What to tell a child who asks? Afterlife etc.

eco2live

Hey all,

I am an recent Atheist but my wife is not. Today my 9 year olds best friends grandfather died suddenly. My daughter was consoling her friend with words such as "you will see him again" and "he will still be with you" etc. and it dawned on me that my daughter and her friend where getting comfort from such things.

We would all like to believe that there is an afterlife but I don't and I am firm in my own beliefs. I kind of resolved myself to the fact that I would talk to my daughter about these things when she gets a bit older. She is in a small country catholic school and made her communion last year.

My daughter still believes in Father Christmas as well and I don't see the harm in that if it brings a little magic into her life. The situation got me wondering what would I tell her when a close family member in my own family passes away? The truth is so hard to take for a child.

Any thoughts or experiences?

TheReverend

eco2live wrote: »

Hey all,

I am an recent Atheist but my wife is not. Today my 9 year olds best friends grandfather died suddenly. My daughter was consoling her friend with words such as "you will see him again" and "he will still be with you" etc. and it dawned on me that my daughter and her friend where getting comfort from such things.

We would all like to believe that there is an afterlife but I don't and I am firm in my own beliefs. I kind of resolved myself to the fact that I would talk to my daughter about these things when she gets a bit older. She is in a small country catholic school and made her communion last year.

My daughter still believes in Father Christmas as well and I don't see the harm in that if it brings a little magic into her life. The situation got me wondering what would I tell her when a close family member in my own family passes away? The truth is so hard to take for a child.

Any thoughts or experiences?

My little brother was asking about death and what happens after, I simply told him what different faiths and cultures believe and what I believe, parents weren't too happy about it at the time even though my mum is pretty much doest believe in any afterlife or god but still says she is a catholic.

Galvasean

Just show them that bit from the Lion King where Mustapha tells Kimba, I mean Simba, about the circle of life.

Amtmann

I would tell him what happens to the body, and phrase it in terms of energy going back into the earth and being recycled. Explain that that's where he came from too. If he asks what it feels like, tell him no one knows, but that it probably feels the same as it did for the billions of years before he was born: non-existence. Finally, you could tell him that some people believe in a god, but that there's no evidence for it.

Obviously you'd use gentle language and metaphors intelligible to a child.

Dave!

hmmmm it hasn't come up before for me, but I reckon if asked I'd start by asking where they think all their thoughts, memories, experiences, sensory input, etc., is processed. Once we've established that that's in the brain, I'll ask what do they remember from before their brain had developed. If they remember a past life then we're in trouble, but assuming the child remembers nothing, I'd probably then ask what do they think then happens once the brain has died. We should be able to reason that there's no more thoughts or memories once the brain is gone. Maybe then I'd steer towards some happier thoughts about how they're young and they have a whole life of different experiences, memories, love, etc., to go through, and that they only get one go at it, so make it count.

This is just what came to mind, maybe I'll broach the subject differently when it comes up in the future

robindch

eco2live wrote: »

My daughter still believes in Father Christmas as well and I don't see the harm in that if it brings a little magic into her life.

Santa at nine? I'd drop a hint or two, lest she mentions it to somebody at her school

eco2live wrote: »

The situation got me wondering what would I tell her when a close family member in my own family passes away?

The topic's come up with my kid a few times, and the answer's the same -- people are born, they live, they die, then they go into the ground to give birth to flowers and trees, while the living remember them. She gets it to the extent that she's asked to visit graveyards to see the plants and told me a few weeks back what she wants growing on hers (pink and yellow roses).

Not exactly a fun conversation I have to say, but hands down, it beats feeding kids bullshit.

btw, we don't use euphemisms like "pass away", "pass on" etc either -- just simple "die". No metaphors either. Just the facts. And she's fine with that.

AhSureTisGrand

She's lying to you about believing in Santa. Don't feel bad — you've raised a smart kid

eco2live

Thanks for your comments people. A new day brings a fresh outlook. It was a sad day yesterday and it seems a lot simpler today.

