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Educate Together has won the right to establish and run second-level schools

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Comments

  • #32
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    liamw wrote: »
    Do Educate Together schools have a generic religion class to teach kids about the different religions around the world and their history?
    Educate Together don't have any second level schools yet.
    The new RE programme is a mandatory subject in the Junior Certificate in our local state school ... it covers the beliefs of all of the major religions ... and it even has a section on Atheism and Materialism.

    I understand that the 'science and religion' module is particularly interesting ... and it has led to many very healthy debates on the 'origins issue' ... as well as in Biology class!!!!

    ... all part and parcel of a good liberal education.


  • #33
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    J C wrote: »
    The new RE programme is a mandatory subject in the Junior Certificate in our local state school ... it covers the beliefs of all of the major religions ... and it even has a section on Atheism and Materialism.
    Mandatory in that particular school, but not by law
    I understand that the 'science and religion' module is particularly interesting ... and it has led to many very healthy debates!!!!

    ... all part and parcel of a good liberal education.

    Having suffered through the course myself, I must say that I feel it was a highly frustrating waste of time. 4-5 classes a week of what was at best vague, pseudo-philosophical bullish*t. Perhaps it's taught better in other schools, but I would have got a much better education were it not for the imposition of the RE course upon me in the name of a "good liberal" education


  • #34
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    J C wrote: »
    The new RE programme is a mandatory subject in the Junior Certificate in our local state school ... it covers the beliefs of all of the major religions ... and it even has a section on Atheism and Materialism.

    Considering atheism isn't a religion or belief system, I imagine you mean it covers the fact that some people reject or do not subscribe to religious belief.


  • #35
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    AhSureTisGrand wrote: »
    Mandatory in that particular school, but not by law.
    I'm not sure ... nobody has tested it by trying to take their children out of class ... we are all a pretty liberal and enlightened bunch of people, I guess!!!

    AhSureTisGrand wrote: »
    Having suffered through the course myself, I must say that I feel it was a highly frustrating waste of time. 4-5 classes a week of what was at best vague, pseudo-philosophical bullish*t. Perhaps it's taught better in other schools, but I would have got a much better education were it not for the imposition of the RE course upon me in the name of a "good liberal" education
    ... it has a bit too much relativism, for my tastes ... but it's probably a reasonable compromise.
    ... and it certainly opens children's minds up to the real world ... and teaches them to cherish and respect differences of opinion ... something that some adults could also do with learning!!!:eek:


  • #36
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    liamw wrote: »
    Considering atheism isn't a religion or belief system, I imagine you mean it covers the fact that some people reject or do not subscribe to religious belief.
    ... we have been over this argument ad nauseum on the 'other' thread ... and suffices to say ... that it is not only the Schools RE programme that classifies Atheistic Humanism as a belief system!!!


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  • #37
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    J C wrote: »
    I'm not sure ... nobody has tested it by trying to take their children out of class ... we are all a pretty liberal and enlightened bunch of people, I guess!!!

    I'm pretty sure schools are allowed force otherwise non-mandatory subjects on students


  • #38
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    AhSureTisGrand wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure schools are allowed force otherwise non-mandatory subjects on students
    Force probably isn't the right word ... but any curriculum tends have a degree of coercion about it.

    Nobody really minds, once everyone is treated with respect ... as Ali-G might say!!!:)

    Was RE mandatory in your school ?


  • #39
    FinnLizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 424 ✭✭FinnLizzy


    I went to an ET primary school. The case with religion was that it was an all or nothing scenario.
    I remember our class doing a presentation on the month of Ramadan, and our class only had 1 muslim in it. It was interesting, and I didn't think to much into it. If the Daily Mail heard news of such filth, by golly!

    RE is replaced with 'core cirriculum', which is basically religion without the praying.


  • #40
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    FinnLizzy wrote: »
    I went to an ET primary school. The case with religion was that it was an all or nothing scenario.
    I remember our class doing a presentation on the month of Ramadan, and our class only had 1 muslim in it. It was interesting, and I didn't think to much into it. If the Daily Mail heard news of such filth, by golly!

    RE is replaced with 'core cirriculum', which is basically religion without the praying.
    ... so does that mean that they would do a presentation on Creation Science ... if there was one Biblical Creationist child in the class?
    ... or is equality of esteem achieved by doing presentations on all of the main world religions, irrespective of whether there is a child belonging to each religion in a particular class?


