Female gardai pose as prostitutes

paulosham · 14-06-2011 10:14PM

Get into the Veh...gina

philologos · 14-06-2011 10:19PM

Badgermonkey wrote: »

The recent 'Turn Off the Red Light' radio campaign supported by Ruhama, ICTU Women, Immigrant Council of Ireland etc. was incredibly disingenuous in claiming all prostitution in Ireland was as a consequence of sex-trafficking.

Why did they propagate such a dubious claim?

Here's the statistics that they claim to use.

If you think they are dubious I'm sure you can contact them for citations.

As for Ruhama, ICTU Women, and the Immigrant Council of Ireland, at least they are actually doing something to counteract the shameful abuse that occurs to prostitutes (many involved against their will) rather than pretending it isn't a problem.

enfant terrible · 14-06-2011 10:24PM

philologos wrote: »

Claiming it is non-existent despite the amount of research done and discovered cases such as this one would be mere confirmation bias as far as I can see it.

What research, how many prosecutions has there been in Ireland for sex trafficking?

philologos · 14-06-2011 10:26PM

I don't know exactly how many, but there have been quite a few cases of it at this point if you take a search for it. To claim that it isn't a problem is a lie, it's a problem right across Europe.

enfant terrible · 14-06-2011 10:29PM

philologos wrote: »

Here's the statistics that they claim to use.

If you think they are dubious I'm sure you can contact them for citations.

As for Ruhama, ICTU Women, and the Immigrant Council of Ireland, at least they are actually doing something to counteract the shameful abuse that occurs to prostitutes (many involved against their will) rather than pretending it isn't a problem.

I sure any impartial group throwing statistics around like they do on that page would have links to all the studies there too.

Badgermonkey · 14-06-2011 10:40PM

philologos wrote: »

Here's the statistics that they claim to use.

If you think they are dubious I'm sure you can contact them for citations.

Ah, hang on now.

You linked to what is, in essence, a mantra.

Perhaps you did not hear the ad in question. It clearly claimed all prostitution in Ireland was as a consequence of sex-trafficking.

While I would wholeheartedly agree that shining a light on sex-trafficking is a more than admirable endeavour, to do so in a disingenuous manner reflects poorly on the messenger and sullies the credibility of the message.

pablomakaveli · 14-06-2011 10:41PM

philologos wrote: »

It's impossible to tell if they haven't. Actually, it is by and large impossible to tell consent either. Largely as I would see it prostitution is the result of some coercion. Either physical coercion or financial coercion. I'm highly doubtful that if other career paths were equally as open to people that they would choose it.

As for trafficking figures they are very difficult to tell because of the reluctance of people to come forward. What figures we do have are probably a tiny representation of the whole.

That applies both to male and female prostitutes. I think Ruhama's aims are nothing short of admirable, and it's the right outlook to deal with any social issue that faces our society to treat people with respect and dignity is hugely important.

Actually it's easy. Go out and ask the prostitutes themselves. Of course that never seems to happen Instead we have Ruhama speaking on their behalf. Thoug i'm sure if a prostitute did say she'd chosen to enter prostitution of her own free will we'd be told that she was somehow coerced.

Fiancial coercion. Give me a break. I hate my job but i cant give it up because i need the money. Should i sue my employer for "financial coercion"? I've no doubt some women do it for the money but they could make more money in a few hours then some do in a week. Of course people will see that and decide to do it. But i suppose because it involves sex it's immoral and wrong just like it says in a fairy tale book.

Maybe trafficking figures are low because there aren't as many women being trafficked as we're led to believe by the likes of Ruhama.

So Ruhama want to treat people with respect and dignity. Would fighting to have it legalized and thus ensuring that all prostitutes are working in a safe environment where they can feel safe and secure be a good way of doing that?

Dr.Dre · 14-06-2011 10:45PM

Prostitutes are Baaaad.Mmmkay?

