Building regulation regarding window restrictors

Mellor · 10-06-2011 03:35AM

Gulliver wrote: »

Hmmm. My supplier (D) just said "they're not needed for tilt and turn windows" and I took them at their word.

So our Southern friends put them on their tilt and turns?

That is true, if and only if, the tilt mechanism had priority. This is basically a built in restrictor, and a child (who can't operate a restrictor) can't operate the turn mechanism.

If the turn is priority, they are required.

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 10:11AM

First post in this thread, and where to start????.....

In my opinion there is no contradiction in the regs. Remember that a bedroom window is an alternative means of escape in case of fire. The first means of escape is always through the main stairwell. I think the reasons behind the regs have been outlined well enough here and accepted by most.

Secondly, it never ceases to amaze me how many companies who supply windows in the irish market do not comprehend or are even aware of irish regulations. I used to have problems years ago with solo guys making windows.... but in many cases here we are talking about established companies. Restrictors can be added onto most windows with minimal of fuss.

Tilt and turn automatically comply because the "tilt" is the 100mm restricted opening, and the "turn" is the follow-on movement that can manually open the window.

sas · 10-06-2011 11:10AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Tilt and turn automatically comply because the "tilt" is the 100mm restricted opening, and the "turn" is the follow-on movement that can manually open the window.

I've stated this already but to reiterate:
Mine open first, tilt second.
Confirmed with a different german window company and again they open first, tilt second.
Both windows use hardware by 2 different companies.

Waiting on responses from 2 more owners of different foreign windows.

This tilt first, open second may only be a feature of Irish manufactured windows in response to the regs.

Gulliver · 10-06-2011 11:12AM

Mellor wrote: »

That is true, if and only if, the tilt mechanism had priority. This is basically a built in restrictor, and a child (who can't operate a restrictor) can't operate the turn mechanism.

If the turn is priority, they are required.

sydthebeat wrote: »

...

Tilt and turn automatically comply because the "tilt" is the 100mm restricted opening, and the "turn" is the follow-on movement that can manually open the window.

Great to hear this confirmed, I was starting to think I was a gullible lump for believing them!

As we can name suppliers, mine are triple glazed tilt and turn from Grady (hence the gray D in my earlier post, geddit?) Joinery in Charlestown and I'm very happy with them. Some grown-ups don't realise there is a second opening function, so I am happy enough that a child wouldn't either.

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 11:18AM

sas wrote: »

I've stated this already but to reiterate:
Mine open first, tilt second.
Confirmed with a different german window company and again they open first, tilt second.
Both windows use hardware by 2 different companies.

Waiting on responses from 2 more owners of different foreign windows.

This tilt first, open second may only be a feature of Irish manufactured windows in response to the regs.

Are you saying that when you turn the handle 90 deg it opens and when you turn it 180 deg it tilts?

if so id consider this compliant.
actually, id consider that more suitable than the tilt and turn version

sas · 10-06-2011 11:38AM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Are you saying that when you turn the handle 90 deg it opens and when you turn it 180 deg it tilts?

if so id consider this compliant.
actually, id consider that more suitable than the tilt and turn version

So we're all clear

Window fully closed at 6 o'clock
Window opens fully at 3 o'clock
Window tilts at 12 o'clock

I've confirmed with 4 german\austrian window owners and all 4 are like this.

With respect, I'm struggling to see how as it stands these can be compliant.

If a child attempts to open a window, it will open fully in the same way any window from 10 years ago would i.e they can fall out in exactly the manner the reg is there to protect against.

sas · 10-06-2011 11:49AM

Gulliver wrote: »

As we can name suppliers, mine are triple glazed tilt and turn from Grady (hence the gray D in my earlier post, geddit?) Joinery in Charlestown and I'm very happy with them. Some grown-ups don't realise there is a second opening function, so I am happy enough that a child wouldn't either.

Do me a favour and PM the name of the hardware manufacturer for your windows when you get a chance. The locks on the sash will be branded.

sinnerboy · 10-06-2011 11:56AM

this seems to work

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 11:57AM

sas wrote: »

So we're all clear

Window fully closed at 6 o'clock
Window opens fully at 3 o'clock
Window tilts at 12 o'clock

I've confirmed with 4 german\austrian window owners and all 4 are like this.