  • #41
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    The educate together having the right to establish and run second-level schools is a complete non-event imho.

    meh.


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  • #42
    Newaglish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭Newaglish


    J C wrote: »
    ... so does that mean that they would do a presentation on Creation Science ... if there was one Biblical Creationist child in the class?
    ... or is equality of esteem achieved by doing presentations on all of the main world religions, irrespective of whether there is a child belonging to each religion in a particular class?

    I understood and agreed with one of J C's posts. Yikes.


  • #43
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    FYI - Ruairi Quinn will be interviewed tonight at 10 on Newstalk. Dunno what time exactly, but during whatever show is on then. Coleman At Large?


  • #44
    goose2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Think it's a bad idea - it legitimises the ridiculous idea of schools having a "patron". The only patron of state-funded schools should be the state.


  • #45
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Jayzus that Coleman fella is a total cvnt. He's worse than Vincent poxy Browne.


  • #46
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    goose2005 wrote: »
    Think it's a bad idea - it legitimises the ridiculous idea of schools having a "patron". The only patron of state-funded schools should be the state.

    Have to agree, as much as I'd prefer something like educate together rather than a religious patron, I fail to see the need for either.

    We don't need non-state companies to wedge themselves into social security system, to be "patrons" of dole offices, nor in fire-stations, why can't the state just set out a curriculum, organise the teaching of it and get on with it.

    Sure, parents and interested parties could have a small role to play on a school board, around peripheral issues such as uniforms, sports etc. but why is there a need for an organisation like educate together to take our money and provide schools with it?


  • #47
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Dave! wrote: »
    Jayzus that Coleman fella is a total cvnt. He's worse than Vincent poxy Browne.

    Any use Dave? Missed it, is it worth listening to when it shows up on the site?


  • #48
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    J C wrote: »
    VEC stands for Vocational Education Committee ... Clergy from all denominations are involved at every level within these schools and Biblical Christianity is freely discussed and respected.

    It's a very different situation in American Public Schools where agressive Materialism rules supreme ... .
    I agree. In our local VEC school they call in two priests to give their blessings and conduct prayers at the various special events to which parents are invited. One is RC, one is a Prod. It's to prove how neutral the school is. Unfortunately, it just means twice as much time sitting through the verbose prattling of self important men who are well aware they are making a sales pitch to the lapsed members of their respective communities.

    There is also a "meditation room" in the school. It's basically a spare room, looks like any other, and nobody can quite make up their mind what to do with it.
    J C wrote: »
    I understand that Educate Together is a multi-denominational school system ... so I'm sure that they respect and value the beliefs of all of the parents and children attending their schools ... and especially minority religions, just like the situation which currently exists within the state system in Ireland.

    Yeah, there is some sectarian labelling done by theists, differentiating between multi denominational and non denominational. I never really understood it though.
    AhSureTisGrand wrote: »
    Having suffered through the course myself, I must say that I feel it was a highly frustrating waste of time. 4-5 classes a week of what was at best vague, pseudo-philosophical bullish*t. Perhaps it's taught better in other schools, but I would have got a much better education were it not for the imposition of the RE course upon me in the name of a "good liberal" education
    That's pretty much it. They have removed the local bishops from "control" of the schools, but instead of filling the void with useful stuff, like maths, or science or languages, they have filled it with some kind of wishy-washy generic neutral "Politically Correct Religion". I have to say though, that many people are happy enough with that. I seemed to be in a minority when I refused to chant along with the prayer responses. An Irish solution to an Irish problem I suppose.
    LOL have I just answered my own question? Is that what "multi -denominational" means?

    goose2005 wrote: »
    Think it's a bad idea - it legitimises the ridiculous idea of schools having a "patron". The only patron of state-funded schools should be the state.
    Interesting point. On the other hand, maybe there is room for having a choice of schools, each with a different brand or ethos. A monopoly is rarely good for the consumer.


  • #49
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    recedite wrote: »
    There is also a "meditation room" in the school. It's basically a spare room, looks like any other, and nobody can quite make up their mind what to do with it.

    We used to have one of those. never seen anyone use it. the key was always getting lost. Had some nice looking cushions in it. Wonder how they felt...


