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Building regulation regarding window restrictors

  • 05-06-2011 10:32pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭


    Is it a legal requirement that upstairs windows (under certain circumstances) are fitted with restricters to prevent the windows opening more than 100mm?

    I full appreciate that it makes perfect sense to avoid the kids throwing themselves out the window.

    Struggling to find anything concrete online.

    As usual, I'm very grateful for any help.

    SAS


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,550 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Section 1.5.6. (e) Technical Guidance Document B
    The opening section of the window should be
    secured by means of fastenings which are readily
    openable from the inside and should be fitted
    with safety restrictors. Safety restrictors can be
    either an integral part of the window operating
    gear or separate items of hardware which can be
    fitted to a window at the time of manufacture or
    at installation. Restrictors should operate so that
    they limit the initial movement of an opening
    section to not more than 100 mm. Lockable
    handles or restrictors, which can only be
    released by removable keys or other tools,
    should not be fitted to window opening sections.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    muffler wrote: »

    So could lockable handles that keep the window fully closed be used? The assumption being that the key is a permanent part of the lock.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,550 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    sas wrote: »
    So could lockable handles that keep the window fully closed be used? The assumption being that the key is a permanent part of the lock.
    Well, unless you plan to glue the key into the lock you wont find this type of system available anywhere :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 473 ✭✭BigGeorge


    Is there a BS/EN for such a restrictor design?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    There is a BS referenced to this one. This is the type I've seen most often. You go to open the window and it stops until you disengage this chappy. ( Can be done easily by hand )


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭heinbloed


    There is no EN standard for something the like.
    I saw these things the first time in Ireland.

    A "guideline" - be it technical or whatever - is by no means legally binding. Guidelines are for the blind. The others stick to the building regulations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    Ok, so are restrictors legally required or not?

    I'm not familiar with the relationship between tgd and building regulations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,550 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    heinbloed wrote: »
    There is no EN standard for something the like.
    I saw these things the first time in Ireland.

    A "guideline" - be it technical or whatever - is by no means legally binding. Guidelines are for the blind. The others stick to the building regulations.
    Ignore that post ^. Sarcasm at it's worst.

    The TGD's will give you an example of how to comply with building regs but do not necessarily rule out alternative products/methods.

    Restrictors of some sort have to be fitted to comply with building regs - Technical Guidance Document B outlines, the rule, the reasoning and an example. Should you choose to opt for an alternative method of compliance then you need to show proof of compliance if required by Building Control and/or Fire Dept.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,900 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    heinbloed wrote: »
    There is no EN standard for something the like.
    I saw these things the first time in Ireland.

    A "guideline" - be it technical or whatever - is by no means legally binding. Guidelines are for the blind. The others stick to the building regulations.

    Terrible post that's really rather ignorant.


    The TGDs are guideline on how to comply with the law. There are other routes permitted for many areas, but I fail to see where they apply regarding restrictors. Seeing as there is also a requiremnet for escape windows, each of thes require a restrictor. I cannot think of a single way to comply with the law without them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,494 ✭✭✭kayos


    Mellor wrote: »
    There are other routes permitted for many areas, but I fail to see where they apply regarding restrictors. Seeing as there is also a requiremnet for escape windows, each of thes require a restrictor. I cannot think of a single way to comply with the law without them.

    I was thinking that was one of the regs. That upstairs you need windows that people can get out of in the case of fire etc. makes no sense that you would have to fit a device that prevents those windows opening enough for people to get out.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    kayos wrote: »
    I was thinking that was one of the regs. That upstairs you need windows that people can get out of in the case of fire etc. makes no sense that you would have to fit a device that prevents those windows opening enough for people to get out.


    It seems a bit confusing, but maybe thats just me......... I have seldom seen these restrictors fitted as the Reg's concerning Fire Escape is usually quoted......... my understanding is that the opening has to be of a minimum size....and the hinge allow the window to open past 90deg.... so the restrictor would appear to go against this rule.......can someone clarify?

    In addition handles have been mentioned........I assume in a bedroom the handle has to be non locking, i.e no key just push button......am I correct?

    In UK they use a luminous button so that the handle can be found in the dark/ smoke etc.

    Have to admit I am confused


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭Gulliver


    martinn123 wrote: »
    It seems a bit confusing, but maybe thats just me......... I have seldom seen these restrictors fitted as the Reg's concerning Fire Escape is usually quoted......... my understanding is that the opening has to be of a minimum size....and the hinge allow the window to open past 90deg.... so the restrictor would appear to go against this rule.......can someone clarify?

