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What to tell a child who asks? Afterlife etc.

135

Comments

  • #62
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    jank wrote: »
    Thats fair enough but the amount of high horse sneering that goes on in the forum is disappointing. I was referring to that really. There are a few good posters here that will point out the right way but the majority make it a hostile place.
    Stop judging the forum as a single entity. This is a free place to be as militant or as meek as they want without being, well, downright insulting to someone (or to a group, as you were).

    If you have a problem with a particular post or series of posts use the report button. Otherwise address a post yourself - but avoid generalisations - they're cheap.

    There you go.


  • #63
    take everything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,858 ✭✭✭take everything


    Isn't the only reasonable honest answer "nobody knows", qualified by what you believe, stressing that it's only your belief.
    I got the impression of knowledge from a lot of the posts, like people have experienced death.


  • #64
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    take everything wrote: »
    Isn't the only reasonable honest answer "nobody knows", qualified by what you believe, stressing that it's only your belief.
    I got the impression of knowledge from a lot of the posts, like people have experienced death.
    I'm with the "nobody knows" school of thought. No matter how sure of ourselves we are.


  • #65
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Dades wrote: »
    I'm with the "nobody knows" school of thought. No matter how sure of ourselves we are.

    Are you with the "nobody knows" school of thought for life before birth?


  • #66
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    liamw wrote: »
    Are you with the "nobody knows" school of thought for life before birth?
    All I know is I've told my 2 and half year old daughter that she was a star in the sky before she came out of mummy. She seems content with the explanation so that's the line I'm currently toeing.

    (Point is: thing aren't as simple when you're talking to kids)


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  • #67
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Dades wrote: »
    All I know is I've told my 2 and half year old daughter that she was a star in the sky before she came out of mummy. She seems content with the explanation so that's the line I'm currently toeing.

    (Point is: thing aren't as simple when you're talking to kids)

    If I ever have kids I plan on just telling them the truth about what we know.

    It's strange, given the fact that all scientific understanding of the human brain and consciousness indicates that when we die we're simply gone, that so many people will join the agnostic camp (i.e the 'maybe there's an afterlife') on this. I guess fear of death overwhelms even the most skeptical and rational among us.


  • #68
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    liamw wrote: »
    If I ever have kids I plan on just telling them the truth about what we know.

    Which sounds great in theory - when you actually have a sobbing 4 year old who doesn't really grasp the fundamentals of "stop existing" beyond being terrified by the whole concept, it's not so black and white. Like everything with kids, you ease them into full knowledge with age appropriate nuggets along the way - most of the time you are trying to approach subjects like death in such a way as not to give the poor child nightmares. :)


  • #69
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Like everything with kids, you ease them into full knowledge with age appropriate nuggets along the way - most of the time you are trying to approach subjects like death in such a way as not to give the poor child nightmares. :)
    ^^This.

    Age appropriate nuggets that don't have to involve full disclosure for the sake of mummy/daddy's strongly held belief.


  • #70
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    jank wrote: »
    To be honest I had a point, I would not be so cold hearted with my kids as robindch
    Presumably because, lacking the imagination to do anything more honest, you believe it's "warm-hearted" to lie to kids?

    BTW, any more invective will see you out of here.


  • #71
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Like everything with kids, you ease them into full knowledge with age appropriate nuggets along the way - most of the time you are trying to approach subjects like death in such a way as not to give the poor child nightmares. :)

    I remember when I was a kid I did have nightmares about heaven and hell. I was scared of these supernatural entities that were always watching me and judging me.

    When I say I intend to tell the truth, that doesn't mean I have to be super blunt and cold about it. I often think people underestimate a child's ability to handle things like this. All I know is I would have infinitely preferred to have been just told the truth about reality instead of fairytale stories.

    But I don't have kids so maybe I'll change my tune, who knows :pac:


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  • #72
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    robindch wrote: »
    Presumably because, lacking the imagination to do anything more honest, you believe it's "warm-hearted" to lie to kids?

    BTW, any more invective will see you out of here.