Laisurg · 14-06-2011 10:54PM

To be honest i think going after prostitution is one of those things that just wont work, if there's blokes out there that are willing to have sex with some bird who more than likely has an STI or two then i don't think the guards will stop him.

philologos · 14-06-2011 10:56PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Fiancial coercion. Give me a break. I hate my job but i cant give it up because i need the money. Should i sue my employer for "financial coercion"? I've no doubt some women do it for the money but they could make more money in a few hours then some do in a week. Of course people will see that and decide to do it. But i suppose because it involves sex it's immoral and wrong just like it says in a fairy tale book.

Not really. I don't believe sex in and of itself is wrong or immoral. That's another topic anyway. In fact in many ways it is a great thing, "fairytale book" or no "fairytale book".

I do believe that prostitution under financial coercion is more akin to rape. Sex under coercion. I draw the line there as personally I would see it as an abusive. Sexuality in human nature is something that is so closely connected to human emotion and is more likely to cause prolonged damage on a psychological level than a 9 - 5 job no matter how much you hate it.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Maybe trafficking figures are low because there aren't as many women being trafficked as we're led to believe by the likes of Ruhama.

I think it's more probable that it is because that it is something that is very difficult for people to come forward about like other forms of sexual abuse.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

So Ruhama want to treat people with respect and dignity. Would fighting to have it legalized and thus ensuring that all prostitutes are working in a safe environment where they can feel safe and secure be a good way of doing that?

I don't believe this happens in most cases where it has been legalised. As I've mentioned already in this thread there have been issues in the Netherlands with criminality. When this was raised a number of posters shrugged it off as personal prejudice on the mayors part without giving any reason for this position.

JonathanAnon · 14-06-2011 11:06PM

I think Conor Pope should be on this, as a consumer affairs issue.. The product should be clearly labelled as being a guard..

pablomakaveli · 14-06-2011 11:11PM

philologos wrote: »

Not really. I don't believe sex in and of itself is wrong or immoral. That's another topic anyway. In fact in many ways it is a great thing, "fairytale book" or no "fairytale book".

I do believe that prostitution under financial coercion is more akin to rape. Sex under coercion. I draw the line there as personally I would see it as an abusive. Sexuality in human nature is something that is so closely connected to human emotion and is more likely to cause prolonged damage on a psychological level than a 9 - 5 job no matter how much you hate it.

Except that it isn't rape. Rape is sex without consent. I someone pays someone to let them have sex with them the person who is receiving the money gives there consent to have sex. That isn't rape. Consent has been given even if money has changed hands.

I think it's more probable that it is because that it is something that is very difficult for people to come forward about like other forms of sexual abuse.

Or maybe there isn't as many people that have been trafficked as you might think. If we had as many trafficked people being brought into the country as Ruhama wants us to believe we'd surely see far more cases simply due to the larger number. But we're not.

I don't believe this happens in most cases where it has been legalised. As I've mentioned already in this thread there have been issues in the Netherlands with criminality. When this was raised a number of posters shrugged it off as personal prejudice on the mayors part without giving any reason for this position.

And theres the far worse dangers when it's illegal. Remember all the girls killed in the Ipswich murders were all prostitutes. They were vulnerable because they aren't protected by law and so have no protection. Even the Womens institute in England support legalizing brothels.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article2821186.ece

philologos · 14-06-2011 11:14PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Except that it isn't rape. Rape is sex without consent. I someone pays someone to let them have sex with them the person who is receiving the money gives there consent to have sex. That isn't rape. Consent has been given even if money has changed hands.

Coercion != consent as far as I would see it.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Or maybe there isn't as many people that have been trafficked as you might think. If we had as many trafficked people being brought into the country as Ruhama wants us to believe we'd surely see far more cases simply due to the larger number. But we're not.

Again, given what we know of the case in Britain and across Europe I'm doubting this heavily.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

And theres the far worse dangers when it's illegal. Remember all the girls killed in the Ipswich murders were all prostitutes. They were vulnerable because they aren't protected by law and so have no protection. Even the Womens institute in England support legalizing brothels.