  • #50
    Duffy the Vampire Slayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,384 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    pH wrote: »
    We don't need non-state companies to wedge themselves into social security system, to be "patrons" of dole offices, nor in fire-stations, why can't the state just set out a curriculum, organise the teaching of it and get on with it.

    Having dole office patrons would be fairly hilarious. 'Unemployed Together' would challenge the contemporary practice of handing out dole cheques at mass.


  • #51
    goose2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    recedite wrote: »
    Interesting point. On the other hand, maybe there is room for having a choice of schools, each with a different brand or ethos. A monopoly is rarely good for the consumer.

    But if there is choice it could be in teaching methods - Montessori schools, standard teaching, high-discipline schools for "problem" children, special schools for the most talented, etc.

    i.e. a diversity of schools that caters for the needs of children rather than the bigotries and superstitions of their parents.


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  • #52
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    goose2005 wrote: »
    But if there is choice it could be in teaching methods - Montessori schools, standard teaching, high-discipline schools for "problem" children, special schools for the most talented, etc.

    i.e. a diversity of schools that caters for the needs of children rather than the bigotries and superstitions of their parents.

    I agree, but this implies some sort of "patron" or "brand" needs to be present.
    Without getting into the whole public service V private sector debate, there is a danger that "State" public schools will deteriorate to the lowest common denominator, as seems to happen in the USA (where they sometimes have metal detectors at the entrances to disarm students on the way in) and the UK.
    The patron of our own VEC schools is effectively the local County Council. Most of these schools haven't been around very long, but they do seem to be of a good standard so far.
    There are also other some other non religious patrons around, such as the Steiner schools and John Scottus which have some sort of spiritual or philosophical ethos. Educate Together seems to be emerging as the dominant non religious brand though.

    Basically I think if the teachers in a school are on the state payroll, only the state curriculum plus some sport or PE should be taught and nothing else. The curriculum should be purely fact based, and therefore there should be no RE classes at all. If someone wants to have an Islamic school, or an RC one, or COI or any other school practising the subtle indoctrination of kids while educating them, they should not look to the taxpayer to pay the teacher's salaries.


  • #53
    Truley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Truley


    recedite wrote: »
    Basically I think if the teachers in a school are on the state payroll, only the state curriculum plus some sport or PE should be taught and nothing else. The curriculum should be purely fact based, and therefore there should be no RE classes at all. If someone wants to have an Islamic school, or an RC one, or COI or any other school practising the subtle indoctrination of kids while educating them, they should not look to the taxpayer to pay the teacher's salaries.

    Facts are subjective though. An education system is not established off facts. It's based on a particular theory of Childcare and pedagogy and, as far as the state is concerned, economics. A state education program may deem that children need rote learning and rigorous testing. Whereby a Waldorf ethos follows that children learn better through practical and artistic activities. There isn't an objective 'right' way of doing it. But limiting freedom and variety of choice is certainly counter-productive.

    This is something I never quite understood, people berate the Church for it's stronghold on schools yet seem to look to the state to take on the exact same role. A state controlled education is never going to be unbiased, the primary incentive will always be economical, what is in the interest of the state not what is best for the welfare of the child. At least with a parent/community/ethos led project the motives are a little more sincere no?


  • #54
    tawnyowl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 517 ✭✭✭tawnyowl


    goose2005 wrote: »
    But if there is choice it could be in teaching methods - Montessori schools, standard teaching, high-discipline schools for "problem" children,
    One danger with a high-discipline school is that it might just become a dumping ground for anyone that doesn't fit into the school system. Another is that "high discipline" itself may become a problem (see the punishment regieme in the industril schools for an extreme example). Lastly, such a school may fail to get to the root cause of bad behaviour (i.e. it may be caused by domestic violence).
    special schools for the most talented, etc.
    Gifted/talented education is a very controversial topic.
    i.e. a diversity of schools that caters for the needs of children rather than the bigotries and superstitions of their parents.


  • #55
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    recedite wrote: »
    I agree, but this implies some sort of "patron" or "brand" needs to be present.
    Without getting into the whole public service V private sector debate, there is a danger that "State" public schools will deteriorate to the lowest common denominator, as seems to happen in the USA (where they sometimes have metal detectors at the entrances to disarm students on the way in) and the UK.
    The patron of our own VEC schools is effectively the local County Council. Most of these schools haven't been around very long, but they do seem to be of a good standard so far.
    There are also other some other non religious patrons around, such as the Steiner schools and John Scottus which have some sort of spiritual or philosophical ethos. Educate Together seems to be emerging as the dominant non religious brand though.

