Emigration - How f**cked are we

FISMA · 12-06-2011 06:43PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I never understood all this hype... most people who leave now do so with a view of coming back once the economy has recovered and there are jobs again.

Shouldn't we be happy that people leave to find work rather than sit around on the dole?

No you shouldn't it is called brain drain for a reason.

Australia, the US, Canada, and all will be quite selective in their choice. They'll take the best.

The best do return in time, often for retirement.

Shenshen · 12-06-2011 06:50PM

FISMA wrote: »

No you shouldn't it is called brain drain for a reason.

Australia, the US, Canada, and all will be quite selective in their choice. They'll take the best.

The best do return in time, often for retirement.

I left Germany 8 years ago after having completed university. I had worked for 2 years, lost my job and left behind a country with 15% unemployment.

I've never been out of work here, lucky enough to work in one of the sectors still going strong (IT). I could return to Germany now, and would find it fairly easy to find work again.
Had I stayed, I would have looked at several years on the dole. And how many companies would now be keen on employing a middle-aged professional who hasn't worked in her fields for 5 years or more?

Good thing you're still here to remind people of where all the brains went...

seven-iron · 12-06-2011 06:55PM

I probably wont be coming back for ten years or so.

FISMA · 12-06-2011 07:07PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Good thing you're still here to remind people of where all the brains went...

It is 14:05 where I am, what time is it where you are?

Amhran Nua · 12-06-2011 07:09PM

cml387 wrote: »

You could go to Australia. No, wait..

http://www.news.com.au/money/property/the-year-the-great-australian-dream-could-become-a-reality-for-battling-aussies/story-e6frfmd0-1225992260530

Sound familiar.Bargains to be had. Now is the time.

Yup, Australia is the next domino to fall. I give them two years at the outside.

Shenshen · 12-06-2011 07:10PM

FISMA wrote: »

It is 14:05 where I am, what time is it where you are?

Congrats on mastering reading clocks.

fat__tony · 12-06-2011 07:53PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I never understood all this hype... most people who leave now do so with a view of coming back once the economy has recovered and there are jobs again.

Shouldn't we be happy that people leave to find work rather than sit around on the dole?

Around 70-80% Irish people don't return though.

I saw this stat somewhere in the past few weeks, can't remember.

TelePaul · 12-06-2011 07:57PM

This may well be an unpopular take on things here, but to be honest, this is a different type of emigration to that experienced in the 1980s. It's the young, college-educated middle-classes leaving as opposed to the working class tradesmen. Honestly, I don't know anyone who has moved to Australia because they couldn't support themselves or their family here. I've known a lot of people leaving white-collar jobs to lounge on the beach in Australia. There also seems to be a large proportion of people who wouldn't dream of applying for unskilled positions here but who are more than happy to paint fences and pull pints in Oz. Fair enough, if that's what you wanna do that's fine, but don't attribute it to our crippled economy. Genuinely, I believe a large number of young grads are scared more by the notion of having to work a forty hour week than they are by economic recession.

Biggins · 12-06-2011 08:02PM

TelePaul wrote: »

...Genuinely, I believe a large number of young grads are scared more by the notion of having to work a forty hour week than they are by economic recession.

I think your totally way off the mark and your tainting a lot of students in the wrong light.
SOME might be work shy - but no more than others who have not attended 3rd level.
I totally disagree with you.

fat__tony · 12-06-2011 08:05PM

TelePaul wrote: »

This may well be an unpopular take on things here, but to be honest, this is a different type of emigration to that experienced in the 1980s. It's the young, college-educated middle-classes leaving as opposed to the working class tradesmen. Honestly, I don't know anyone who has moved to Australia because they couldn't support themselves or their family here. I've known a lot of people leaving white-collar jobs to lounge on the beach in Australia. There also seems to be a large proportion of people who wouldn't dream of applying for unskilled positions here but who are more than happy to paint fences and pull pints in Oz. Fair enough, if that's what you wanna do that's fine, but don't attribute it to our crippled economy. Genuinely, I believe a large number of young grads are scared more by the notion of having to work a forty hour week than they are by economic recession.

Utter nonsense.

I know plenty of grads at home who'd give their right arm for a permanent 40 hr position.

Enough with the bull****.

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 12-06-2011 08:05PM

I think we should completely evacuate Ireland until the crisis has been resolved.
Leave Enda Kenny here alone to come up with a cure, like in "I am Legend".