    In addition handles have been mentioned........I assume in a bedroom the handle has to be non locking, i.e no key just push button......am I correct?

    In UK they use a luminous button so that the handle can be found in the dark/ smoke etc.

    Have to admit I am confused

    The restrictor is not to stop the window from opening fully, but to make it more difficult for a child to do so. First attempt opens the window 100mm, then you can reach in to the frame and pop the restrictor and it can open fully. Hopefully the child doesn't see you doing it or figure it out.

    The only thing I can think of is in case of a fire I'd be hoping to get to the kids because they wouldn't be able to open the window themselves and would be too panicked to take instructions on how to do it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    Gulliver wrote: »
    The restrictor is not to stop the window from opening fully, but to make it more difficult for a child to do so. First attempt opens the window 100mm, then you can reach in to the frame and pop the restrictor and it can open fully. Hopefully the child doesn't see you doing it or figure it out.

    The only thing I can think of is in case of a fire I'd be hoping to get to the kids because they wouldn't be able to open the window themselves and would be too panicked to take instructions on how to do it.

    Thanks for clarifying that, seems the requirment is well founded to stop children opening a window and falling out, but as you describe how do they escape in a fire situation.....to me its one regulation working in contradiction of another.Question.....do these regs apply to new build only or to replacment....and from what date.......my home was completed a few years ago, I do not have the restrictors, yet I got all the Certs required.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    I agree the regs are conflicting if not confusing here. Bear in mind that means of escape windows also have requirements for the cill height not to be too low together with minimum size of opening. Max 800mm floor to cill.

    A very difficult case in point is the attic conversion for which Part B dictates a min distance from window cill to roof edge. (1700mm) Recognizing this Part B (Fire) allows a reduction of the permissible floor to cill dim of 600mm to such windows. When you see this in real life it IS scary. The risk of falling is all too evident. And we still have Part K ( stairs + guarding / protection from falls ) requiring all openings within less then 800mm from the floor to be guarded. A compromise of my own is to have fitted across the opening an easily removable section of handrail at 800mm high. ( Not elegant) .

    Now the following is a classic case of do as I say not as I do. My little twins were a pair of Spidermen. I saw the risk of finding them splatted on my rear patio far more immediate than the risk of fire. So I locked the windows in their bedroom. ( 2nd hand house not compliant ) . If I had these restrictors fitted I would have used them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,550 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    martinn123 wrote: »
    to me its one regulation working in contradiction of another.
    It is. But its a juggling act so as to have the openings of sufficient size and height of floor but also to ensure safety for youngsters. Not a perfect solution but Im sure they would be open to all suggestions.

    martinn123 wrote: »
    Question.....do these regs apply to new build only or to replacment....and from what date.......my home was completed a few years ago, I do not have the restrictors, yet I got all the Certs required.
    The regs apply to all windows now - new build or replacement windows in an extension/refurb.

    I cant be sure of the date that they became a requirement but I think it was 2008


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    From Part B 2006 -
    Transitional Arrangements
    This document applies to the design of works, or buildings
    in which a material change of use takes place, where the
    works or the change of use commence or takes place, as
    the case may be on or after 1 June 2006 except where-
    (1) a planning application is made on or before 31 May
    2006 for planning permission or approval pursuant to
    the Planning and Development Act 2000 (No. 30 of
    2000), or
    (2) a notice pursuant to the provisions of Part 8 of the
    Planning and Development Regulations 2001 (No. 600
    of 2001) is published on or before 31 May 2006, or
    (3) a Fire Safety Certificate under the Building Control
    Regulations, 1997 has been granted on or before 31
    May 2006
    provided substantial work has been completed on or
    before 31 May 2009.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,900 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    kayos wrote: »
    I was thinking that was one of the regs. That upstairs you need windows that people can get out of in the case of fire etc. makes no sense that you would have to fit a device that prevents those windows opening enough for people to get out.
    that's not what it does, if if did it would breach the regs
    martinn123 wrote: »
    Thanks for clarifying that, seems the requirment is well founded to stop children opening a window and falling out, but as you describe how do they escape in a fire situation.....to me its one regulation working in contradiction of another.
    I disagree that they are in conflict.