It all boils down to the truth of my Atheist beliefs. I will just be honest with her and tell her how I feel about things.

fatmammycat

Eco2live- when my friend's father died suddenly from a heart attack she explained to her children 8 and 12, that he had died and that it had been quickly and without pain. She said that while he was gone from this life he would remain with them for ever in their hearts and memories.
She let the children grieve and comforted them when they cried and spoke about her father whenever they asked- which the 8 year old did a lot.
She was in shock herself, but she said the open way they spoke about his loss seemed to help all of them in the long run. Best of luck to you and your family.

robindch

dead one wrote: »

But in another thread some one has said, atheist can kill their kids in order to survive or produce more kid. I am sorry to say but that someone has said.

dead-one -- do please try to contribute something that other people might enjoy reading.

Dades

The OP is looking for advice from a non-believer's perspective.

dead one's posts (and replies) have been deleted for being useless in the context of the thread.

seamus

My gut feeling is that it's harder to feed the kids the bull**** line and then retract it later on. That is, kids are hardier than most people imagine, and curiosity about death is a natural part of growing up. The Santa line is OK because most kids don't need to have it "retracted" and instead figure it out themselves. But the afterlife line may take years for them to figure it out themselves, if they figure it out at all. So you may have a tough time on your hands if you want to tell your child at 16 that you actually think there is no heaven and this is all there is.

In fact, most parents will describe to you their child getting upset about Mummy or Daddy dying and having to be told that it's not going to happen for a long, long time. This happens even if the child has been told that we all come back. So it stands to reason that kids will still pick up on the inherent uncertainty around death, no matter what bull they're fed.

Death is a natural part of life, all animals innately understand that it happens and many mammals have their own rituals around it. I don't see any reason why we should pretend to be exempt from it and protect our children from a fundamental unavoidable part of life.

You're born and then you die. The only thing that is a certainty in life. Why sugar coat it or pretend that it's something else?

AhSureTisGrand

Dades wrote: »

The OP is looking for advice from a non-believer's perspective.

dead one's posts (and replies) have been deleted for being useless in the context of the thread.

Zillah

Tell them that as your body fails you you feel like you're falling through a great black screaming wind toward infinite night, and then just as you hit the bottom you vanish forever and ever. Then send them to bed.

krudler

Galvasean wrote: »

Just show them that bit from the Lion King where Mustapha tells Kimba, I mean Simba, about the circle of life.

your granny becomes the earth, and we eat vegetables, which are grown in the earth, so those carrots you ate for dinner? thats your granny you ate. you monster.

krudler

Dades wrote: »

The OP is looking for advice from a non-believer's perspective.

dead one's posts (and replies) have been deleted for being useless in the context of the thread.

can you do this in all the threads he posts in from now on :pac:

Gregor Samsa

Our cat died and my daughter (2) asked what happened to him. I told her that he was very sick, that he died - which means he isn't a cat that can walk around any more and do all the things that cats do - that we put his body in the garden and planted a sunflower over it, and that while we won't see him again, we'll always remember him and be able to look at pictures of him, and we'll miss him, but remembering him will make us happy.

She recently asked about my mother (also deceased) "Is grandma dead like Scamper?". I explained it was exactly the same (although obviously we don't have her in the back garden).

Now, I know she's only 2, so she's not going to understand much about anything, but at least we've begun to cover the topic. I don't see the point in making up a story about the false hope of seeing someone again, when it's perfectly possible to explain death and comfort a child without resorting to fiction.

Beruthiel

eco2live wrote: »

The truth is so hard to take for a child.

When the child asks a question, they're ready for the answer.
When my daughter asked I just said something along the lines that some people believe X and some people believe Y and I believe Z. I would then leave her to make up her own mind.

wingnut32

eco2live wrote: »

Hey all,

I am an recent Atheist but my wife is not. Today my 9 year olds best friends grandfather died suddenly. My daughter was consoling her friend with words such as "you will see him again" and "he will still be with you" etc. and it dawned on me that my daughter and her friend where getting comfort from such things.

We would all like to believe that there is an afterlife but I don't and I am firm in my own beliefs. I kind of resolved myself to the fact that I would talk to my daughter about these things when she gets a bit older. She is in a small country catholic school and made her communion last year.