    Do/did your kids believe in Santa Clause? Did they put a tooth under the pillow when their first tooth fall out?


  • #73
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    jank wrote: »
    Nobody.

    Then who is being militant?
    jank wrote: »
    Thats fair enough but the amount of high horse sneering that goes on in the forum is disappointing. I was referring to that really. There are a few good posters here that will point out the right way but the majority make it a hostile place.

    I have been on this forum since I started posting 4 years ago and I have never seen this to be the case. By the worst offenders for arrogance and sneering are the theists who drop a couple of posts in single thread ("dont atheists have better things to be doing than complaining about religion" :rolleyes:) and then never come back again. Even the more abrasive atheist posters here will only bring out the sneering for people who are clearly trolling or being incredibly silly.


  • #74
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    jank wrote: »
    To be honest I had a point, I would not be so cold hearted with my kids as robindch but what he wants to with his kids is his business...90% of parents would agree with me, rightly or wrongly....

    That is all.

    In what way was Robin cold hearted with his kids?


  • #75
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,145 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    dead one wrote: »
    "Bigotry tries to keep truth safe in its hand with a grip that kills it."



    You shouldn't be allowed out.
    jank wrote: »
    To be honest I had a point, I would not be so cold hearted with my kids as robindch but what he wants to with his kids is his business...90% of parents would agree with me, rightly or wrongly....

    That is all.

    It's not cold hearted. If people wanna believe in fantasy and lie to their kids, you really have to ask what kind of message are they passing on.


  • #76
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    liamw wrote: »
    Are you with the "nobody knows" school of thought for life before birth?
    Actually I am. Long story for another thread... :D

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #77
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,145 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    liamw wrote: »
    Are you with the "nobody knows" school of thought for life before birth?

    Fantastic point Liam

    This is worthy of its own thread


  • #78
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,466 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    jank wrote: »
    Do/did your kids believe in Santa Clause? Did they put a tooth under the pillow when their first tooth fall out?
    So, do you believe that it's "warm-hearted" to lie to kids?


  • #79
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Then who is being militant?


    I have been on this forum since I started posting 4 years ago and I have never seen this to be the case. By the worst offenders for arrogance and sneering are the theists who drop a couple of posts in single thread ("dont atheists have better things to be doing than complaining about religion" :rolleyes:) and then never come back again. Even the more abrasive atheist posters here will only bring out the sneering for people who are clearly trolling or being incredibly silly.

    I must disagree with that. Most other forums well serious forums anyway would have reprimanded a poster who starts correcting someones spelling, and I know there is a report button as I used it. That is fair enough, if that is the type of posting that goes on here and is acceptable then fair enough it just brings the whole forum down in my opinion where one cant take it seriously.

    Also it seems that this forum has a serious agenda to put down any and all religions. For an atheist forum they do sure spend an awful lot of time complaining about religion. 50% of the time is, lets talk about atheist issues and the other 50% is lets put down other religions, post funny articles, youtube vids etc. The islam forum doesnt spend half its time saying Christianity is the devils work and the Christianity forum doesn't go out of its way to piss off Muslims. ..... But hey ce la vie. Life goes on.

    So as you say, that type of behavior is a reaction of people say like me who asks "silly" question and who are trolling (if i was trolling i would have been banned by now) so it must be me being silly right? I don't get atheism... its that simple hence the hostile remarks.

    Edit: Classic example here.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72583216&postcount=60

    I suppose Fanny Cradock was being silly or being a troll here? Like what was the point of that post?


  • #80
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    robindch wrote: »
    So, do you believe that it's "warm-hearted" to lie to kids?

    Answer the question? Or will I take it that is a No?


  • #81
    Animord
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,004 ✭✭✭Animord


    jank wrote: »
    50% of the time is, lets talk about atheist issues and the other 50% is lets put down other religions, post funny articles, youtube vids etc.