    The restrictor regulation is there to prevent small children from falling out. The device itself is very simple.


    Any child who is too young to operate the restrictor, it far too young to be climbing out an escape window in case of a fire on their own. They simply wouldn't be physically able, its a c.3500 drop remember. If they are old enough to have the confidance, and strength to climb out, they be have no problem operating the restrictor.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    Mellor wrote: »


    The restrictor regulation is there to prevent small children from falling out. The device itself is very simple.


    Any child who is too young to operate the restrictor, it far too young to be climbing out an escape window in case of a fire on their own. They simply wouldn't be physically able, its a c.3500 drop remember. If they are old enough to have the confidance, and strength to climb out, they be have no problem operating the restrictor.

    Again thanks for the clarification....I seem to remember reading some background to these reg's and it mentioned with regard to the size of the opening it took into account the possible need for a fully equipted fire-fighter gaining access from outside........would the restrictor have any bearing on this ?

    I wonder how well known this Reg is if it refers to new build and renewal for the past few years......... anyone who has had windows changed recently........did this restrictor feature???......other than the OP....

    I supplied windows 2 yrs ago for a renovation to a youth hostel, to an Arch spec..........no mention of restrictors, about 12 bedrooms involved....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,550 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    martinn123 wrote: »
    for a fully equipted fire-fighter gaining access from outside........would the restrictor have any bearing on this ?
    Nope. No effect at all as they can be easily released from either inside or outside......in fact a slight bit easier from the outside.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭archtech


    martinn123 wrote: »
    I supplied windows 2 yrs ago for a renovation to a youth hostel, to an Arch spec..........no mention of restrictors, about 12 bedrooms involved....

    As a youth hostel is a non domestic dwelling, it would/should have been subject to a fire safety certificate and generally speaking the fire safety strategy of most buildings, would normally not involve means of escape via escape windows.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    archtech wrote: »
    As a youth hostel is a non domestic dwelling, it would/should have been subject to a fire safety certificate and generally speaking the fire safety strategy of most buildings, would normally not involve means of escape via escape windows.

    That makes sense, as I also supplied fire escape doors........Thanks.....So the restrictors apply only in the residential market, and on new build and replacement, ........so to repeat my outstanding question........Anyone get new windows recently........were there restrictors on the bedrooms??? ( I'll assume all new build, under Architectural Inspection comply )..........Not sure if there will be many replies in this Forum, so I might post a thread in DIY, where there are lots of posts on replacement windows.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    The guys not from Ulster , Leinster or Connaught ;) have been fitting them as standard for some years now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    The guys not from Ulster , Leinster or Connaught ;) have been fitting them as standard for some years now.

    Well Done.........But are they fitted Globaly........are they Glazed in all Weather....... Are they fitted by members of the Upper House.......or if you buy your Frames direct......are they Developed in the New World, ......how do they Apeer.........finally are they a Fair Co.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭Gulliver


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Well Done.........But are they fitted Globaly........are they Glazed in all Weather....... Are they fitted by members of the Upper House.......or if you buy your Frames direct......are they Developed in the New World, ......how do they Apeer.........finally are they a Fair Co.

    Speak English! You're code-talking about sex, right?:D

    On topic though, is there any reason why these don't appear on tilt and turn windows? Is it because the first mechanism is the tilt and the child may not be able to figure out the turn part?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    Gulliver wrote: »
    Speak English! You're code-talking about sex, right?:D

    On topic though, is there any reason why these don't appear on tilt and turn windows? Is it because the first mechanism is the tilt and the child may not be able to figure out the turn part?

    The tilt isn't the first mechanism on mine. Mine are german.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭Gulliver


    sas wrote: »
    The tilt isn't the first mechanism on mine. Mine are german.

    Oh. Well that blows my theory out of the water. Are there restrictors on your windows?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    Gulliver wrote: »
    Oh. Well that blows my theory out of the water. Are there restrictors on your windows?

    Never ceases to amaze me the timing on boards!

    I've just had a phone call on this.

    My window company can't supply a restrictor as used by the crowd down south.

    Currently they (Irish agent) have modified a restrictor that comes with the window to prevent it opening passed 90 degrees i.e. it now prevents it opening passed approx 20 degrees. There is a question mark over the modification though because it may cause window damage over time if not reset perfectly (which is a manual task) after it is opened.

