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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Apogee wrote: »
    Thanks.
    The second one looks more suitable. The one for a "Raven" dish.

    Postage will bump the price a lot.

    I'm sure some people here will enjoy hacksawing some 1/2" copper water pipe to save $20 to $25 :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭JeanLucPicard


    Hi

    Can someone please explain this to me please?

    I have an old sky box that I am using to receive Free to Air stations. Can I get RTE digital on this same setup now?

    If not what do I need to do. As I am not a techi minded person please keep replys in layman's terms.

    Thank you


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 272 ✭✭Vince Cable


    As I am not a techi minded person please keep replys in layman's terms.

    They're still talking about making waveguides out of copper pipe, I think that's your cue to wait a while & see what develops. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    However an old Sky box will never work.
    A "Sky HD" box in theory can work, but likely never will as Sky would need to change the software. There is disincentive for Sky to do that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee


    watty wrote: »
    The horn is for a markedly elliptic dish, so I will design an easy to make circular one. I'll also see if the polarising conversion unit is easy to copy and adapted to LNB without an Orthomode converter (which is not needed for us).

    Given the shape of your feedhorn, it most closely matches the shape of a Sky minidish - would be interesting to see what the performance is like and how much on an impact the perforation of the metal has on the signals.

    What is the weight of the combined feedhorn/polariser/OMT/LNB?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The OMT is very heavy (likely filters in it). It's not needed at all when there is no TX/BUC and if you have a single port dual polarity LNA (or even single polarity for Ka-Sat TV). The LNB is about 2x normal wieght as it has separate H and V waveguides/Ports.

    Anyway... Current configuration without the BUC is 938g, nearly 1kg. I think with sensible horn and no OMT (none is needed even for dual polarity) and single port LNB (single or dual polarity) the weight could be 400g or less.

    The horn is far more elliptical than sky dish horn.
    161648.png

    The Hughes LNB has two rectangular ports (separate H & V) and the depolariser/re-polariser thing has obviously a square wave guide (H & V) at one end and round at horn end. For matching you maybe need a minimum amount of circular waveguide between horn and polariser.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Apogee wrote: »
    Given the shape of your feedhorn, it most closely matches the shape of a Sky minidish - would be interesting to see what the performance is like and how much on an impact the perforation of the metal has on the signals.

    20GHz
    wavelength = 1.5cm

    Rule of thumb is that holes, roughness and error from paraboloid shape should be less than 1/10th wavelength = 1.5mm

    I have not got a Sky perforated pasta strainer here to test. Flaking rust will be a bigger issue too.

    I agree that horn looks more suited for Sky dish. I must find spec of F/D for it. Likely it's for quite different to regular dish. VSAT often are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    watty wrote: »
    20GHz
    wavelength = 1.5cm

    Rule of thumb is that holes, roughness and error from paraboloid shape should be less than 1/10th wavelength = 1.5mm

    I have not got a Sky perforated pasta strainer here to test. Flaking rust will be a bigger issue too.

    I agree that horn looks more suited for Sky dish. I must find spec of F/D for it. Likely it's for quite different to regular dish. VSAT often are.

    I lol'd.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Lidl and Aldi sell woks though!



    but the handles are awkward.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 139 ✭✭mar1us


    that is the beghining
    http://www.lyngsat.com/9east.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Gipo3


    Beginning of what?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,688 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    mar1us wrote: »

    See post# 1148, page 77.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,611 ✭✭✭Rick_


    Or, if you prefer a handier URL with only Saorsat on it, try this one - http://www.lyngsat.com/eka.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Healy1 wrote: »
    so is it possible to buy lnb yet?

    No, and probably won't be for a few months. You can be sure that as soon as they become available, someone here will post about it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee


    LoTwan has posted pics of the Ka-sat setup for internet in the Midband forum. What's interesting is the size of the dish - not much bigger than a Sky dish and normally dishes for satellite internet tend to be on the larger side.

    053feaf8.jpg

    66664f68.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    A setup which I definitely wouldn't copy as it's on an ESB pole.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    A setup which I definitely wouldn't copy as it's on an ESB pole.