Shenshen · 12-06-2011 08:08PM

Biggins wrote: »

I think your totally way off the mark and your tainting a lot of students in the wrong light.
SOME might be work shy - but no more than others who have not attended 3rd level.
I totally disagree with you.

I think there's a little difference between going traveling after college/university, even extended travel, and actual emigrating.
Most people I work with spent several years abroad, doing things like working in pubs, working as cleaners or builders or any other kind of untrained jobs. They always meant to return, so the kind of work they did didn't matter that much.

12-06-2011 08:11PM

So there is no actual recession here? All these wasters leaving should role up their sleeves, apply for a job and get stuck in rather then emmigrating...... all these 3rd level graduates should pick from the range of jobs available and do the 40 hours........... an none of the unemployed married tradesmen with families up to the arse in mortgage debt with no cash are not leaving because ............

In all fairness there is some retarded sh1t on boards but some of the numpties posting on this thread must be living in a parellel universe or something. Wake the f up.

D1stant · 12-06-2011 08:16PM

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

I think we should completely evacuate Ireland until the crisis has been resolved.
Leave Enda Kenny here alone to come up with a cure, like in "I am Legend".

Not quite alone. He will have the zombie bankers for company

12-06-2011 08:22PM

TelePaul wrote: »

This may well be an unpopular take on things here, but to be honest, this is a different type of emigration to that experienced in the 1980s. It's the young, college-educated middle-classes leaving as opposed to the working class tradesmen. Honestly, I don't know anyone who has moved to Australia because they couldn't support themselves or their family here. I've known a lot of people leaving white-collar jobs to lounge on the beach in Australia. There also seems to be a large proportion of people who wouldn't dream of applying for unskilled positions here but who are more than happy to paint fences and pull pints in Oz. Fair enough, if that's what you wanna do that's fine, but don't attribute it to our crippled economy. Genuinely, I believe a large number of young grads are scared more by the notion of having to work a forty hour week than they are by economic recession.

That's complete drivel with no basis whatsoever. I applied for over 500 positions in Dublin, London and elsewhere in the EU after I finished my Masters last year and got exactly three replies for low paid teaching work. I have a good degree and good work experience/references. A lot of the friends I went to college with are doing unskilled work (nursing home care assistant, waitress etc). Where exactly are all these 40 hour a week white collar jobs in Ireland? I do know plenty of people pulling pints in Australia but only because they figure it's better to do it there than here. I'm living in London now but if I want a decent job in my area, I'm going to have to emigrate further afield. Suggesting that a large number of grads would rather pick fruit for pennies than have a well paying job at home is pretty insulting tbh.

cml387 · 12-06-2011 08:32PM

Above all the noise in this thread,the one thing that stands out is "Here we go again".
My father left Ireland in the 50's because the building industry in Dublin tanked.
I was lucky to be able to stay in Ireland (but paid 65% tax for the privilege) during the 80's when we waved goodbye from the airport to another lost generation.
And it's happening all over again.

Ireland is the old sow that eats her farrow.

ilovesleep · 12-06-2011 08:47PM

Haelium wrote: »

You're absolutely ****ed royally. not me though... I'm moving.

Try voting Fianna Fail back in after losing faith with Fine Gael, that's sure to work.

Dont you dare ever vote Fianna ******s ever again

tayto lover · 12-06-2011 08:59PM

cml387 wrote: »

Above all the noise in this thread,the one thing that stands out is "Here we go again".
My father left Ireland in the 50's because the building industry in Dublin tanked.
I was lucky to be able to stay in Ireland (but paid 65% tax for the privilege) during the 80's when we waved goodbye from the airport to another lost generation.
And it's happening all over again.

Ireland is the old sow that eats her farrow.

Exactly. How many parents bade farewell to their children not knowing if they would ever see them again ? There is far more to this problem than work with people homesick and scared far away from home and parents at home awake at night really missing their loved ones. My mother said goodbye to 6 of her 7 children in the 1950's and 1960's and 3 of them died abroad. Its heart-breaking for families and all because of the greed of Politicians, Bankers and Speculators. Yet the poor have to suffer for the sins of the rich.
We have no balls in this country to stand up and chase these criminals out instead of our young.