Again, I'm not seeing how this is the case. Illegality in and of itself isn't what I'm discussing. I'm also discussing an effective police strategy which clearly and significantly decreases the levels of sex trafficking. This has happened in Sweden over the past decade. I.E - something that actually works and something that actually deals with the problem which is what our current laws and as far as I'm concerned complete legalisation don't do.

enfant terrible · 14-06-2011 11:19PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

And theres the far worse dangers when it's illegal. Remember all the girls killed in the Ipswich murders were all prostitutes. They were vulnerable because they aren't protected by law and so have no protection. Even the Womens institute in England support legalizing brothels.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article2821186.ece

I think if it was proved beyond a doubt these women would be safer if prostitution was legalized, some people just will never accept it on moral grounds.

I think its more a moral issue with people in Ireland than a women safety issue.

R P McMurphy · 14-06-2011 11:36PM

I was one of the people that pulled up and this super hot garda chick leaned in the window and when she saw me she ended up paying me for sex

pablomakaveli · 14-06-2011 11:40PM

philologos wrote: »

Coercion != consent as far as I would see it.

Accepting money to do something is not coercion. No one is forced to take the money and do it. They choos to take the money and they choose to do what they are being paid for. Just because you see doing it for money as coercion does not make it so.

Again, given what we know of the case in Britain and across Europe I'm doubting this heavily.

And we're not denying there is trafficking. But every prostitute in ireland is not trafficked. But ruhama want to make us believe that all prostitutes are trafficked and thus that the scale of trafficking if far higher than it is in reality.

Again, I'm not seeing how this is the case. Illegality in and of itself isn't what I'm discussing. I'm also discussing an effective police strategy which clearly and significantly decreases the levels of sex trafficking. This has happened in Sweden over the past decade. I.E - something that actually works and something that actually deals with the problem which is what our current laws and as far as I'm concerned complete legalisation don't do.

If we had a situation where sex workers could work in a regulated industry then we could have police efforts focused on the traffickers without wasting time on prostitutes who havent been trafficked.

Just look at this recent operation in Limerick.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/limerick_gardai_clamp_down_on_illegal_brothels_1_2736915

The women who have been caught are not believed to have been trafficked or coerced. Now in a situation where those women could work legally in a regulated brothel the Gards wouldn't need to worry about them but could spend more time focusing o trafficked prostitutes who wouldn't be working within the legal system.

Badgermonkey · 14-06-2011 11:40PM

philologos wrote: »

I'm also discussing an effective police strategy which clearly and significantly decreases the levels of sex trafficking. This has happened in Sweden over the past decade.

Opinion, has not been proven to be so.

In 2008 Kajsa Wahlberg, of the human trafficking unit at Sweden's national police board, conceded that accurate statistics are hard to obtain, but estimated that the number of prostitutes in Sweden dropped 40% from 2,500 in 1998 to 1,500 in 2003. However by 2010 she had conceded that the policy had failed, and that issues around prostitution were increasing

Socialstyrelsen (National Board of Health and Welfare)
Monitoring and evaluation of the law was delegated to the Socialstyrelsen, which has produced three reports (2000, 2004, 2007). These acknowledged the difficulties in evaluating the situation and provided no hard evidence that the law had in any way achieved its objectives. The 2007 report states that street prostitution is on the increase after an initial decline and that customers and sex workers now use the internet and mobile phone to communicate.

Star Bullet · 14-06-2011 11:43PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtaEdI3aiwg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rvA60zdkD8

MugMugs · 14-06-2011 11:54PM

So fiddy squid for a go of a Banner in the back seat of yer jammer ?

I made a wee poem there

Dravokivich · 14-06-2011 11:55PM

philologos wrote: »

Here's the statistics that they claim to use.

If you think they are dubious I'm sure you can contact them for citations.

As for Ruhama, ICTU Women, and the Immigrant Council of Ireland, at least they are actually doing something to counteract the shameful abuse that occurs to prostitutes (many involved against their will) rather than pretending it isn't a problem.

Human trafficing isn't the problem in this instance though. Prostitution is the "issue" being addressed with the stories in the OP. The Garda protraying herself as a prostitute would have most likely been Irish. Was she smuggled up from Cork or something bai?

More to the discussion as it's flown, a lot of women are in prostitution purely because they can make a lot of money quickly. In saying that though, there's a some that even enjoy it. But over all, it'll be very few that are being pushed into it against their will.

