Alternatives to jail ?

scudzilla · 10-06-2011 05:23PM

Been in the news this week that the European Court of Human Rights are trying to stop the practice of Slopping out as it's inhumane.

IT'S FCUKIN PRISON, IT AINT SUPPOSED TO BE CUSHY

Badgermonkey · 10-06-2011 05:33PM

Gaol.

Seachmall · 10-06-2011 05:36PM

beglopty wrote: »

I think a lot of people who have lost someone on the roads may think differently.

Of course they would and it's an unfortunate situation for all involved however I don't think the grieving are the best people to decide what is justice and what isn't. Justice should be blind and balanced, that's difficult to be whilst grieving.

Chuck Stone · 10-06-2011 05:37PM

liah wrote: »

Honestly think there should be a bigger focus in most Western countries on finding a way to make the prisoners give back, e.g. tiered (according to offense) work programs, plus more focus on rehabilitating low-level criminals (depending on circumstance).

Make them do something productive for us while they're in there and repay their debt to society. Lightens the tax load, too, if they're doing stuff like roads - you don't have to pay prisoners.

I'm not sure why this practice is so uncommon now. Human rights groups must've gotten at it or something, used to be much more popular even 50 years ago.

Doesn't putting people to work in this way stifle entrepreneurial endeavour and is a hinderance to creating jobs and wealth?

liah · 10-06-2011 05:45PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Doesn't putting people to work in this way stifle entrepreneurial endeavour and is a hinderance to creating jobs and wealth?

Only if you've a prison population like America does, imo.

If they put them to work on roads and other tax-funded projects, I can only see it lightening the overall tax burden on people because it would go towards the ridiculous amount of money that's spent on keeping criminals in prison.

I mean, it's not exactly something I've looked into a whole lot, so I'm sure there's a reason - but as far as I can see it wouldn't do a significant amount of damage to entrepreneurs/job creation/wealth. Most jobs for the general public aren't created in government/tax-funded manual labour as far as I'm aware. What's stopping anyone from creating jobs in that scenario, can you be more specific?

minidazzler · 10-06-2011 05:58PM

Seachmall wrote: »

That's for career criminals, people who genuinely make mistakes (out of carelessness or whatever) or aren't necessarily career criminals (e.g. once off fight that resulted in a death) or scumbags (pot smokers, graffiti artists) should be put to work cleaning our streets and what-not.

Wait, smoking pot and being an artist makes you a scumbag now?

Seachmall · 10-06-2011 06:00PM

minidazzler wrote: »

Wait, smoking pot and being an artist makes you a scumbag now?

That's supposed to read as

[...] aren't necessarily career criminals or scumbags [...]

As in "not career criminals" and "not scumbags". The brackets make it a little more difficult to read that way though

.

languagenerd · 10-06-2011 06:06PM

Jail just isn't as much a deterrent as it used to be - TVs, etc. For lesser crimes or once-off offenders, just being locked away from society and one's family may be punishment enough, but when you look at the amount of repeat offenders out there, the prospect of being sent to jail clearly doesn't scare them.

For people who have committed serious crimes or repeatedly committed lesser crimes, prison should involve having only the very basic human rights - shelter, basic food, healthcare - and hard labour.
People who have committed lesser crimes (fraud, minor vandalism, petty theft on one occasion etc.) could do community service instead though - 6 weeks picking up rubbish or renovating parks or whatever could prove better than a month behind bars.

One of the main perks of jails though, is that it keeps criminals away from the general public. I wouldn't want an alternative to prison in the case of murderers, sex offenders etc.

Guy:Incognito · 10-06-2011 06:10PM

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Seriously, wasnt jail devised in a different era when it went hand in hand with hunger, disease, cold and isolation within the high walls.
I think someone has lost the manual along the way...this version of punishment dosent seem to be working in this centuary......cc30

They need to bring back the hunger, cold and isolation.

Guy:Incognito · 10-06-2011 06:15PM

minidazzler wrote: »

Wait, smoking pot and being an artist makes you a scumbag now?

Drawing pictures on other peoples property is not "being an artist"

Chuck Stone · 10-06-2011 06:20PM

liah wrote: »

If they put them to work on roads and other tax-funded projects... as far as I can see it wouldn't do a significant amount of damage to entrepreneurs/job creation/wealth.

These jobs and projects can be tendered and built and managed by private companies creating jobs and wealth - this is fairly common way of road building AFAIK.

I can only see it lightening the overall tax burden on people because it would go towards the ridiculous amount of money that's spent on keeping criminals in prison.

I agree that the prison costs are big problem and seem to create their own self-perpetuating momentum.

