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Interviews with British target shooters

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Comments

  • #62
    Bananaman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    IRLConor wrote: »
    I don't think he was referring to The Phoenix shoot. More probably the Bisley Week smallbore prone competitions which would not be equivalent to The Phoenix in terms of shooting standard.

    The smallbore prone stuff at Bisley week is a higher standard than domestic competition but it wouldn't compare to a European Championships or Hanover or Plzen.

    My bad

    You guys keep winning that match? Is the degree of competition.not high enough?
    Sparks wrote: »
    B'man, the only international ISSF match you can get to for €500 might be the Isle of Man Easter shoot.

    And that one too?

    B'man


  • #63
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Bananaman wrote: »
    My bad

    You guys keep winning that match? Is the degfeeof competition.not high enough?

    B'man

    If there's a limit on time and money, then I'm looking at bigger shoots than Bisley. Besides, the only shoot there that interests me is the ISSF championships. Not interested in travelling over to shoot on three-card system. And no, I'm not going over and winning, nor am I yet of a standard to do so, but so what? What's your point? Do that, then think of the next thing? Why should I not think of the ultimate goal now? You criticised Sparks for a perceived slight on "your sport" but now you're just passing snide judgements on athletes and their ambitions, suggesting they're too high.


  • #64
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    We've taken quite a few medals from the airgun championships in Bisley back to Meath alright. We (as in WTSC) haven't had it as a target match in a while because there wasn't enough competition for our top shooters, and they were stagnating. It's not a national team match because it's so small.

    The next matches up (RIAC, Intershoot, the Hell Open, and so on) are all a very big step up though (and they're national team matches as well), with a lot of contracted Liga shooters (not the rusk, the german shooting leagues) showing up, so you start running into the problems we've mentioned above. It's like finding that you can win your local chess club championships and be the best chess champion in Ballincollig, but the very next step up the ladder has you competing against Kasparov, and you only get a development grant (and the access to the biomechanics and other support services that go with it) after you beat him in three matches...


  • #65
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    Bananaman wrote: »
    My bad

    You guys keep winning that match? Is the degfeeof competition.not high enough?

    B'man

    Nope. I've never won anything outside of domestic competition.

    Part of the problem with Bisley week is that it's not really useful training for any of the other matches since a bunch of the competitions during the week are NSRA rather than ISSF ones. It's not really money well spent IMHO. If I planned on one outing a year I would think of going for the crack, but I'd prefer to save the money and holiday days and go to the Isle of Man. A bunch of the same shooters (or at least that level) go to that and it's actually useful experience for aiming at other matches. The money left over in the difference could go to ammo or other travel.


  • #66
    Bananaman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    I am not saying that - apologies if that is how it came across.

    What I am saying is that while the money is tight or non-existent - you have little option but to compete where you can afford.

    If that means a National Championships here at home, going to the Isle of Man for Easter and going to Bisley in August - it means you have goals that can be achieved in the interim - without compromising the long term goals.

    Surely if you did those and were consistently kicking arse it would make a better case for a wee purse from the powers that be.

    B'Man


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  • #67
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Bananaman wrote: »
    Surely if you did those and were consistently kicking arse it would make a better case for a wee purse from the powers that be.

    The whole point is that that is not the case, that you can do all that (or not - for funding purposes it's completely irrelevant) and then go abroad to fulfill the requirements to apply for funding which wouldn't even cover the costs of having gone abroad to fulfill those requirements for application.


  • #68
    Bananaman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    That's a vicious circle - which you cannot break.

    You need to forget about getting any funding and just go!
    It's a millwheel round your neck to even be thinking about it.

    Like you said - even if things were the right way around - and you got it before you went - it would not be enough for tips.

    (if you get any funding when you come back - get a couple of pints and the best wines known to mankind with it)

    B'Man

    PS: I went on an open ended Holiday once - I hummed and hawwed for years about whether or not to do it - in the end I just packed in the job and went - I ran up 50k debt on that one holiday - 14 months - took me nearly five years to pay it back.

    I would do it again in a heartbeat if I could. (but I'll be wearing yellow trousers and a sun visor the next time I have a chance)

    As a famous philosopher once said - never regret the things you did - only the things you didn't.


  • #69
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bananaman wrote: »
    Surely if you did those and were consistently kicking arse it would make a better case for a wee purse from the powers that be.
    Nope, it doesn't. The wee purse already has set criteria and a documented procedure.
    The problem is that those criteria are utterly ridiculous.
    That's why we tried to change them five or six years ago.


  • #70
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Frankly, I think between us we've got it right. Athletes shouldn't have to think about this, but sadly, they really do need to. Personally, I don't want to have to think about it, but long term, this is going to affect me if I keep improving. It's all well and good to say just go, but it's not so easy as that without support from work and someone with funding. So far, plan "Marry elderly billionairess with dodgy heart and take everything she's got" is not going so smoothly!


  • #71
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bananaman wrote: »
    You need to forget about getting any funding and just go!
    Bananaman, that's what we've been trying to do for the last few years.
    And it's not like we were hiding the attempt either y'know.
    But saying that we can go and win without the support structures is just saying that you don't really understand the task. (It's the whole Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself meme right there).

    And it's not us saying "oh, we can't win because of the ISC" or whining about it either. We're getting on with it as best we can.

    What this is, is us saying that the ISC is happily claiming that they support us when anyone who knows anything about the sport knows that the ISC is utterly delusional if they really believe that.


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  • #72
    IRLConor
    Subscribers Posts: 4,076 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    Bananaman wrote: »
    What I am saying is that while the money is tight or non-existent - you have little option but to compete where you can afford.