My daughter still believes in Father Christmas as well and I don't see the harm in that if it brings a little magic into her life. The situation got me wondering what would I tell her when a close family member in my own family passes away? The truth is so hard to take for a child.

Any thoughts or experiences?

My partners father died before christmas. My kids were extremely close to him as was my partner. My partner believes in god and the afterlife and told the kids the usual stuff.
I cant bring myself to tell them the truth as they are still young, the oldest is 8. We have agreed that in 2 -3 years I would give them my point of view and let them make up their own mind. I suppose its the best compromise the two of us could reach.

Its a tough one really particularly when the parents have different beliefs.

robindch

wingnut32 wrote: »

I cant bring myself to tell them the truth as they are still young

Why not?

wingnut32

robindch wrote: »

Why not?

My partner had a complete breakdown after her father died, now shes more religous than she ever was. She comforted the kids and TBH I didnt want to intefere, I talked to her a couple of weeks ago and this is what we have agreed. Ill tell them when I feel when the time is right..

There's two of us in the relationship so compromises have to be made, and I respect her and what she's going through.

nozzferrahhtoo

eco2live wrote: »

We would all like to believe that there is an afterlife

Speak for yourself, because I for one do not

The idea of a second eternal life to me is not appealing at any level... and on other levels the very concept of it is horrific.

I also feel it cheapens the sacrifice of those people in our history who have genuinely given their life for a cause or a person. In my eyes such sacrifice becomes meaningless if we imagine they are not giving the only life they have, but merely trading one for another. The Christians tells us for example that god "gave" us his only son. He did no such thing under the Christian system. At most he LENT us his son, for an insignificant amount of time. The Christian belief in afterlife makes meaningless the very sacrifice they themselves cherish.

It also cheapens the value of life here on this planet. Things become precious when they are rare. Those I love are precious in their rarity. Their transience is part of what makes them special. The concept of there being a second eternal life after this one reduces the worth of people in the here and now to nothing.

eco2live wrote: »

The situation got me wondering what would I tell her when a close family member in my own family passes away? The truth is so hard to take for a child.

Any thoughts or experiences?

I think you might underestimate the strength of children. They are capable of recovering from things much better than they get credit for. Their ability to deal with trauma or hardship can often put some of us to shame. When you say "the truth is hard to take for a child" I wonder if what really is being said here is "The pain of children is hard for me to bear, so I will tell them a nice lie to not just remove their pain, but my own too". I wonder, in other words, how much of it really is for the childs well being, and how much is us being selfish.

That said, I think in the scenario you envision I would have no qualms about telling the child that there is no reason on offer to think there is a 2nd life, much less an eternal one, and that a dead person really does... on the basis of everything we know.... appear to be just that: Dead.

To do anything else not only puts me at risk of the child later discovering I lied to them... which in itself is a bad thing.... but is merely postponing the grief that would be felt now when they realize it was all unsubstantiated nonsense I was feeding them.

In fact technically you could be pedantic and say it is increasing their grief, as it is possible they long recovered from the grief they did feel... and the new realization it was baseless nonsense about the after life means they will now have to... in some ways.... lose that person all over again.


Further I think as a person who is not taken in my the concepts of religion that the closest thing we have to extending our life after death is to be remembered by those who knew you. It is us that retains the memory of the lost one and makes it last. There may be some risk that lying to a child about an after life means they will not invest enough in ensuring they do that to the best of their ability. Explaining to a child that a person is gone, but lives on in them, so they should do their best to hold on to those memories is best done now… before those memories become forgotten.

In fact it is not just memories… but aspects of lost ones that I myself have endeavored to assimilate into the person I myself am. I ask myself “What would X have done or said in this situation” and try to incorporate the best of that person into who I am today and I take a little of them into everything I do.