I think ending the war on drugs would be a good start. I'd be concerned thst finding things for prisoners to do is dangerous in that it could contribute to criminalising people for vitimless crimes. (We have a big road to build so were gonna need more strong young men in jail). Aslo, wouldn't the costs of seurity negate any benefit?

I mean, it's not exactly something I've looked into a whole lot,

Me niether! I'm just expressing a concern tbh.

Seachmall · 10-06-2011 06:21PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Drawing pictures on other peoples property is not "being an artist"

It makes you a criminal but being a criminal is not contradictory to being an artist.

They're artists and criminals.

Guy:Incognito · 10-06-2011 06:21PM

Chuck Stone wrote: »

These jobs and projects can be tendered and built and managed by private companies creating jobs and wealth - this is fairly common way of road building AFAIK.

Use them as fertilizer for the medians and verges.

Guy:Incognito · 10-06-2011 06:24PM

Seachmall wrote: »

It makes you a criminal but being a criminal is not contradictory to being an artist.

They're artists and criminals.

If they want to be artists then they should buy their own canvasses. Will they spray paint their parents houses or their own when they buy one?

Seachmall · 10-06-2011 06:55PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If they want to be artists then they should buy their own canvasses. Will they spray paint their parents houses or their own when they buy one?

Understanding and choosing a medium is an important part of art and I think public (or private) property is a valid choice (in an artistic sense, not a legal or even moral one).

Pauleta · 10-06-2011 07:02PM

If i were leader of the nation, my idea of prison would be people chained to walls in the pitch dark 24/7, with a loaf of bread and some water as their daily rations. I would also have Guantanamo Bay style prisons for lesser offenders and well behaved prisoners.

Chuck Stone · 10-06-2011 07:07PM

Pauleta wrote: »

If i were leader of the nation, my idea of prison would be people chained to walls in the pitch dark 24/7, with a loaf of bread and some water as their daily rations. I would also have Guantanamo Bay style prisons for lesser offenders and well behaved prisoners.

With this attitude I reckon it would be highly likely that you'd end up in one.

EarlERizer · 10-06-2011 07:50PM

Seachmall wrote: »

I don't think jail is an effective punishment nor do I think it should be.

I view jail as an inefficient way to keep scumbags off our streets. I personally think we should ship 'em all to a remote island somewhere.

If they disregard the rules of a society they should no longer be accepted in that society, letting them out of jail is cutting them slack which I don't think they deserve.

That's for career criminals, people who genuinely make mistakes (out of carelessness or whatever) or aren't necessarily career criminals (e.g. once off fight that resulted in a death) or scumbags (pot smokers, graffiti artists) should be put to work cleaning our streets and what-not.

:rolleyes: Fail!!! In your sanctimonious attempt to come across as a civilised member of society you've highlighted your own ignorance with your above definitions.

Jail is a very efficient way of segregating criminals from the rest of the population, the failing is the system, the laws & the law makers and the softy soft approach to criminals.

Unfortunately, here in the real world,we live in a time were we're controlled by criminals in power (our own fault-we vote for them), with this comes a trickle down effect, you see, if you treat people like animals over a period of time,pretty soon they begin to act like them, the result been you reap what you sow.

That said, we are way too soft on people who break the law,however, those who make the laws and those who enforce them need to remember they are not above the law themselves.

Personally I think the politically correct world we live in today has supressed our ability to deter people from breaking the law but the contradiction is the law enforcers turn on the frustrated ordinary decent people when they've had enough and begin to voice their concerns by way of protests, forgetting they are employed to protect the people not keep them in check.

"you don't need a hammer to crack a nut" as they say, but swiping at one with a feather is of no help either!

:rolleyes:Sure none of whats been said before will matter once we're all supressed by the gathering authoritarian governments of our incoming Orwellian era...... we'll all be treated the same save for the elite few.

rednik · 10-06-2011 07:56PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSnLU9nyFSA

Pi^2 · 10-06-2011 07:59PM

Cryopreservation - freeze them!

FGR · 10-06-2011 08:12PM

Pi^2 wrote: »

Cryopreservation - freeze them!

Won't we need to freeze Stallone too just in case?

flutterflye · 10-06-2011 08:14PM

There should be way more focus on the reasons why crimanals commit the crimes in the first place.

They already have all the statistics, so they know which groups are most likely to turn to crime.

But yet, they remain to put our money into tunnels and transport and queens and presidents to bring more people into the country, rather than making it a safer country which people would then wish to be anyway.

Even if/when there are preventative strategies in place, punishment is of course still needed.

The current one does not work.

The prisinors are labled as criminals, thus continue to act as such.

Time and time again, positive reinforcement gets better results than negative punishment.

I don't have any ideas for a viable alternative, but I do agree that the current system needs re-evaluating, and possible complete overhaul.