    There appears to be another pole right behind it so I reckon this guy just used a second hand ESB pole specifically for mounting his two dishes to rather than mounting them on a live active pole.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,336 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Stinicker wrote: »
    There appears to be another pole right behind it so I reckon this guy just used a second hand ESB pole specifically for mounting his two dishes to rather than mounting them on a live active pole.

    Or the other pole could be a telegraph pole.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Stinicker wrote: »
    There appears to be another pole right behind it so I reckon this guy just used a second hand ESB pole specifically for mounting his two dishes to rather than mounting them on a live active pole.
    I doubt the sky installer used a second hand ESB pole (the sky dish was put there before the tooway dish) and then buried the cable stay and hooked up the one guy wire too! And install the tube for the neutral wire.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Seeing as how yiz are all so interested in the shaggin' pole, I asked him
    LoTwan wrote: »
    I put the pole up myself. It was the original ESB pole that was decommissioned when the subterranean supply went in. We recycled it from it's previous position to it's new home on the boundary. We didn't take off the ESB notice purely because I didn't get around to it ;-)

    Can we now get back to dishes? :p


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I doubt the sky installer used a second hand ESB pole (the sky dish was put there before the tooway dish) and then buried the cable stay and hooked up the one guy wire too! And install the tube for the neutral wire.
    I also asked earlier and it seems my eyes were playing tricks on me, the guy wire is indeed for the pole further back in the hedge. And that "neutral wire" is simply the duct for the satellite cables.

    Never mind, nothing to see here:o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,336 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Apogee wrote: »
    yiz are all so interested in the
    shaggin pole

    Careful now this is a family forum :)

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    not sniff in NEWTOWNABBEY !
    trying my new hughes ka lnb with td110 triax and doing a blind scan with a spiderbox hd on 9e - not a sniff of saorsat - have trieD the 2 transponders manually but nothing at all! i will keep trying already been at it for 3 hours but looks like the ka spot bEams are super tight!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee


    The transponder has been switched off for at least a week as far as I can see, and was still off yesterday when I checked.

    They mustn't have appreciated the free publicity


  • Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    so are you saying there is nothing there for me to see a this moment in time?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Not a dicky bird in terms of Saorsat. There is a data/beacon TP (which I can't lock) so you should be able to check that your aligned OKish on 9E either with a bog standard signal strength meter, or a spectrum analyzer if you have access.

    It's the fat peak at 1374MHz IF or 20124MHz.

    9escan.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 Astro7


    dbcool wrote: »
    not sniff in NEWTOWNABBEY !
    trying my new hughes ka lnb with td110 triax and doing a blind scan with a spiderbox hd on 9e - not a sniff of saorsat - have trieD the 2 transponders manually but nothing at all! i will keep trying already been at it for 3 hours but looks like the ka spot bEams are super tight!

    dbcool

    Where did you get the Hughes Ka LNB....and how much?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No, it's not that tight!

    Either it's not running, or you are not aligned or some other problem.

    Don't forget alignment is nearly four times more sensitive. Your 110cm dish on Ka looks almost like a 2.2m for Ku.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Apogee wrote: »
    The transponder has been switched off for at least a week as far as I can see, and was still off yesterday when I checked.

    They mustn't have appreciated the free publicity

    May explains why I get ku 9E perfectly and not a sausage on Ka (I borrowed Gerry's setup, so it did work previously).

    No doubt it will be back again. Maybe next week.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee


    2 different variations on the footprint - still no EIRPs.

    foot1.jpg

    foot2.jpg

    from here:
    http://www.vatm.de/fileadmin/pdf/vortraege/2011/satellite-day-2011_tooway.pdf


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    Apogee wrote: »
    2 different variations on the footprint - still no EIRPs.

    foot1.jpg
    Woah! Hold on a second... the NE Scotland beam is the same colour as the Ireland beam!
    That's a potential reception limiter in parts of Northern Ireland surely?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The NE Scotland used to be marked same as Cornwall / Wales.

    The edge of NI. is 1/3rd of distance between the two spots, so it's hard to say. But it does make it unlikely that any of mainland UK will get Saorsat.