TelePaul · 12-06-2011 10:01PM

I seem to have offended quite a few people in my last post. I can completely appreciate just how frustrating it is to be qualified and out of work, but I don't believe for one second that this the position that everyone finds themselves in. Granted, any evidence I can allude to is purely anecdotal and based on observations of my immediate peer group, though it seems that any criticisms of this viewpoint are equally baseless, so swings and roundabouts. That said, you can't argue with the absurdity of people leaving relatively stable, well-paid jobs for a bit of fun down under - or rather, it shouldn't be confused with a genuine need to emigrate. That's all I've highlighted based on observations of real people, you can from it what you want.

beano345 · 12-06-2011 10:05PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Exactly. How many parents bade farewell to their children not knowing if they would ever see them again ? There is far more to this problem than work with people homesick and scared far away from home and parents at home awake at night really missing their loved ones. My mother said goodbye to 6 of her 7 children in the 1950's and 1960's and 3 of them died abroad. Its heart-breaking for families and all because of the greed of Politicians, Bankers and Speculators. Yet the poor have to suffer for the sins of the rich.
We have no balls in this country to stand up and chase these criminals out instead of our young.

could'nt agree more im emigrating in the next few months and what breaks my heart is leaving my family behind.my mother and father are at an age were things can happen and i don't know if its the last time i'll be seeing either of them when i step on the plane but i don't really have much choice jobs are scarce here and i don't know if i'll be back to ireland to live in the future.gonna miss my dog to bits aswell:mad:

TelePaul · 12-06-2011 10:15PM

RoverJames wrote: »

So there is no actual recession here? All these wasters leaving should role up their sleeves, apply for a job and get stuck in rather then emmigrating...... all these 3rd level graduates should pick from the range of jobs available and do the 40 hours........... an none of the unemployed married tradesmen with families up to the arse in mortgage debt with no cash are not leaving because ............

In all fairness there is some retarded sh1t on boards but some of the numpties posting on this thread must be living in a parellel universe or something. Wake the f up.

I think the truth is always going to be more grey than black-and-white. Given the choice, I think most young people would rather pull pints in Bondi Beach than the local, and power to them....but it's hardly forced migration. Obviously, that's very different to families struggling with negative equity but nobody is saying that they're the same. A lot of people buying in to tabloid sensationalism.

Shiroki · 12-06-2011 10:22PM

I'm going to college next year for four years (IT). I've already decided that I'm leaving as soon as I graduate. I for one won't pay for the greed and corruption that went on in this country.

12-06-2011 10:24PM

TelePaul wrote: »

I seem to have offended quite a few people in my last post. I can completely appreciate just how frustrating it is to be qualified and out of work, but I don't believe for one second that this the position that everyone finds themselves in. Granted, any evidence I can allude to is purely anecdotal and based on observations of my immediate peer group, though it seems that any criticisms of this viewpoint are equally baseless, so swings and roundabouts. That said, you can't argue with the absurdity of people leaving relatively stable, well-paid jobs for a bit of fun down under - or rather, it shouldn't be confused with a genuine need to emigrate. That's all I've highlighted based on observations of real people, you can from it what you want.

Have you tried applying for a job recently? Taken a look at the job sites? Where are all these well-paid jobs you're talking about? I can honestly say I don't know one person who emigrated for the heck of it. That's what J1's are for. The people I know would much rather have just stayed at home. Heck, even I would rather be living in Dublin than here in London a lot of the time, but going back isn't really an option. People who graduated during the boom and walked into 40K a year jobs might be jacking in jobs to travel (although I doubt this is happening on a large scale) but if you think recent grads are doing it, you're mental.

marxcoo · 12-06-2011 10:27PM

TelePaul wrote: »

I think the truth is always going to be more grey than black-and-white. Given the choice, I think most young people would rather pull pints in Bondi Beach than the local, and power to them....but it's hardly forced migration. Obviously, that's very different to families struggling with negative equity but nobody is saying that they're the same. A lot of people buying in to tabloid sensationalism.

I would class emigration and going to Bondi for a year to pull pints as two quite different things. Look, new graduates/school leavers etc have been taking a year or two abroad, lounging about etc for years but I reckon there is more people who are leaving now with the intention of settling down permanently or at least for quite a long time in a foreign country.
I've done 18 months travelling and working casual jobs etc but now I am being faced with the possiblilty that I may have to leave Ireland to find a job in my career area. Going away with buddies last time was exciting and fun but this time if I do have to leave it certainly won't be a fun experience- I really don't want to leave and am looking very hard for a job here but I just am not getting anywhere.