The_Minister · 10-06-2011 08:20PM

fluorescence wrote: »

Prison IS effective when used properly, hand in hand with hard labour and thorough rehabilitation. If they won't agree to whatever rehab is on offer then they remain imprisoned for longer (depending on crime). A prison cell should have 4 walls, a loo and a bed to sleep on, and that's it.

That would involve upgrading several Irish prisons.

Also, if you put people in those conditions for any length of time they will never be able to re-integrate into society.

tmcw · 10-06-2011 08:22PM

Pauleta wrote: »

If i were leader of the nation, my idea of prison would be people chained to walls in the pitch dark 24/7, with a loaf of bread and some water as their daily rations. I would also have Guantanamo Bay style prisons for lesser offenders and well behaved prisoners.

You don't need to be a leader of a nation to do that; just a basement with some good soundproofing. A project for the weekend...

Fluorescence · 10-06-2011 08:38PM

The_Minister wrote: »

That would involve upgrading several Irish prisons.

Also, if you put people in those conditions for any length of time they will never be able to re-integrate into society.

If they were spending a good deal of their time in rehabilitory sessions and labour sites, I think much good would come of their prison stint. Certainly much more so than is happening now.

EarlERizer · 10-06-2011 08:42PM

tmcw wrote: »

You don't need to be a leader of a nation to do that; just a basement with some good soundproofing. A project for the weekend...

Thank you Mr Fritz !

Seriously though, we need something like National Service for teenagers coming out of school, a couple of years National Service would make decent law abiding civilised young men & women out of them thus reducing the risk of them becoming criminals.

Failing that, for those that break laws we could have 'boot camps' no nonsense military style correctional facilities , to re-align the offenders civil duties as a member of society.

Or....and this is a long shot ...........we could all try to be better parents and teach our children right from wrong and help turn them into upstanding decent members of society

,after all we've all got a role to play.

Kids blame parents, parents blame the schools,the schools blame the parents, parents blame the system,the system blames funding or lack there of,the poor blame the rich,the rich blame the poor etc etc ad nauseum.......and nothing changes nothing improves and all that becomes of it is argument material for the shower of corrupt politicians to use to secure your votes!

So i guess, ultimately, 'the best alternative to jail' is to create a uptopian society where there is no need for crime/prevention/jail:)

Sunnyisland · 10-06-2011 08:50PM

EarlERizer wrote: »

Or....and this is a long shot ...........we could all try to be better parents and teach our children right from wrong and help turn them into upstanding decent members of society ,after all we've all got a role to play.

Kids blame parents, parents blame the schools,the schools blame the parents, parents blame the system,the system blames funding or lack there of,the poor blame the rich,the rich blame the poor etc etc ad nauseum.......and nothing changes nothing improves and all that becomes of it is argument material for the shower of corrupt politicians to use to secure your votes!

So i guess, ultimately, 'the best alternative to jail' is to create a uptopian society where there is no need for crime/prevention/jail:)

That should work

Guy:Incognito · 10-06-2011 10:56PM

Seachmall wrote: »

I think public (or private) property is a valid choice .

No its not. Your own private property, yes, someone elses or public property no. Theres no artistic merit in valdalising someone elses property.

Guy:Incognito · 10-06-2011 11:00PM

flutterflye wrote: »

There should be way more focus on the reasons why crimanals commit the crimes in the first place.

They already have all the statistics, so they know which groups are most likely to turn to crime.

But yet, they remain to put our money into tunnels and transport and queens and presidents to bring more people into the country, rather than making it a safer country which people would then wish to be anyway.
.

So stop spending taxpayers hard earned money improving stuff for them and spend it appeasing scumbags? Bollocks. Greed drives most of them to do what they do so nothing short of giving them a few million to go live quietly is going to solve it.

Its this sort of wrap the poor loves up in cotton wool because its not their fault rubbish that has things in the state they are in.

The_Minister wrote: »

Also, if you put people in those conditions for any length of time they will never be able to re-integrate into society.

Where as now they have it nice and easy so they can transition straight back to lawbreakign without the need for an adjustment period. Thats the ones that actually stop their criminal activity once inside of course. Others continue as was.

Could we not just start a mutually convenient semi fake perpetual war with the UK where our career criminals and theirs are used against each other as cannon fodder in a field somewhere ?

flutterflye · 10-06-2011 11:04PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

So stop spending taxpayers hard earned money improving stuff for them and spend it appeasing scumbags? Bollocks. Greed drives most of them to do what they do so nothing short of giving them a few million to go live quietly is going to solve it.

Its this sort of wrap the poor loves up in cotton wool because its not their fault rubbish that has things in the state they are in.

Right you are sir.

You seem to have read something into my post that wasn't there.

Seems to happen a fair bit on these boards.

Alternatives to jail ?

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