    Each spot is 238MHz bandwidth and only two bands used. The remaining two colours achieved by LH or RH circular polarisation

    LH + higher = Blue
    RH + higher =
    LH + lower =
    RH + lower

    lower transponder freq approx 19.7 to 19.940 GHz band

    higher transponder freq approx 19.96 to 20.2 GHz band

    (based on LNB band and need to have as large a guard band between transponder frequencies).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 John1000


    There is a better footprint map on page 30 in this document

    http://www.europe-satellite.com/EMS/pdf_files/tooway_installer_manual.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee


    kasat_foot.jpg

    You can also see which spot corresponds to which Gateway - GW3 is Elfordstown.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee


    There's some very interesting reading in that PDF from John1000.

    multi.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,688 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    Each spot is 238MHz bandwidth and only two bands used. The remaining two colours achieved by LH or RH circular polarisation

    LH + higher = Blue
    RH + higher =
    LH + lower =
    RH + lower

    lower transponder freq approx 19.7 to 19.940 GHz band

    higher transponder freq approx 19.96 to 20.2 GHz band

    (based on LNB band and need to have as large a guard band between transponder frequencies).
    Apogee wrote: »
    kasat_foot.jpg

    We now know the 4 frequencies
    Beam number|Beam color| Symbol rate| Center frequency| Polarization
    1| Blue| 50| 19.73125| RHCP
    2| Orange| 50| 19.99375| RHCP
    3| Purple| 50| 20.11875| LHCP
    4| Green| 50| 19.85625| LHCP


  • Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭moro_original


    So, what are the odds of Saorsat working in Belfast?

    I'm reckoning still okay, given that the Tooway map suggests using Spot 3 up to about Banbridge, and the closest it recommends the Scottish Spot 3 is Dundee. I guess we just don't know, but the map of the stops in the Tooway manual seems to suggest that Spot 3 for Ireland reaches right up to (almost) Belfast. If Belfast is fringe Spot 3 from Ireland, surely it should get it okay and not be affected by the Scottish Spot 3?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    All of N.I. might be OK

    See
    163140.jpg

    The red lines are approx where the two spots are equal. So you need a certain distance closer to Irish Spot from red line to get sufficient signal quality. Depends on SR, FEC and exact carrier frequency. The outer contour I have added for Irish spot shows where signal has dropped enough that it doesn't interfere with East Scotland or Calais French Spot. It would be still easily be received if those spots didn't exist. The Middle contour is where signal is unusable as the Irish Spot is equal to other spots, assuming exact same power, FEC, carrier and symbol rate. All of NI might be OK

    Note the frequency table is NOT the transponder for each spot.
    Beam number|Beam color| Symbol rate| Center frequency| Polarization
    1| Blue| 50| 19.73125| RHCP
    2| Orange| 50| 19.99375| RHCP
    3| Purple| 50| 20.11875| LHCP
    4| Green| 50| 19.85625| LHCP

    Those are the 1st Internet services. Each spot is a 238MHz wide transponder

    So assuming approximately
    Lower = 19.7 to 19.940 and
    higher =19.96 to 20.2 are likely entire transponders..
    Beam number|Beam color| Center frequency| Polarization
    1| Blue| Lower| RHCP
    2| Orange| Higher| RHCP
    3| Purple| Higher| LHCP
    4| Green| Lower| LHCP


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,688 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Spot beams from http://www.satbeams.com/satellites?norad=37258

    Ka-Sat spot-beam 17
    2gvjy1f.jpg

    Ka-Sat spot-beam 20
    2qiqmtv.jpg

    Ka-Sat spot-beam 14
    2uenp1i.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,688 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    Note the frequency table is NOT the transponder for each spot.
    Beam number|Beam color| Symbol rate| Center frequency| Polarization
    1| Blue| 50| 19.73125| RHCP
    2| Orange| 50| 19.99375| RHCP
    3| Purple| 50| 20.11875| LHCP
    4| Green| 50| 19.85625| LHCP

    Those are the 1st Internet services. Each spot is a 238MHz wide transponder

    So assuming approximately
    Lower = 19.7 to 19.940 and
    higher =19.96 to 20.2 are likely entire transponders..
    Beam number|Beam color| Center frequency| Polarization
    1| Blue| Lower| RHCP
    2| Orange| Higher| RHCP
    3| Purple| Higher| LHCP
    4| Green| Lower| LHCP

    So when they refer to 20118 as a centre frequency, what is it the centre frequency of and how wide is that frequency (237 MHz?)?