Finally children are very impressionable and ideas and concepts learned in childhood are hard to shake in later years. If you fit the canard of god and heaven into a childs mind now… however well meaning that might be at the time… you infect them with the meme virus that is Religion. We all know how difficult it is to cause theists later in life to renounce their childhood indoctrinations. A lie told now to give temporary reprieve from pain, is a first step in a life of believing lies from those in the world of religion who are only too happy to spread them and reap the rewards of planting them in the minds of others.

eco2live

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my question. It was very interesting. In the end along with my wife I told my daughter my thoughts on the afterlife (or lack there of). To be honest she took it great and I also talked to her for a bit about how there are no ghosts, monsters, devil, hell etc. I told her to appreciate her life and the people in it. My wife is coming round also so that makes it easier. Wife said that she does not really believe either and I explained some of the logic behind my reasoning.

I think my daughter is still a bit confused about mixed messages from school so we might have to try and make some changes there in the summer (if we can find another school). I hate the way in Irish society that guilt is heaped on people for just being human. I hope that she can grow up and enjoy life.

Quest

Think you are absolutely right to be as sincere as possible when it comes to discussing these types of question with children. Found it hard myself to go along with all the Santa stuff with ds but did it cos I didn't want him to miss out on the magic of it all - but when I told him eventually (at 12 - and no, he really didn't already know and no he is not stupid, in fact he is very bright...) he was really devastated and kept casting it up - oh dear... :eek:

I do believe in an afterlife - I just can't believe that all that makes up a unique personality - with all the humour, and creativity, and interestingly personal insight that each person has to offer - really just goes poof!

But I really respect the sincerely held beliefs of people who don't agree with me - and would never call them 'bull****' as a few contributors did. Rational people can sincerely hold either belief.

When I was explaining death etc to ds I told him what I believe, and explained what other people feel - but did give the reasons why I came to the conclusion I did. And since I'm not that easy to convince myself, the explanation of my reasons was quite detailed and philosophical.

Interesting discussion - thanks for raising it!

pH

I'm interested in one aspect (for those who don't believe in God/afterlife, but feel it's a bit too brutal of a truth for a child and are wishy-washy about telling the child what they believe) ...

Let's say your 5 year old child lost an arm in an accident, would anyone be happy with allowing the child live with the misrepresentation that "it will have grown back by the time they're 8"?

Sure it would make the 5 year old much happier and less worried at the time - but would anyone actually tell them that lie?

Delirium

Based on personal experience I'd say tell the kid the truth.

I was 7 when my mam died and all my relatives/neighbours etc were quite religious, this was back in the mid 80s. My dad and gran at different times tried to explain in what they thought was the best way they knew. God decided it was her time. Me being me, I would ask why and basically the question would go unanswered.

So me at 7 years old, suddenly had the concept of some cosmic "chilld-catcher" like creature to fret over. Something that could take away a loved one at any time with no rhyme or reason to the decisions it made.

I can honestly say that at 7 years old, that the truth wouldn't have been as upsetting to deal with. I can't speak for my siblings, but it definitely would have been better for me.

robindch

pH wrote: »

would anyone actually tell them that lie?

No.

Robert ninja

^ Unless it was in a dominant religion or another meme in our supersitious culture(affected by said religion), then it would be propogated just like any of the other lies - but for that one: No.

jill_valentine

Yeah, seconding what some of the others said, I think maybe framing it in a "Some people believe that... and then others believe that..." format is the way to go, and then if necessary, drop the "And I believe...".

Beruthiel

I believe when someone says they cannot tell a child something because of their age, they are really projecting onto that child.
I firmly believe once a child asks a question they are ready for the answer. They are very capable of taking the truth on board without any great trauma. It's all in the delivery and discussion with them.

Dont be at yourself

I'd tell my kids that I don't know, because it's the truth. I'd tell them what I believe (that there's no afterlife), but also that other people think there is (heaven, hell, valhalla...).

Dades

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

I'd tell my kids that I don't know, because it's the truth. I'd tell them what I believe (that there's no afterlife), but also that other people think there is (heaven, hell, valhalla...).

That sounds best to me - I'll probably go down that route when the time comes.

I'd also clarify that those people who claim to know - don't really know either - so don't believe what somebody says because they claim it's true. It's okay to not know.

DoubleBogey

Dades wrote: »

That sounds best to me - I'll probably go down that route when the time comes.

I'd also clarify that those people who claim to know - don't really know either - so don't believe what somebody says because they claim it's true. It's okay to not know.