With respect, I'm struggling to see how as it stands these can be compliant.

If a child attempts to open a window, it will open fully in the same way any window from 10 years ago would i.e they can fall out in exactly the manner the reg is there to protect against.

The risk of a child falling out of a window is eternally higher if the window is already open. The restrictor allows the window to be open and also stops the child from falling out. This is the reason the restrictor came in.

The window handle will usually be approx 1.3 above floor level, in my opinion too high for a <6 yo child to reach and open. In your case it is extra difficult as the handle opens upwards rather than downwards in most cases. If the child is able to open this handle then IMHO the child is clever enough to know not to get up on the window cill. The height regulation of the openable section is the crux of this matter.

personally, i would not have a problem signing off this window

martinn123 · 10-06-2011 12:39PM

But......as I understand it a t/t window has two seperate, functions.

1. Tilt........window opens in, hinged at the bottom, i.e top of window opens in....fine it is restricted.

2. Turn....a seperate function window hinged at side....opens in.... no restriction.

Considering the two seperate functions, how does the window comply if no restrictor is fitted and user chooses function 2.

I accept height of handles from floor etc, but if the reg's assume a child could fall from any side hung open out window, what's the difference, with a side hung open in?? and why would you sign off on this.

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 12:42PM

martinn123 wrote: »

But......as I understand it a t/t window has two seperate, functions.

1. Tilt........window opens in, hinged at the bottom, i.e top of window opens in....fine it is restricted.

2. Turn....a seperate function window hinged at side....opens in.... no restriction.

Considering the two seperate functions, how does the window comply if no restrictor is fitted and user chooses function 2.

I accept height of handles from floor etc, but if the reg's assume a child could fall from any side hung open out window, what's the difference, with a side hung open in?? and why would you sign off on this.

because, if the operator just wants to open the window to "air out" a room then they use the tilt mechanism. If they want to get out or use the fully openable function, they will "turn" it.

why would some one completely open a window and leave it? and if they did, what use is the regs in the first place?

simples.

Edit:

Thinking about this again i can understand why people would be viewing it from the point of view of the child opening the window and falling out. Its my understanding that the need for the restrictor came from people opening windows, and then children climbing up and falling out. Therefore there was a need for a restrictor.
The use of a key is associated but different. It was parents paranoia that said their children will climb up, open the window, and fall out... so they locked the windows. There was also the misunderstanding that a key locked window somehow added to security.
Maybe ive a very simplistic view on this but i dont see any confusion or ambiguity at all in the regs, or in sas's case above...

martinn123 · 10-06-2011 01:00PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

because, if the operator just wants to open the window to "air out" a room then they use the tilt mechanism. If they want to get out or use the fully openable function, they will "turn" it.

Fine

why would some one completely open a window and leave it? and if they did, what use is the regs in the first place?

simples.

Suppose it depends on the number of horrible situations you can imaging regarding a child.
Assuming the Reg's only consider a situation that the child opens the window, by the handle may be a mistake.

Think of a child entering a room where the window has been left open for whatever reason. With the restrictor child cannot make the opening larger and fall, with no restrictor child can make opening larger and fall.

So my question is why you would be happy with a side hung opening window, with no restrictor, irrespective of any alternative function on that window.

Posted this before your Edit, but point remains

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 01:10PM

martinn123 wrote: »

So my question is why you would be happy with a side hung opening window, with no restrictor, irrespective of any alternative function on that window.

firstly, ive a 2, 5 and 7 yo at home and ive envisaged every conceivable horror scenario about falling out of windows. Ive also had a neighbours child fall from a first floor window when he was 4. I have arranged all the furniture in bedrooms in such a manner so as to make it extremely difficult for a child to climb up onto a window cill in my house.

To answer your question....
To have a fear of a child falling from a closed window you have to assume:
1. the child can climb up to the window cill, or gain access to the handle by other means
2. the child is astute and strong enough to operate a push button mechanism on the window and turn the handle..
3. the child is not astute enough to see the danger....