    By the very nature of atheism there is not much to talk about ...:)


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  • #82
    AhSureTisGrand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭AhSureTisGrand


    jank wrote: »
    I must disagree with that. Most other forums well serious forums anyway would have reprimanded a poster who starts correcting someones spelling, and I know there is a report button as I used it. That is fair enough, if that is the type of posting that goes on here and is acceptable then fair enough it just brings the whole forum down in my opinion where one cant take it seriously.

    Given the amount of crap that gets posted in here, one's brain would turn to mush if he tried to take it absolutely seriously
    Also it seems that this forum has a serious agenda to put down any and all religions. For an atheist forum they do sure spend an awful lot of time complaining about religion. 50% of the time is, lets talk about atheist issues and the other 50% is lets put down other religions, post funny articles, youtube vids etc. The islam forum doesnt spend half its time saying Christianity is the devils work and the Christianity forum doesn't go out of its way to piss off Muslims. ..... But hey ce la vie. Life goes on.

    I would say 50% is a generous portion for "atheist issues", whatever those are. Without a common cause or belief system I'd find it hard to identify many common issues. Much of the stuff posted here is more accurately labelled as secularism and indeed anti-theism, which can be regarded as having very clear goals. If religion were less prevalent, I imagine this forum would be much quieter, having little to talk about in and of itself.

    Look at the Skeptic's Corner for example. Unified only by a lack of belief, do they talk about "skeptic issues" or do they talk about the stuff the other people in the paranormal forum believe? It's also much quieter, as ghosts 'n' stuff aren't as big a deal as Jesus and Mohammed.
    So as you say, that type of behavior is a reaction of people say like me who asks "silly" question and who are trolling (if i was trolling i would have been banned by now) so it must be me being silly right? I don't get atheism... its that simple hence the hostile remarks.
    If the trolls got banned in here there'd be nothing left to talk about (and perhaps nobody with whom to talk). We secretly love the trolls


  • #83
    Zillah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,369 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    jank wrote: »
    Most other forums well serious forums anyway would have reprimanded a poster who starts correcting someones spelling

    Welcome to A&A. Spelling is important.

    (Yet another potential subtitle?)
    Also it seems that this forum has a serious agenda to put down any and all religions.

    Agenda invokes notions of secrecy or deception. We're really quite open about putting down religions.
    For an atheist forum they do sure spend an awful lot of time complaining about religion.

    I think you'll find that it is basically the only thing to be talked about on an atheist forum.
    The islam forum doesnt spend half its time saying Christianity is the devils work and the Christianity forum doesn't go out of its way to piss off Muslims.

    Is Islam defined by its opposition to Christianity?


  • #84
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    jank wrote: »
    I must disagree with that. Most other forums well serious forums anyway would have reprimanded a poster who starts correcting someones spelling, and I know there is a report button as I used it. That is fair enough, if that is the type of posting that goes on here and is acceptable then fair enough it just brings the whole forum down in my opinion where one cant take it seriously.

    You cant take a forum seriously if the posters correct each others spelling?
    jank wrote: »
    Also it seems that this forum has a serious agenda to put down any and all religions. For an atheist forum they do sure spend an awful lot of time complaining about religion. 50% of the time is, lets talk about atheist issues and the other 50% is lets put down other religions, post funny articles, youtube vids etc.

    You do realise that this is the Atheist and Agnostic forum right? Of course we are going to talk about religions in a good proportion of our posts, as rejection of religion is really the main thing that we all agree on (although even that can be to varying degrees). Not only that, but the majority of us live in a country that is still trying to shake off the grip of religious nonsense in our public schools (publicly funded schools with religious "ethos" can discriminate students and teachers based on religion), government (our constitution mentions the word God 14 times, thats more than Irans constitution) and court rooms (new judges still have to swear on a bible). It would be far easier for us to not talk about religion if religion could keep to itself, if there wasn't more and more evidence of abuse from the clergy all over the world, if religious organisations didn't spread lies about contraception because peoples safety is secondary to increasing their power base. But religion doesn't keep to itself, it doesn't let people honestly discuss the issues it raises, it doesn't welcome ration and logic.
    jank wrote: »
    The islam forum doesnt spend half its time saying Christianity is the devils work and the Christianity forum doesn't go out of its way to piss off Muslims. ..... But hey ce la vie. Life goes on.