But we do know what happens. We decompose just like every other biological thing on the planet. There's nit one shred of evidence that we are anything other than biological, so why would we tell our kids we don't know? That maybe there is a heaven, who knows.

I think the fact that we return to nature (figure of speech as we are always part of nature) is a beautiful thing. I take comfort when I feel the wind in my face or the smell of rain, thinking that my deceased love ones are now part of the journey of the universe. I think a child can understand that. They may still think of the person as a sentient being, that maybe they are alive in the wind and rain. But I think that's ok until they are old enough to fully understand.

Kooli

DoubleBogey wrote: »

I take comfort when I feel the wind in my face or the smell of rain, thinking that my deceased love ones are now part of the journey of the universe.

To be honest, I don't even understand what you mean by being part of 'the journey of the universe', so I can't imagine a child getting what that actually means.

DoubleBogey

Kooli wrote: »

To be honest, I don't even understand what you mean by being part of 'the journey of the universe', so I can't imagine a child getting what that actually means.

I mean we become part of nature, if that's easier.

CerebralCortex

DoubleBogey wrote: »

...I take comfort when I feel the wind in my face or the smell of rain, thinking that my deceased love ones are now part of the journey of the universe. I think a child can understand that. They may still think of the person as a sentient being, that maybe they are alive in the wind and rain. But I think that's ok until they are old enough to fully understand.

I feel nauseous. Tell them the truth.

sbsquarepants

What i did when my kids asked any sort of religious question, was to simply preface my answers with "some people believe........." If they then asked did i believe that i'd be honest and say i personaly don't believe it, but that nobody really knows for sure as there is no evidence either way. This was when they were quite young, now that they are old enough to reason (teenagers) i'm a bit more blunt about it! (ie it's not possible to prove that something doesn't exist, but quite easy to prove that it does) But i'm still mindfull not to try indoctrinate them to my way of thinking - after all that was the very thing that turned me against religion in the first place

the culture of deference

Tell them the truth.

I had this conversation with mine years ago, I told mine that there was no hell or heaven it was just made up. The 8 year old girl was delighted there was no hell.

Kids are little adults.

They should know all about sex, drugs, paedo's before they are 10, whats the benefit in sending to a (repressed) primary school that teaches them nothing about real life and its dangers, but can fill their little heads full of ficticious religious BS.

Most kids in Ireland learn nothing in school about sex, relationships, or the dangers that are out there. Grow up and tell them the truth.

dead one

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Tell them the truth.

the culture of deference wrote: »

Tell them the truth.

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

"Bigotry tries to keep truth safe in its hand with a grip that kills it."

lynski

This is a relevant thread for my family as I have recently buried my father. My 3 are small (4.5, 2.5 and 3mths) so explaining anything to them is limited. They have no exposure whatsoever to religion; they think the local church is a castle. They have no concept of gods, heaven, hell, afterlife, etc.
To them grandad is dead, he is buried in the graveyard across from his house, he died because his body stopped working and he is always with us because he is on our hearts and our memories.
I am not sure the 4 yr old understands any more then the 2 yr old or vice versa, but I am sure that the idea of an afterlife has not occurred to either of them naturally; it is a purely external construct.
When they encounter the concept I intend to use the 'some people think...' prefix to any answers; I have had to do it with some of the Santy myths already.

We will have to face further challenges to our lack of belief in the future, but for now it is fascinating to me to see the minds unencumbered by superstition develop.

Stercus Accidit

dead one wrote: »

"Bigotry tries to keep truth safe in its hand with a grip that kills it."

Bigots tell the truth and the pious and righteous tell lies? Oh and hate gays and are ok with slavery, but aren't bigots no sir, they'd have to stop lying to be that.

robindch

lynski wrote: »

they think the local church is a castle.

My kid's four and a half and still mistakes churches for castles too

lynski wrote: »

I am not sure the 4 yr old understands any more then the 2 yr old or vice versa

I explained it all around my kid's fourth birthday -- it came up naturally in conversation one day, so I explained about it all in simple terms and she was cool with it.