There's a strong online commuinity of punters and they do tend to be weary of trafficing along with the puntees. The websites tend to keep on putting up banners about how to report any issues as well.

Charging the would be punter, does not help sort out the problem with human trafficing as not all human trafficing leads to "sex slavery."

davetherave · 15-06-2011 12:01AM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

they must have either hired new bangards or those men were arrested for having no standards

Wow, less than 60 seconds to post a witty reply and get a dig in at the Guards....... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

BlueBaron · 15-06-2011 12:03AM

jesus they must of been stuck!

LighterGuy · 15-06-2011 01:41AM

Do you think its wrong for men to use escorts?

Something like this will always be about what side is debated.

- from the police side of view. Blokes will always goto prostitutes. So by them posing they are just "catching" what will inevidently occur.

- from the other side, its wrong that they "bait" - understandably its a persons choice to use a prostitute. But, if some guy wants to pay for it. Its his choice.

philologos · 15-06-2011 08:04AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

More to the discussion as it's flown, a lot of women are in prostitution purely because they can make a lot of money quickly. In saying that though, there's a some that even enjoy it. But over all, it'll be very few that are being pushed into it against their will

How can you know that?

Liam Byrne · 15-06-2011 08:25AM

Marguerite Tonery wrote: »

I find that a very degrading way to treat your fellow garda officer. If you dress women in attire that lures people to engage with them for prostitution, what is that saying about the way women are being treated in the Garda Siochana? There was a study done in the U.S. a number of years ago, where college students were given two roles in a prison setting, one half of the students were assigned the role of prisoners, the other half assigned the role of officers. This was a social psychology experiment. The experiment had to be stopped because the students who were assigned the role of officers became too violent towards their fellow students, whom they had perceived as less than them. I could see how this could go wrong. Would those officers who posed as prostitutes be seen in a lesser light by their colleagues (it happens, social psychology experiments have proven it), and if so are they open to harrassment and would they be less likely to be promoted than other female gardai who did not dress as prostitutes. The other thing to consider is this: Has this already affected the self-esteems of those officers who engaged in the garda operation? I believe that it will definitely have changed their outlook on the situation that exists for prostitutes and on men/women in general to some degree.

What a load of tripe! If someone thinks less of their colleague because they dresses as a hooker to catch a criminal then they're shallow and immature.

I'd think more of them for taking on an unpalatable task. Assuming, that is, they didn't go through with the "act".

Do those students not know the difference between acting and real life? Maybe they think less of Julia Roberts coz of "Pretty Woman" too ?

Liam Byrne · 15-06-2011 08:32AM

Am I the only one who sees potential for confusion re

1) Telling them they're being charged ("sure I know that - €50 as usual, right?")
2) Putting them in handcuffs (mind you, this may be made easier)

Marguerite Tonery · 15-06-2011 08:37AM

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Im pretty sure that was just a film.

No it wasn't. I was on a psychology exam paper. 2nd year summer paper in UCD.

Joey the lips · 15-06-2011 08:39AM

Should the gardai not target the vice dens instead?

Is this not the ultimate male fantasy.... A ban guarda as a pro and slapping on handcuffs.

Hummmmmm

Liam Byrne · 15-06-2011 08:44AM

Joey the lips wrote: »

Is this not the ultimate male fantasy.... A ban guarda as a pro and slapping on handcuffs.

Hummmmmm

Personally prefer if she's an amateur!

djdrobins · 15-06-2011 08:45AM

I know that they volunteer for this position, but surely the pimps etc who work the particular areas will monitor for new girls coming in. This will lead to someone (A female Garda) getting seriously hurt or killed.

This I think is a bad idea - they are targeting the wrong people. It's like arresting the guy who uses the drugs and forgetting the supplier of them in the first place. Look at the Katy French issue - she was not branded with (Druggie) yet there was a man hunt for the supplier.

The guards need to try and infiltrate the brothels and pimps - not the streets where they can lure pathetic guys into sex.

On a lighter note: And I also know a few hot ban gardas.
Do they wear the Garda Uniform and take our the hand-cuffs, just to give a "Happy Ending" to the night.

Female gardai pose as prostitutes

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