    They also have the following option.
    There is a handle available that will (as you described) tilt the window first. This was apparently developed for german schools. The opening mechanism is then protected by a key, which means it can't be used in this instance either.

    It would appear (???) that this particular restrictor is a requirement of this part of Europe only.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭Gulliver


    sas wrote: »
    Never ceases to amaze me the timing on boards!

    I've just had a phone call on this.

    My window company can't supply a restrictor as used by the crowd down south.

    Currently they (Irish agent) have modified a restrictor that comes with the window to prevent it opening passed 90 degrees i.e. it now prevents it opening passed approx 20 degrees. There is a question mark over the modification though because it may cause window damage over time if not reset perfectly (which is a manual task) after it is opened.

    They also have the following option.
    There is a handle available that will (as you described) tilt the window first. This was apparently developed for german schools. The opening mechanism is then protected by a key, which means it can't be used in this instance either.

    It would appear (???) that this particular restrictor is a requirement of this part of Europe only.

    Hmmm. My supplier (D) just said "they're not needed for tilt and turn windows" and I took them at their word.

    So our Southern friends put them on their tilt and turns?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    Gulliver wrote: »
    So our Southern friends put them on their tilt and turns?

    Sorry my bad, I was referring to their standard windows.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    The mods have consulted and whereas to protect the forum from blatant promotion or advertising of products , naming companies is not permitted ..... in the context of this discussion , we have decided to relax the rule.

    So name away


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 39,900 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Gulliver wrote: »
    Hmmm. My supplier (D) just said "they're not needed for tilt and turn windows" and I took them at their word.

    So our Southern friends put them on their tilt and turns?

    That is true, if and only if, the tilt mechanism had priority. This is basically a built in restrictor, and a child (who can't operate a restrictor) can't operate the turn mechanism.

    If the turn is priority, they are required.


  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    First post in this thread, and where to start????.....

    In my opinion there is no contradiction in the regs. Remember that a bedroom window is an alternative means of escape in case of fire. The first means of escape is always through the main stairwell. I think the reasons behind the regs have been outlined well enough here and accepted by most.

    Secondly, it never ceases to amaze me how many companies who supply windows in the irish market do not comprehend or are even aware of irish regulations. I used to have problems years ago with solo guys making windows.... but in many cases here we are talking about established companies. Restrictors can be added onto most windows with minimal of fuss.

    Tilt and turn automatically comply because the "tilt" is the 100mm restricted opening, and the "turn" is the follow-on movement that can manually open the window.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Tilt and turn automatically comply because the "tilt" is the 100mm restricted opening, and the "turn" is the follow-on movement that can manually open the window.

    I've stated this already but to reiterate:
    Mine open first, tilt second.
    Confirmed with a different german window company and again they open first, tilt second.
    Both windows use hardware by 2 different companies.

    Waiting on responses from 2 more owners of different foreign windows.

    This tilt first, open second may only be a feature of Irish manufactured windows in response to the regs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭Gulliver


    Mellor wrote: »
    That is true, if and only if, the tilt mechanism had priority. This is basically a built in restrictor, and a child (who can't operate a restrictor) can't operate the turn mechanism.

    If the turn is priority, they are required.
    sydthebeat wrote: »

    ...

    Tilt and turn automatically comply because the "tilt" is the 100mm restricted opening, and the "turn" is the follow-on movement that can manually open the window.

    Great to hear this confirmed, I was starting to think I was a gullible lump for believing them!

    As we can name suppliers, mine are triple glazed tilt and turn from Grady (hence the gray D in my earlier post, geddit?) Joinery in Charlestown and I'm very happy with them. Some grown-ups don't realise there is a second opening function, so I am happy enough that a child wouldn't either.


  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    sas wrote: »
    I've stated this already but to reiterate:
    Mine open first, tilt second.
    Confirmed with a different german window company and again they open first, tilt second.
    Both windows use hardware by 2 different companies.

    Waiting on responses from 2 more owners of different foreign windows.

    This tilt first, open second may only be a feature of Irish manufactured windows in response to the regs.

    Are you saying that when you turn the handle 90 deg it opens and when you turn it 180 deg it tilts?

    if so id consider this compliant.
    actually, id consider that more suitable than the tilt and turn version


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Are you saying that when you turn the handle 90 deg it opens and when you turn it 180 deg it tilts?

    if so id consider this compliant.
    actually, id consider that more suitable than the tilt and turn version

    So we're all clear :D

    Window fully closed at 6 o'clock
    Window opens fully at 3 o'clock
    Window tilts at 12 o'clock

    I've confirmed with 4 german\austrian window owners and all 4 are like this.