    Basically I think if the teachers in a school are on the state payroll, only the state curriculum plus some sport or PE should be taught and nothing else.
    The curriculum should be purely fact based, and therefore there should be no RE classes at all. .
    ... the Christian Faith is fact based ...and schools in Ireland are legally in loco parentis i.e. they take the place of the parents and our constitution states that parents are the primary educators of their children ...
    ... to date we, have been spared the Metal Detectors and the school shootings by guys wearing T-shirts proclaiming 'survival of the fittest' (in the case of the Columbine Massacre) ... and 'humanity is over-rated' (in the case of the Finnish school shooting)!!!

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/biology_evolution/article6905259.ece

    http://oddculture.com/weird-news-stories/deadly-finnish-school-shooting/

    ... our public schools have done a good job to date at respecting diversity ... including diversity of belief within the school community ... as well as attaining high academic standards.
    recedite wrote: »
    If someone wants to have an Islamic school, or an RC one, or COI or any other school practising the subtle indoctrination of kids while educating them, they should not look to the taxpayer to pay the teacher's salaries.

    Could I gently point out that taxpayers are predominantly Mono-theists, in this country ... as are the vast majority of parents ... so legally and fiscally, parents have every right to determine what is taught to their children in state-funded schools in this country ... and any Christian parent reading the anti-theist remarks on this forum will not be in any rush to consign their children to any curriculum that, you guys, might support for schools!!!!:(

    Your 'logic' actually seems to be that Christians should be taxed to pay for the indoctrination of their own children with Materialism !!!
    The 'bottom line' on all of this is that it is the parents ... and not the state ... that are the natural and constitutionally guaranteed primary educators of their children ...

    Article 42, Section 1 of the Irish Constitution states that "'The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children."

    http://www.involve-migrants-improve-school.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/Country_Reports/Ireland.pdf

    BTW, this also means that the rights and views of Atheist parents must be respected ... as well as the rights and opinions of Christian parents ...

    ... so it's IN with equality of esteem ... and OUT with all forms of sectarianism of both the Theist and Atheist varieties!!!

    ... Love and peace to everyone.:)


  • #56
    eoin5
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,141 ✭✭✭eoin5


    sigh...

    The thread was actually going someplace for a minute :(


  • #57
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    eoin5 wrote: »
    sigh...

    The thread was actually going someplace for a minute :(
    It still is.
    Love and peace.


  • #58
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    J C wrote: »
    our constitution states that parents are the primary educators of their children ..

    Let them teach whatever their own peculiar values are then, outside school hours.
    taking control of schools to exclusively indoctinate our Christian children with your version of agressive Materialism
    No, I said leave out the indoctrination, and teach only what is generally accepted by society as fact.

    Regarding taxpayers, if most taxpayers/parents vote for a particular political party, that doesn't mean we should divide schools into those that advocate fine gael policy, labour policy, sinn fein etc. No, let schools just stick to the facts and let people develop whatever religion and politics they like outside of that framework.

    BTW atheism is not materialism. An atheist could reject materialism and espouse spiritual values, for example by selling off his/her property and going off around the world meeting new people and cultures, or going off to live in the woods as a hippy.
    Peace, man :)


  • #59
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    recedite wrote: »
    Let them teach whatever their own peculiar values are then, outside school hours.
    This is one way of doing it ... but it wouldn't be a liberal multi-ethnic education, equipping people to live in a pluralist, multi-cultural society.
    recedite wrote: »
    No, I said leave out the indoctrination, and teach only what is generally accepted by society as fact.
    ... There are many aspects to Christianity that are accepted as fact by the generality of Irish society ... and there are aspects to Materialism that are strongly contested ... such as the belief that the physical universe is all there is!!
    recedite wrote: »
    BTW atheism is not materialism. An atheist could reject materialism and espouse spiritual values, for example by selling off his/her property and going off around the world meeting new people and cultures, or going off to live in the woods as a hippy.
    Peace, man :)
    I meant materialism in the sense of a belief in the material universe being all there is ... rather than somebody who is focussed on acquiring the maximum amount of material possessions.

    Love and peace to you too.:)


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