who is your protector ought to be in the first instance, not your uncle.

Count Duckula

Why does she need a male protector at all? I imagine she's looking for a husband, not a bodyguard.

raveni

HellFireClub wrote: »

Your husband will be your closest male relative after your marriage ceremony, so this is who is your protector ought to be in the first instance, not your uncle.

I don't think many women would view their husband as their "protector".

LeeHoffmann

I imagine she's looking for a husband, not a bodyguard.

Count Duckula and raveni answered for me. Women don't need 'protectors' - unless they're being attacked. In that case I'd hope anybody close to me would come to my defence, as I would if it were the other way round. However that doesn't really make any of us 'protectors' as such