    With respect, I'm struggling to see how as it stands these can be compliant.

    If a child attempts to open a window, it will open fully in the same way any window from 10 years ago would i.e they can fall out in exactly the manner the reg is there to protect against.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    Gulliver wrote: »
    As we can name suppliers, mine are triple glazed tilt and turn from Grady (hence the gray D in my earlier post, geddit?) Joinery in Charlestown and I'm very happy with them. Some grown-ups don't realise there is a second opening function, so I am happy enough that a child wouldn't either.

    Do me a favour and PM the name of the hardware manufacturer for your windows when you get a chance. The locks on the sash will be branded.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    this seems to work


  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    sas wrote: »
    So we're all clear :D

    Window fully closed at 6 o'clock
    Window opens fully at 3 o'clock
    Window tilts at 12 o'clock

    I've confirmed with 4 german\austrian window owners and all 4 are like this.

    With respect, I'm struggling to see how as it stands these can be compliant.

    If a child attempts to open a window, it will open fully in the same way any window from 10 years ago would i.e they can fall out in exactly the manner the reg is there to protect against.

    The risk of a child falling out of a window is eternally higher if the window is already open. The restrictor allows the window to be open and also stops the child from falling out. This is the reason the restrictor came in.

    The window handle will usually be approx 1.3 above floor level, in my opinion too high for a <6 yo child to reach and open. In your case it is extra difficult as the handle opens upwards rather than downwards in most cases. If the child is able to open this handle then IMHO the child is clever enough to know not to get up on the window cill. The height regulation of the openable section is the crux of this matter.

    personally, i would not have a problem signing off this window ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    But......as I understand it a t/t window has two seperate, functions.

    1. Tilt........window opens in, hinged at the bottom, i.e top of window opens in....fine it is restricted.

    2. Turn....a seperate function window hinged at side....opens in.... no restriction.

    Considering the two seperate functions, how does the window comply if no restrictor is fitted and user chooses function 2.

    I accept height of handles from floor etc, but if the reg's assume a child could fall from any side hung open out window, what's the difference, with a side hung open in?? and why would you sign off on this.


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  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    martinn123 wrote: »
    But......as I understand it a t/t window has two seperate, functions.

    1. Tilt........window opens in, hinged at the bottom, i.e top of window opens in....fine it is restricted.

    2. Turn....a seperate function window hinged at side....opens in.... no restriction.

    Considering the two seperate functions, how does the window comply if no restrictor is fitted and user chooses function 2.

    I accept height of handles from floor etc, but if the reg's assume a child could fall from any side hung open out window, what's the difference, with a side hung open in?? and why would you sign off on this.

    because, if the operator just wants to open the window to "air out" a room then they use the tilt mechanism. If they want to get out or use the fully openable function, they will "turn" it.

    why would some one completely open a window and leave it? and if they did, what use is the regs in the first place?

    simples.

    Edit:

    Thinking about this again i can understand why people would be viewing it from the point of view of the child opening the window and falling out. Its my understanding that the need for the restrictor came from people opening windows, and then children climbing up and falling out. Therefore there was a need for a restrictor.
    The use of a key is associated but different. It was parents paranoia that said their children will climb up, open the window, and fall out... so they locked the windows. There was also the misunderstanding that a key locked window somehow added to security.
    Maybe ive a very simplistic view on this but i dont see any confusion or ambiguity at all in the regs, or in sas's case above...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    because, if the operator just wants to open the window to "air out" a room then they use the tilt mechanism. If they want to get out or use the fully openable function, they will "turn" it.
    Fine
    why would some one completely open a window and leave it? and if they did, what use is the regs in the first place?

    simples.

    Suppose it depends on the number of horrible situations you can imaging regarding a child.
    Assuming the Reg's only consider a situation that the child opens the window, by the handle may be a mistake.

    Think of a child entering a room where the window has been left open for whatever reason. With the restrictor child cannot make the opening larger and fall, with no restrictor child can make opening larger and fall.

    So my question is why you would be happy with a side hung opening window, with no restrictor, irrespective of any alternative function on that window.