    If that means a National Championships here at home, going to the Isle of Man for Easter and going to Bisley in August - it means you have goals that can be achieved in the interim - without compromising the long term goals.

    Swap Bisley for Hanover and you pretty much have what FLOYDSTER is doing.
    Bananaman wrote: »
    That's a vicious circle - which you cannot break.

    You need to forget about getting any funding and just go!
    It's a millwheel round your neck to even be thinking about it.

    That's pretty much my attitude towards it, but then I'm lucky enough to have a little spare cash to spend. Not all are as lucky.
    Bananaman wrote: »
    PS: I went on an open ended Holiday once - I hummed and hawwed for years about whether or not to do it - in the end I just packed in the job and went - I ran up 50k debt on that one holiday - 14 months - took me nearly five years to pay it back.

    I did something similar for about 6 months, though to be honest it was more like "decompressing" after 3 years of doing a software startup. Still, totally worth it.


  • #73
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Bananaman wrote: »
    As a famous philosopher once said - never regret the things you did - only the things you didn't.
    I'm guessing that famous philosopher never tried telling the wife that he'd packing in the job for an open-ended "holiday" that was going to burn through the college funds for all three kids...


  • #74
    Bananaman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    Sparks wrote: »
    I'm guessing that famous philosopher never tried telling the wife that he'd packing in the job for an open-ended "holiday" that was going to burn through the college funds for all three kids...

    She packed in her job and came too. Kids came later - if they can get into college - they can pay their own way - I wont have it.

    Point is if I tried to save the 50k I would never have gone
    If I thought I would spend that much I would never have gone
    If I kept thinking about it i would never have gone.

    I was as bad as anyone else at finding reasons why i could not do something.

    Where will i get the money?
    Should I buy a house?
    Will I be able to get a job when I come back?
    Will it damage the career?
    What about tropical diseases?
    What about warzones?

    Who cares?

    That one decision changed me - I now only look for the one or two ways in which something can be done and waste no time on looking at the reasons it cannot - there is no upside to that. You just end up pissed off and getting nowhere.

    Better to two steps forward or two steps back and happy than pissed off standing still.

    B'Man


  • #75
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    B'man, I keep trying to gently point this out to you, but you're missing it every time.

    All the serious NTSA shooters - the ones going for the International circuit - have been doing that for the last few decades.

    But the lack of support they get from the ISC is not a fact of life that we cannot change - it's something we can, and need to, and will change. Accepting it would not be in anyone's best interests, ours or yours (because in case you missed it in '06, this used to be a grant open to all shooters until the ISC thought that non-olympic wasn't worth caring about. We disagreed with them then and we still do today).

    And it's not as though we were looking for money for nothing either. The money that the ISC gives out in grants came from our taxes and licence fees and club fees and VAT on kit and so forth. It wouldn't be there if it wasn't for us. And the ISC's mandate is to support sportspeople, so why the hell shouldn't we demand what's fair from them?


  • #76
    Bananaman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭Bananaman


    I see no reason you should not demand it - theres plenty already in the queue

    The serious gallery rifle, benchrest rifle, pistol shooters, etc will also benefit from if it ever happens - their taxes and sport too

    What is silly is to plan on having ISC funding, to assume it will enough if you do get or to make it a prerequisite to being able to compete - they are the same as acorporate sponsor only more fickle.

    If you get some it may take the sting out of the flights or ferry to a match but thats about it

    It doesnt justify a major allocation of time and effort

    If funding is the main obstacle to someones ability to compete then they need to allocate some of their time to fundraising - get their ass waxed or wear their shooting jacket to krystle for sponsorship, do a few pub quizzes, look for sponsorship

    An awful lot of time, effort, rending of cloth and gnashing of teeth has gone into ISC funding -

    Submit the paperwork - go to the range - repeat


  • #77
    demonloop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭demonloop


    Sparks wrote: »
    It might be possible to do something like that - DHL the kitbags and clothes and travel with the rifles and ammo. We were looking at doing it the other way round...

    Thats the way, courier the kit and your personal gear, just take the rifle and hand luggage. Much easier trip, and heck of a lot cheaper.

    I did a trial run at IOM, went like clockwork, and only had my rifle case to carry in the airport!


  • #78
    demonloop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 682 ✭✭✭demonloop


    Bananaman wrote: »
    A veiled "your sport" thingy from you again huh?

    The degree of prejudice you show towards anything that is not the specific subset of target shooting you take part in - or the people who take part in it - if breathtaking - it borders on racist.

    Hundreds of people train hard all year to take part in The Pheoenix match @ Bisley.

    Many people scrimp and save all year to have the funds to travel to that match. They practice long and hard to be as good as they can to win individually or to be part of a team representing their country.

    Why belittle someone who trains hard all year for a specific match?
    Why would you do that? What have you to gain?

    Why is that any more or less important than you training hard all year to go to a match - whether it was in Meath, Munich or Montevideo?

    It is not - it is of equal importance.

    Shame on you!!

    B'Man

    I think on this note, I'll bow out.


  • #79
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Bananaman wrote: »
    or to make it a prerequisite to being able to compete

    This is the problem. It *is* a prerequisite to compete against a sporting world whose participants are professionals in all but name. That's the long and short of it. Nothing to do with us "making" it so. Unless you win the lottery, you need government funding and support to be competitive. It does not work otherwise. Alternatively, you can set up a company just to support your shooting, as has also been done, but that's a market with diminishing opportunities.


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