In my opinion the risk of 1 and 2 above decrease as the risk of 3 increases.. ie the younger the child the less able to reach and turn handle.
the older the child the great the awareness of the danger.

If the restrictor doesnt exist, and the window is even slightly open, the only 1. above must exist for the child to fall out.

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 01:15PM

martinn123 wrote: »

Think of a child entering a room where the window has been left open for whatever reason. With the restrictor child cannot make the opening larger and fall, with no restrictor child can make opening larger and fall.

exactly....

a side hung window with no restrictor, doesnt comply.
a side hung window, with a tilt function, complys because the tilt is the restriction!
are you asking should we legislate for an adults stupidity?

martinn123 · 10-06-2011 01:22PM

Sorry Syd I am not questioning any actions you have taken in the interest of your family's safety.

I suppose I am debating the Reg's, and thats all.

If the Regulation assume a window requires a restrictor, because a child may find it open, increase the opening and fall, then my only question is why you would sign off on such a window without a restrictor, as stated in your above post.............please do not assume this is a critism......merely a question........

Gulliver · 10-06-2011 01:26PM

sas wrote: »

Do me a favour and PM the name of the hardware manufacturer for your windows when you get a chance. The locks on the sash will be branded.

PM sent

sas · 10-06-2011 01:26PM

I'd like to stick my oar in again

From what I'm reading, I now interpret the restrictor requirement to be only required to cover the specific case where a child comes into a room and finds the window open.

Therefore an adult that opens the window is required to know that they should always tilt it if there is any possibility of a child being in the house while the window is open.

If a child is able to open the handle, the presence of a tilt function is irrelevant.

Note: My windows do not require a button press to move the handle.

We getting any closer to an understanding?

martinn123 · 10-06-2011 01:29PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

exactly....

a side hung window with no restrictor, doesnt comply.

I agree

a side hung window, with a tilt function, complys because the tilt is the restriction!

I disagree, the window has two seperate functions, so if the TURN function is selected, there is no restriction.

are you asking should we legislate for an adults stupidity?

OK now I am out of here, I have found in the past, debating with a Moderator has only one outcome.

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 01:40PM

martin, like any regs they are open to interpretation. I don't take your point as a criticism, and i completely understand your viewpoint.

I didn't say i would sign off a window without a restrictor. i said a window without a restrictor doesn't comply.

When it comes to tilt and turn windows, its my opinion that the tilt function is the restrictor and thus complies. Its my understanding that the need for a restrictor is predicated upon the fear that, when a window is open, a child may fall out. I don't accept that there is an overlying risk of a child opening a window and falling out. I would purport that if a child is able to climb to a window handle and open it then there's enough comprehension there to fiddle a restrictor open anyway. Its all about risk reduction. If every small child could be taught not to go near a window because its dangerous, then there would be no need for these regs at all, but in reality the risk remains... so its how we reduce this risk.

Others may have a different opinion and so be it.

to sas, yes that is my understanding.

The regs state that the window must be readily openable without the use of a key. So if yours doesnt have a push button type mechanism it, IMHO, still complies. The push button is an addition to reducing the risk.

Gulliver · 10-06-2011 01:41PM

martinn123 wrote: »

Sorry Syd I am not questioning any actions you have taken in the interest of your family's safety.

I suppose I am debating the Reg's, and thats all.

If the Regulation assume a window requires a restrictor, because a child may find it open, increase the opening and fall, then my only question is why you would sign off on such a window without a restrictor, as stated in your above post.............please do not assume this is a critism......merely a question........

This might help. In my case you turn the handle 90 degrees, the top of the window tilts in towards you. Now here's the tricky part that I have seen plenty of adults fail on - to open the window fully, you have to close it (properly) and turn the handle another 90 degrees. The window is now opening towards you. I think a child would have difficulty with this.

The regs won't help if an adult has left the window in the turn position anymore than if someone opened the restrictor and left it open.

muffler · 10-06-2011 01:43PM

martinn123 wrote: »

OK now I am out of here, I have found in the past, debating with a Moderator has only one outcome.

A fast learner

No, you're fine. Post away as its just an ongoing general discussion about a specific product. We (mods) are all posters/contributors here but when we do give instructions or directions then we expect people to sit up and listen.