Last week, we went in to pay our respects to Garret FitzG and while she was quite curious about why he wasn't moving, she wasn't scared or upset about it. Back out on the street as she was climbing back onto the bike, she stopped, turned around to me and said that he'd be put into the ground in a box and that flowers and trees would grow from him and that people could use these to help remember him. It was a nice moment.

Based upon my experience of one, it seems to be quite easy for kids not to be scared of death, once it's presented in a calm and non-superstitious way.

condra

Hmmmm

I think theres a canyon of difference between telling a kid their dead relative is in a happy place called heaven, and bringing them up to believe all of the bull**** involved in Christianity.

I would have no problem with my 9 year old kid believing in heaven. I would worry if s/he was praying or making bombs or whatever.

jill_valentine

robindch wrote: »

My kid's four and a half and still mistakes churches for castles too :)I explained it all around my kid's fourth birthday -- it came up naturally in conversation one day, so I explained about it all in simple terms and she was cool with it.

Last week, we went in to pay our respects to Garret FitzG and while she was quite curious about why he wasn't moving, she wasn't scared or upset about it. Back out on the street as she was climbing back onto the bike, she stopped, turned around to me and said that he'd be put into the ground in a box and that flowers and trees would grow from him and that people could use these to help remember him. It was a nice moment.

Based upon my experience of one, it seems to be quite easy for kids not to be scared of death, once it's presented in a calm and non-superstitious way.

True enough. It's a funny one though, I was never afraid of death as a kid at least in part just because the full enormity of the concept was beyond me. Tricky stuff.

AhSureTisGrand

dead one wrote: »

"Bigotry tries to keep truth safe in its hand with a grip that kills it."

What are ya schmokin boyo?

dead one

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

What are ya schmokin boyo?

The truth.... whose smoke has been dimmed...

Discrimination is a hellhound

the culture of deference

lynski wrote: »

This is a relevant thread for my family as I have recently buried my father. My 3 are small (4.5, 2.5 and 3mths) so explaining anything to them is limited. They have no exposure whatsoever to religion; they think the local church is a castle. They have no concept of gods, heaven, hell, afterlife, etc.
To them grandad is dead, he is buried in the graveyard across from his house, he died because his body stopped working and he is always with us because he is on our hearts and our memories.
I am not sure the 4 yr old understands any more then the 2 yr old or vice versa, but I am sure that the idea of an afterlife has not occurred to either of them naturally; it is a purely external construct.
When they encounter the concept I intend to use the 'some people think...' prefix to any answers; I have had to do it with some of the Santy myths already.

We will have to face further challenges to our lack of belief in the future, but for now it is fascinating to me to see the minds unencumbered by superstition develop.

I think lying to kids about an afterlife is terrible. Their heads get filled full of stories, santy, bunnies, god, heaven etc and then adults wonder why their kids lie. It is great to see more of us around now.

Hope you are doin ok, did he have a church burial?, how did you explain the nonsense of a man in a dress performing weird rituals and endless repetition bowing and ding donging bells.

I didn't go to my parents funerals.

jank

robindch wrote: »

Santa at nine? I'd drop a hint or two, lest she mentions it to somebody at her school :)The topic's come up with my kid a few times, and the answer's the same -- people are born, they live, they die, then they go into the ground to give birth to flowers and trees, while the living remember them. She gets it to the extent that she's asked to visit graveyards to see the plants and told me a few weeks back what she wants growing on hers (pink and yellow roses).

Not exactly a fun conversation I have to say, but hands down, it beats feeding kids bullshit.

btw, we don't use euphemisms like "pass away", "pass on" etc either -- just simple "die". No metaphors either. Just the facts. And she's fine with that.

Id say your a barrel of laughs....

MagicMarker

jank wrote: »

Id say your a barrel of laughs....

You're.

jank

Spelling checks now? Sums up this forum in fairness.

You know I share probably 95% of the same ideas as most of the people here but this board seems to be an outlet for those who want to bash anything and everything that doesn't conform to their own view point. Arrogant isn't the word. People would take you guys a lot more seriously if you werent so militant and steadfast in your opinions. I'd say the average age of this forum is 16!

{Queue 15 rebuttals on how I am a misguided theist who likes to fondle with kids!}

Sarky

You could be a tad less abrasive...