    How many transponders would be required for 4 frequencies and 2 polarizations (i.e. 4 spot beams, excluding the other 78) - 1, 2, 4? Is it possible to split a transponder in a number of virtual transponders i.e. different frequencies and/or polarizations?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,806 ✭✭✭Apogee


    The Cush wrote: »
    So when they refer to 20118 as a centre frequency, what is it the centre frequency of and how wide is that frequency (237 MHz?)?

    It's the one in the photo - it shows up as 1374MHz IF or 20124MHz (the analyzer is uncalibrated and a few MHz out).

    Based on the Tooway manual, I reckon Belfast should be fine. Those Satbeam maps look quite a bit off to me - too far south.


  • Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭moro_original


    Apogee wrote: »
    I reckon Belfast should be fine.

    Hooray! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Cush wrote: »
    So when they refer to 20118 as a centre frequency, what is it the centre frequency of and how wide is that frequency (237 MHz?)?

    How many transponders would be required for 4 frequencies and 2 polarizations (i.e. 4 spot beams, excluding the other 78) - 1, 2, 4? Is it possible to split a transponder in a number of virtual transponders i.e. different frequencies and/or polarizations?

    It's the centre frequency of the 1st data carrier, DVB-2 / DOCSIS downlink.
    It's roughly 50MHz wide (Related to symbol rate).

    Each spot (there are about 82) uses an entire single transponder. So 82 x 238MHz transponders.. At least one Ku Satellite has 64 transponders.

    So EVERYTHING on the Irish spot (2 x RTE carriers and 3 x Internet carriers, only one listed for now) is on a single transponder dedicated to the Irish Spot. There may also be narrow band beacons for control and telemetry.

    The bandwidth possible for a transponder is bit more than 10% of the frequency. So even without advances in technology a ka Transponder will have twice the bandwidth of a ku transponder. Often nowadays what is called a "Transponder" on a satellite is simply a DVB-S or DVB-S2 multiplexed carrier.

    The bandwidth needed for a carrier is approximately the symbol rate for DVB-C, DVB-C2, DVB-S and DVB-S2.

    So RTE 25Msym/s is about 25MHz, about 1/8th to 1/9th of a transponder. Eventually they will need a second carrier for content on 2nd DTT Mux.

    The raw Bit rate is approximately symbol rate x bits per symbol
    bits per symbol is 2 for QPSK (as there are 4 possible patterns 2^2 = 4).
    bits per symbol is 5 for 32 APSK (as there are 32 possible patterns 2 ^ 5 = 32).
    The FEC setting is roughly amount of data after Error correction.

    so 1/2 means corrected data rate = 0.5 x Raw rate.

    (all approximate).

    The Internet connection modulation mode vary with weather unlike TV broadcast, so the data rate varies. This means in heavy rain you don't lose connection (maybe QPSK), and in Clear sky (maybe 32APSK) you get more speed.

    So the frequencies in the table are carriers about 50MHz wide. Since RTE will eventually use 2 x 25MHz (approximately) that leaves 3 x 50MHz (approximately) for Internet DVB-S2 downlink. Depending on Weather and dish size that's
    50 x 2 x 0.5 approx in heavy rain = 50Mbps
    50 x 5 x 8/9 approx in clear sky = 222Mbps

    They claim 70Gbps for satellite. That's 850Mbps per spot
    if you can put 4 x carriers each 50M symbols / sec (the upper limit of a modem or DVB-S2 receiver anyway, most DVB-S modems/TV receivers are 45M sym/s max), then in very very heavy rain your total capacity is 200Mbps. According to the 70Gbps, they assume 850MBps/4 = 212.5Mbps

    It's likely the 70GBps is sum of uplink and downlink, so expected average speed closer to 110Mbps per carrier per spot.