TelePaul · 12-06-2011 10:40PM

Milena Bald Varnish wrote: »

Have you tried applying for a job recently? Taken a look at the job sites? Where are all these well-paid jobs you're talking about? I can honestly say I don't know one person who emigrated for the heck of it. That's what J1's are for. The people I know would much rather have just stayed at home. Heck, even I would rather be living in Dublin than here in London a lot of the time, but going back isn't really an option. People who graduated during the boom and walked into 40K a year jobs might be jacking in jobs to travel (although I doubt this is happening on a large scale) but if you think recent grads are doing it, you're mental.

It'd be great if you could tell me where I alluded to 'all the well-paid jobs'. Might take you a while given that I didn't actually say it. I know times are tough, I get that. All I said was that a number of people that I know personally have taken this particular course of action, and that leaving Ireland is not the same is emigrating due to economic duress. I'm not sure why that makes me 'mental', but again, people seem to lap up the despair.

TelePaul · 12-06-2011 10:42PM

marxcoo wrote: »

I would class emigration and going to Bondi for a year to pull pints as two quite different things.

But that's my point exactly

To recognise it for what it is one thing, but to play the recession card when you're off to have a good time is another thing altogether, and is a bit disingenuous (not 'you' personally).

marxcoo · 12-06-2011 10:49PM

TelePaul wrote: »

But that's my point exactly To recognise it for what it is one thing, but to play the recession card when you're off to have a good time is another thing altogether, and is a bit disingenuous (not 'you' personally).

Oh I totally agree but I think the majority of people going away with just the intention of taking a year or two away and not really looking for any serious work don't try to play the recession card. Their parents probably do though! :rolleyes:

ArtSmart · 12-06-2011 10:51PM

pragmatic1 wrote: »

It wont be improving in ten years. We're in very serious trouble as a nation. On a sidenote, IT, pharmaceuticals and the environmental sector are doing very well, so at least we're retaining people from those areas.

Hmm. dunno. kinda depends on whether debt forgiveness kicks in. even so, we're in a better position than the insular 80's - in terms of confidence (albeit rattled), experience, international contacts, education, infrastructure (better, not best).

still, that's just my opinion.

(of course, that's assuming there's anyone left!

)

Solair · 12-06-2011 11:17PM

It's different to the 50s, but it has a lot in common with the 80s when large numbers of graduates, and people in their 20s and 30s, who found jobs didn't exist here, went abroad .

It's not just lack of employment opportunities. The general economy is just drying up.
I 'm self employed and I have to consider going abroad too. The current situation is bleak in ireland. Theres just no certainty about anything anymore.

I can't comfortably predict how things will be in six months, never mind six years.

Tax rates, access to state services, health, education etc are all hanging in the balance.

Then, to make things worse, the banks are a fiasco. You can't rely on credit lines, regardless of how sound your business is. You can't even feel entirely comfortable about your savings anymore.

Even in the worst of the previous recessions there was at least stability even if there was no money.

Everything is unpredictable and consumer confidence is sinking fast.

I just feel I can't tie my future to a unpredictable sinking ship with an over optimistic captain.

So, sadly, it might be time to move somewhere sensible.

Posted on mobile, excuse any typos

D-Generate · 12-06-2011 11:24PM

Those that I know that went to Oz were generally not the type who knew how to knuckle down in college and very much so came across as being a bit work-shy. Now that is just my experience but the work ethic that I observed in them is a hell of a lot less than the work ethic I have observed in those who have emigrated to London. I very much believe that a large percentage of those on the work visa are just looking for a 1-2 year break and hope that the situation changes by then so they can come home. I don't think they have travelled so as to put their talents to use.

On another note, there are plenty of jobs that are not being filled due to lack of talent available. I know a number of people in IT and Elec Eng who are trying to fill vacant positions but there are simply not that many candidates out there. Anyone who has a 2:1 or higher already has a decent position and with the grade inflation endemic in our universities there is no point hiring a candidate with a 2:2 or Pass. Out of my undergrad class in Elec Eng I would say only 3 or 4 out of a class of 25 don't have well paid positions or PhDs now and these guys were absolute wasters.
A lot of those unemployed have made poor choices in terms of their undergraduate degrees and instead of studying Celtic Civ or some other hobby course they should have perhaps pursued a degree in something that actually gives you a decent skill-set on completion. And yes I know that the counter-argument is that those who studied Civil Eng now can't get jobs and yeah that is some what true as there is little employment in civil eng at the moment. Fortunately though, due to choosing a good course with hard skills they are being snatched up by consultancies and other fields that need individuals with a quantitative background. I know that the bank I am in have hired a bunch of civil engineers as business analysts in the recent grad intake.

Emigration - How f**cked are we

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