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 01:44PM

martinn123 wrote: »

OK now I am out of here, I have found in the past, debating with a Moderator has only one outcome.

whats wrong with debating? im not forcing my viewpoint onto anyone, im arguing a point with you!?

im still making a valid point regarding stupidity. If an adult knows there is a function on their window to restrict its opening, why would they open it fully and leave it, thus serious increasing risk of a child falling out and, blatantly, negating any restrictor regulation anyway!!
the same argument can be made as to why an adult would open a window, undo the restrictor, and walk away leaving it open. You cannot legislate for stupidity!

muffler · 10-06-2011 01:45PM

and wait 'til I get my hands on sas for posting this hot potato :eek:

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 01:47PM

Gulliver wrote: »

The regs won't help if an adult has left the window in the turn position anymore than if someone opened the restrictor and left it open.

nuff said

martinn123 · 10-06-2011 01:55PM

muffler wrote: »

A fast learner

No, you're fine. Post away as its just an ongoing general discussion about a specific product. We (mods) are all posters/contributors here but when we do give instructions or directions then we expect people to sit up and listen.

Thanks muffler,OK I will give it one more go................Do we agree that a t/t window has two SEPERATE functions as kindly outlined by Gulliver.................So a standard window requires a restrictor in case the window is left open it would require a really stupid adult to remove the restrictor...........A t/t window where the TURN function is selected should have a restrictor for the same reason, as the TILT function is inoperable, and is not acting as a restrictor in any way....................So to accept a t/t window as compliant without a restrictor in the Turn mechanism in my view is not correct.

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 02:22PM

martinn123 wrote: »

A t/t window where the TURN function is selected should have a restrictor for the same reason, as the TILT function is inoperable, and is not acting as a restrictor in any way....................So to accept a t/t window as compliant without a restrictor in the Turn mechanism in my view is not correct.

On that we would disagree.

i dont know why your bringing "function" into it.

By that logic a standard window has two functions as well, one with the restrictor and one without. I dont agree that you can simply disregard the "tilt" function of a window.

i think you need to focus in on why you need a restrictor in the first place.

martinn123 · 10-06-2011 02:47PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

On that we would disagree.

Obviously

i dont know why your bringing "function" into it.

Because the window has two seperate ways to open, either Tilt OR Turn

By that logic a standard window has two functions as well, one with the restrictor and one without. I dont agree that you can simply disregard the "tilt" function of a window.

I am not disregarding the tilt function, but I am stating its a seperate function.The Reg's state.....opening window...fit a restrictor...In My Opinion, Turn option selected....opening window...fit a restrictor

i think you need to focus in on why you need a restrictor in the first place.

I am debating the Reg's in relation to a product, not why the Reg exists, I fully understand why the regulation was introduced.........following too many bad accidents

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 02:52PM

The opening section of the window should be
secured by means of fastenings which are readily
openable from the inside and should be fitted
with safety restrictors. Safety restrictors can be
either an integral part of the window operating
gear or separate items of hardware which can be
fitted to a window at the time of manufacture or
at installation. Restrictors should operate so that
they limit the initial movement of an opening
section to not more than 100 mm. Lockable
handles or restrictors, which can only be
released by removable keys or other tools,
should not be fitted to window opening sections.

do you:

1. consider that the "tilt" function is not

an integral part of the window operating gear

?

2. consider the tilt function doesnt exist as

The opening section of the window

?

2. consider the tilt to

limit the initial movement of an opening
section to not more than 100 mm

?

sydthebeat · 10-06-2011 02:53PM

martinn123 wrote: »

....Tilt OR Turn....

being pedantic, its Tilt AND Turn

martinn123 · 10-06-2011 03:04PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

do you:

1. consider that the "tilt" function is not ?

2. consider the tilt function doesnt exist as ?

2. consider the tilt to ?

My last word...............No......to all of the above........when the Turn ''function'' is selected.............Yes .......to all of the above......when the Tilt ''function'' is selected.....................Stupid adult opens window, on Turn......child enters room.....opens window fully and falls.......that's why they introduced the reg........................I thing we have done this to death ( obviously no pun intended ).

Building regulation regarding window restrictors

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