    They are only going to add 2nd, 3rd and 4th carriers as carriers "fill up".

    At 50:1 contention and 10Mbps user, you have 550 users per carrier. At more typical satellite contention of 500:1 you have 5,000 users per carrier, or 20,000 users per spot.

    Saorsat essentially removes 1/4 of the Ka-Sat capacity for internet on Irish Spot. But in east Coast and Border areas (and further with bigger dish) they can add Irish users to Welsh and N.I. spots if Irish capacity is exhausted.

    The low download cap per hour, day, week as well as month is to allow up to 500:1 contention to work. In other words, even on Ka-Sat, Internet access will be rubbish compared with 10Mbps on UPC, Fixed Wireless, Fibre or DSL if they sell more than 10% of their target.

    My theory on the four dishes on Ka-Sat is:
    1) The feed horns end diameter (minimum spacing) vs F/D for dish vs spot diameter set a minimum spot spacing (maybe about 4 degrees)
    2) Each dish can be slightly offset by half the angle of spots of same "colour", (maybe about 2 degrees) to fill in the gaps between spots and ensure overlapping coverage
    3) Each dish has 1/4 of the 82 feeds needed for system. With 25 "notional" horn offsets that's a 5 x 5 grid. (More than 5 LNBs in a row on a regular receiving dish gets poor). Some dishes have 20 and some a few more giving total of 82 rather than 100. The Viasat1 (launch this year or next?) is same design as Ka-Sat and has more spots.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I updated this recently and today
    http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage


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  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    watty wrote: »
    I updated this recently and today
    http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage

    I know this is slightly off topic but this is something that has been bugging me as a fan of FTA TV: is the days of the widebeam astra and other satillites coming to an end and we will be limited to narrow localised content on tight/narrow beam satillites?

    Thanks to all of ye for compliling all this info about this in the thread - it has been and is an interesting read :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,688 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    The Viasat1 (launch this year or next?) is same design as Ka-Sat and has more spots.

    ViaSat 1 is planned to launch at the end of July. It has 56 transponders and approx 140 Gbps capacity (double that of Ka-Sat)

    Thanks for the detailed reply above.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Hmm...

    It's possible I suppose that the high and low 238MHz "bands" share a transponder. Sounds a bit wideband. 500MHz on one 19.7 to 20.2 GHz transponder (25% bandwidth)? I suppose not impossible. It would explain size of gap as filtering between TWT (or other device) and feeds needs a gap between bands.


    That would make Ka-Sat 41 transponders = 82 Spots and Viasat 1 56 Transponders = 112 spots?

    I don't know. 41 and 56 sound more reasonable numbers. Spots with SAME frequency even if opposite polarisations absolutely can't share a Transponder.

    In either case, there is only one physical transponder used for an entire spot. If the transponders can run the entire 19.7 to 20.2 GHz band, then each transponder is used for two spots, one is higher part of band and one is lower part of band.

    I'm not calling it low and high band as there is also a "low" ka band 19.2Ghz to 19.7Ghz and a higher Ka Band 20.2 to 20.7GHz

    Well, the 70Gbps and 140Gbps are both a bit hypothetical peak capacities. More so in areas with rain.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    According to the manual http://www.europe-satellite.com/EMS/pdf_files/tooway_installer_manual.pdf

    The Irish spot downlink is uplinked in Arganda Spain (GW4). There is direct fibre from Ireland to Spain, hence no Elfordstown or Donnybook uplink for Saorsat.

    Overon Arganda Earth Station aka Arganda Teleport
    http://www.uplinkstation.com/or/Overon-Arganda-Teleport.html

    http://www.overon.es/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=171&Itemid=284&lang=en

    Maybe a picture of the Teleport / "Earth Station"? http://www.mediapro.es/eng/overon.htm


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,688 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    watty wrote: »
    That would make Ka-Sat 41 transponders = 82 Spots and Viasat 1 56 Transponders = 112 spots?

    62 spots only covering the high density areas of N America according to http://www.satbeams.com/satellites?id=2462


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