    Posted this before your Edit, but point remains


  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    martinn123 wrote: »
    So my question is why you would be happy with a side hung opening window, with no restrictor, irrespective of any alternative function on that window.

    firstly, ive a 2, 5 and 7 yo at home and ive envisaged every conceivable horror scenario about falling out of windows. Ive also had a neighbours child fall from a first floor window when he was 4. I have arranged all the furniture in bedrooms in such a manner so as to make it extremely difficult for a child to climb up onto a window cill in my house.

    To answer your question....
    To have a fear of a child falling from a closed window you have to assume:
    1. the child can climb up to the window cill, or gain access to the handle by other means
    2. the child is astute and strong enough to operate a push button mechanism on the window and turn the handle..
    3. the child is not astute enough to see the danger....

    In my opinion the risk of 1 and 2 above decrease as the risk of 3 increases.. ie the younger the child the less able to reach and turn handle.
    the older the child the great the awareness of the danger.

    If the restrictor doesnt exist, and the window is even slightly open, the only 1. above must exist for the child to fall out.


  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Think of a child entering a room where the window has been left open for whatever reason. With the restrictor child cannot make the opening larger and fall, with no restrictor child can make opening larger and fall.

    exactly....

    a side hung window with no restrictor, doesnt comply.
    a side hung window, with a tilt function, complys because the tilt is the restriction!
    are you asking should we legislate for an adults stupidity?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    Sorry Syd I am not questioning any actions you have taken in the interest of your family's safety.

    I suppose I am debating the Reg's, and thats all.

    If the Regulation assume a window requires a restrictor, because a child may find it open, increase the opening and fall, then my only question is why you would sign off on such a window without a restrictor, as stated in your above post.............please do not assume this is a critism......merely a question........


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭Gulliver


    sas wrote: »
    Do me a favour and PM the name of the hardware manufacturer for your windows when you get a chance. The locks on the sash will be branded.

    PM sent


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    I'd like to stick my oar in again :D

    From what I'm reading, I now interpret the restrictor requirement to be only required to cover the specific case where a child comes into a room and finds the window open.

    Therefore an adult that opens the window is required to know that they should always tilt it if there is any possibility of a child being in the house while the window is open.

    If a child is able to open the handle, the presence of a tilt function is irrelevant.

    Note: My windows do not require a button press to move the handle.

    We getting any closer to an understanding?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    exactly....

    a side hung window with no restrictor, doesnt comply.
    I agree
    a side hung window, with a tilt function, complys because the tilt is the restriction!
    I disagree, the window has two seperate functions, so if the TURN function is selected, there is no restriction.
    are you asking should we legislate for an adults stupidity?

    OK now I am out of here, I have found in the past, debating with a Moderator has only one outcome.


  • Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    martin, like any regs they are open to interpretation. I don't take your point as a criticism, and i completely understand your viewpoint.

    I didn't say i would sign off a window without a restrictor. i said a window without a restrictor doesn't comply.

    When it comes to tilt and turn windows, its my opinion that the tilt function is the restrictor and thus complies. Its my understanding that the need for a restrictor is predicated upon the fear that, when a window is open, a child may fall out. I don't accept that there is an overlying risk of a child opening a window and falling out. I would purport that if a child is able to climb to a window handle and open it then there's enough comprehension there to fiddle a restrictor open anyway. Its all about risk reduction. If every small child could be taught not to go near a window because its dangerous, then there would be no need for these regs at all, but in reality the risk remains... so its how we reduce this risk.

    Others may have a different opinion and so be it.

    to sas, yes that is my understanding.

    The regs state that the window must be readily openable without the use of a key. So if yours doesnt have a push button type mechanism it, IMHO, still complies. The push button is an addition to reducing the risk.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭Gulliver


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Sorry Syd I am not questioning any actions you have taken in the interest of your family's safety.

    I suppose I am debating the Reg's, and thats all.

    If the Regulation assume a window requires a restrictor, because a child may find it open, increase the opening and fall, then my only question is why you would sign off on such a window without a restrictor, as stated in your above post.............please do not assume this is a critism......merely a question........

    This might help. In my case you turn the handle 90 degrees, the top of the window tilts in towards you. Now here's the tricky part that I have seen plenty of adults fail on - to open the window fully, you have to close it (properly) and turn the handle another 90 degrees. The window is now opening towards you. I think a child would have difficulty with this.

    The regs won't help if an adult has left the window in the turn position anymore than if someone opened the restrictor and left it open.


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