    On the muslim forum, muslim things are discussed. On the christianity forum, christian things are discussed. And on the atheist and agnostic forum? Well, atheist and agnostic things are discussed, its just that there isn't anything more to being an atheist than not believing in god, so a lot of our discussions will revolve around those that do and why they do.
    jank wrote: »
    So as you say, that type of behavior is a reaction of people say like me who asks "silly" question and who are trolling (if i was trolling i would have been banned by now) so it must be me being silly right? I don't get atheism... its that simple hence the hostile remarks.

    From what I can tell from your posts, you make a conscious efforts not to get atheism. What part of "dont believe in god" is hard to get?
    jank wrote: »
    Edit: Classic example here.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72583216&postcount=60

    I suppose Fanny Cradock was being silly or being a troll here? Like what was the point of that post?

    If you read the next few posts in that thread, you would have seen that Mr. Pudding was referring to someone who appeared in the youtube clip that Fanny Cradock was responding to.


  • #85
    keanooo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭keanooo


    Just tell your kids the truth.

    The truth will set them free. (As a fictional charachter once said).


  • #86
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    OK, I get it now. fair enough. It is kinda hollow at the end of the day as people will tire of just being anti this or anti that. Not really alot to talk about athisem I suppose as its a fairly simple idea so I understand why more energy goes into being anti-religion than anything else. Just that I think one may have better use of their time.

    I think alot, maybe the majority of posters here are here because of the disgarceful carry on by the catholic church in Ireland and the world. That is understandable of course. A reaction to what happened.

    Secularism is 100% something I agree with in education and public life but I also agree with the individuals right to worship or not worship in places where they are free from ridicule (not saying this is happening by the way! before someone jumps on it). People are also free to send their children to religious schools of their choosing. We live in a free country.

    Faith or lack of is a private matter for the person....
    From what I can tell from your posts, you make a conscious efforts not to get atheism. What part of "dont believe in god" is hard to get?

    Now, now I thought the right phrase was "lack of belief" in god.

    I know what the idea means but cannot reconcile it with myself. As evidenced here it is a rather hollow, benign idea that doesn't do justice to the wonderful universe and world we inhabit. At first it seems like a revoultionary idea but when you open the door there is nothing behind it. That is the point, I get that now but not for me, thanks!


  • #87
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Appologies for taking this thread off topic by the way but at least the OP has got some answers which he may find helpful.

    Not sure my advice would go down too well though.


  • #88
    Dr. Loon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭Dr. Loon


    jank wrote: »
    revoultionary idea but when you open the door there is nothing behind it.

    So rather than accept reality, let's stick God in there right?


  • #89
    Robert ninja
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,878 ✭✭✭Robert ninja


    Not really alot to talk about athisem I suppose as its a fairly simple idea so I understand why more energy goes into being anti-religion than anything else.

    Yeah, talking on a forum... whole lotta energy goes into it.
    As evidenced here it is a rather hollow, benign idea that doesn't do justice to the wonderful universe and world we inhabit.

    It's not an idea... and you just said you totally understood atheism. About that wonderful universe... the kind where millions if humans and animals die painful deaths from starvation or disease? Where 99% of all species ever existed on the planet are now extinct and where any enviornment off planet Earth is completely hostile to all life? That wonderful universe?

    K.


  • #90
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Dr. Loon wrote: »
    So rather than accept reality, let's stick God in there right?

    Your version or idea of God may be very different to my idea of it.


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  • #91
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Robert ninja wrote: »
    Yeah, talking on a forum... whole lotta energy goes into it.



    It's not an idea... and you just said you totally understood atheism. About that wonderful universe... the kind where millions if humans and animals die painful deaths from starvation or disease? Where 99% of all species ever existed on the planet are now extinct and where any enviornment off planet Earth is completely hostile to all life? That wonderful universe?

    K.

    Yea the universe sucks! Boo to the universe!
    Glass half empty?


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