What to tell a child who asks? Afterlife etc.

CerebralCortex · 09-06-2011 03:37PM

jank wrote: »

So you don't want to argue the point at all?

Harvard, Princeton, Notre Dame, Trinity, Cambridge, Oxford and hundreds of others of the world's top learning centers have been founded by religious orders or clergymen.

These are the facts. Now I know saying ANYTHING even remotely good about religion is like a lightning rod in this forum. I have made my position clear on this issue but to have a world view where 4000 years of history where every single event where there was any affiliation with religion or religious people is ALL BAD is a world view that is just as misguided where it was ALL GOOD.

If one made a list of the top 50 schools in Ireland I would be confident that the vast majority of them would have been founded by religious orders (sure most of them don't have any nuns or brothers left teaching in them so they are pretty secular anyway..). As I said lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I know ideologically that might be hard for some to hear.

The point is that in a secular state with equality, those who pay taxes and expect a theologically impartial government should expect those taxes to go on secular schools and rightly so. I think Ireland is neither secular nor theologically impartial.

pH · 09-06-2011 04:55PM

jank wrote: »

If one made a list of the top 50 schools in Ireland I would be confident that the vast majority of them would have been founded by religious orders (sure most of them don't have any nuns or brothers left teaching in them so they are pretty secular anyway..). As I said lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I know ideologically that might be hard for some to hear.

I'm sure I could produce a list of great schools, hospitals, museums etc created and founded under various royal charters (even here in Ireland there are a few), is this in any way an argument for restoring a monarchy and nobility here?

Dades · 09-06-2011 05:10PM

jank wrote: »

So going back to the point, the parents should have a right to choose to send their kids to a secular school or a religious school. If someone has an easier answer that does NOT curtails individuals civil rights then I am all ears... otherwise, there is no argument.

Should the "right to send your child" not imply the availability of such a school? Because if it does then those in Ireland that want a religious school have a lot more rights.

jank · 10-06-2011 02:19AM

CerebralCortex wrote: »

The point is that in a secular state with equality, those who pay taxes and expect a theologically impartial government should expect those taxes to go on secular schools and rightly so. .

Yes,I agree with that in principal but that was not what you were arguing some posts back....

You were arguing that it would cost too much for the state to have both religious schools and secular schools, where then I brought up the point that without religous schools being setup 200 odd years ago we would not have had the education ethos that we do in Ireland as the state didnt even pay for it anyway!

I think Ireland is neither secular nor theologically impartial

Well its not the most secular country in the world nor is it the most theist. So lets not play the "we are being victimised" card here. Ireland is a VERY free country by global standards.
The power of the church is premanently damaged (rightly so) but that is not to say that some people or should I say alot of people would like to keep some aspects of what the church did well in their soceity.

jank · 10-06-2011 02:22AM

pH wrote: »

I'm sure I could produce a list of great schools, hospitals, museums etc created and founded under various royal charters (even here in Ireland there are a few), is this in any way an argument for restoring a monarchy and nobility here?

Were the kings and lords in the classroom teaching or in the hospitals caring for sick patients? Apples and oranges.

jank · 10-06-2011 02:50AM

Dades wrote: »

Should the "right to send your child" not imply the availability of such a school? Because if it does then those in Ireland that want a religious school have a lot more rights.

Because there are more religious schools than secular.? Come on now, you are being obtuse with the argument.

So whats the answer, every census year open and close schools based the religion question? The ratio must keep in tune!!

If there is THAT a huge demand for secular schools then there would be schools like that setup. Can you point me to an instance where a secular school was not setup due to the state withholding funds due to idealogical objections??? I don't think that has happened because it is against the Constitution.

One just has to exam the explosion of the Gaelscoileanna over the last 25 years in Ireland. You build it, they will come.
Two things will happen or is already happening, some more secular schools will be built but religious schools will become more secular i.e offering students the option to drop out of religious classes etc. which is probably happening already.

There are plenty of things to worry about in a child's development and education rather than worrying if a child that attends a "St. Mary's" or a "St Vincents" turns out to be a fire breathing religious lunatic and runs off to join the Westboro Baptist Church.

Parents just want a good school that will offer good education and truns out well rounded young adults. It is well known, well in Cork anyway that the big comprehensive schools are nowhere near the standard and quality in terms of education of the other "religous" schools. If secular schools were so much better at that then you would see a huge demand for them.

Frankly, most people dont give a $hit!

What to tell a child who asks? Afterlife etc.

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