RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

moro_original · 27-05-2011 4:27pm

Any word on whether there will be flat panel / "squarial" type dishes for this service, or will a solid dish be the only option? I believe the Sky style mesh dishes don't work?

Cheers

Sam Russell · 27-05-2011 4:52pm

A thought struck me. If one gets Tooway through the UK, then the IP address would be a UK one and BBC iPlayer etc would be available. Mmmmm.

watty · 27-05-2011 4:56pm

I think you might not.

If you are in Ireland it's on the Irish Spot. Whoever resells it (Bentley Walker, SBI, Digiweb) you will get an Irish IP.

If you get it in UK and move it to Ireland it will not work without re-provisioning. It would be a bit like expecting a Virgin Cable Modem to work on UPC here. Or UPC Netherlands Modem to work here, it won't without provisioning.

Besides at low cap and > 700ms latency it's not real Broadband.

watty · 27-05-2011 5:03pm

moro_original wrote: »

Any word on whether there will be flat panel / "squarial" type dishes for this service, or will a solid dish be the only option? I believe the Sky style mesh dishes don't work?

Cheers

The Sky type dish isn't even good for Ku. Tends to rust. It's technically a perforated dish and it may not be good enough (too rough or holes too big, I will test).

There is no suggestion of flat panel or "squarial" dish. A 44cm boxed cassegrain (it's a real dish in a box with no arm) may work, but it's been suggested to me that the "approved" size is 65cm. Testing in the next few weeks will tell.

We are hampered by fact that no-one will admit to the parameters or EIRP of the beam. Now that there is a transmission we can analyse what is there.

Note a working 44cm dish in clear sky is no proof. We need to know the signal in reasonably heavy rain and when the transmission is at lowest power, or allow a margin for lower power.

ShaneU · 27-05-2011 6:27pm

Can't figure out if my tv is mpeg4 or not. It's a samsung ps50c450b, google is not being helpful. It has a digital tuner but I can't seem to pick up any channels, tv is less than a year old.

dmm1000 · 27-05-2011 7:24pm

dont think it is MPEG4
from Amazon :-

System
DTV Reception (DVB-T/T2/C/S2): DVB - T / C
DTV Tuner Built-in: Yes
MHP/ MHEG (version): No

but if not MPEG4 and are recieving a signal to TV you should pick up sound only ( and no picture)
If you pick up neither sound nor picture then you're not recieving a good quality Saorview signal

rlogue · 27-05-2011 10:41pm

watty wrote: »

RTE is supposed to be running an International Service. But the Government has not yet released funding. Since the Government has NOT funded DTT or Saorsat, RTE quite reasonably thinks any service for people OUTSIDE Ireland should be directly funded, like DW is.

Not reasonable.

RTE have been ducking this on the grounds that they expect the Government to fund the transmission costs. Originally the argument used by RTE and their apologists was that since the BBC overseas services were funded by the UK Government therefore any overseas satellite service should be funded by the Irish government. Of course the UK government no longer fund the World Service radio broadcasts and never ever funded the BBC World TV broadcasts in any case.

I guess Conor Hayes and Co. have found that DW-TV is funded by the German government and is now using this as an excuse not to start the official broadcasts.

As a result people will rightly ignore this nonsense and take out Sky subs to watch Irish TV.

But this money is a lost opportunity for RTE as none of it goes to RTE.

RTE have been consistently a bunch of weasels when it comes to providing an overseas service - Conor Hayes shut down Tara TV even though Setanta were about to rescue it and pay all of the money owed by Tara to RTE. Instead Hayes pushed for Tara to be liquidated. Why? Doesn't make business sense, but that's what he and Liam Miller (the RTE appointed directors of the Tara TV board) pushed for according to the examiner's report.

When RTE's hand was forced by Eamon Ryan to provide the service RTE played and continue to play hard ball with the government on the funding issue. Money was found to pay for DTT with or without the bond - but no money is available to take advantage of the growing Irish diaspora around the world?

Jerky RTE player video is fine to a point but people really want proper full definition video.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-05-2011 11:21pm

rlogue wrote: »

Jerky RTE player video is fine to a point but people really want proper full definition video.

The best thing about RTE player from their point of view is that it's low cost, they don't have to pay the cost of 'transmission' and as broadband will continue to rapidly improve (outside Ireland, anyway!) it will become more and more viable as an alternative to broadcasting for niche audiences.

Why should RTE spend much money to service viewers which aren't very attractive to advertisers and don't pay a licence? Easier to let ISPs take the strain, and far cheaper. Just ask any UK ISP how they feel about BBC iPlayer :pac:

watty · 28-05-2011 8:32am

RTE player is not P2P. It's high cost as RTE is paying the data usage of each user. They DO pay the "transmission cost". It's just with number of viewers x length of viewing x bitrate that the cost is not yet high.

The issue with ISPs is Congestion. No ISP is designed for the majority being online streaming at same time.

SD7792 · 28-05-2011 10:59am

Are you able to pick up these channels using a freest box?

watty · 28-05-2011 11:13am

yes and no.
You need a dual or multi-feed dish, or a second dish and a LH Circular Ka band LNBF that is not yet available (will be soon) pointed for 9E. Also a "Freesat" or ANY kind Sky box is no use. You need either a "Freesat HD" box in non-freesat mode or a generic DVB-S2 HD box (but that will have no MHEG5). The MHEG5 ought to work on a "Freesat HD" box but might not. Similarly we don't know yet about "series link"

Freesat uses a "universal" type Orthogonal / Linear Ku Band LNBF pointed at 28E.

http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/
http://www.saortv.info/about/faq/

Hotblack Desiato · 28-05-2011 12:35pm

watty wrote: »

RTE player is not P2P. It's high cost as RTE is paying the data usage of each user. They DO pay the "transmission cost". It's just with number of viewers x length of viewing x bitrate that the cost is not yet high.

They do pay, but the viewers are paying too for the data they receive, whereas with broadcasting the viewer pays nothing (apart from the licence which arguably they need for watching TV on the internet, anyway.)

It doesn't scale well but for niche audiences it's going to get more and more viable in the next few years, we were talking about a niche channel for expats.

The issue with ISPs is Congestion. No ISP is designed for the majority being online streaming at same time.

No. They make money by vastly overselling bandwidth, if everyone actually used what they're paying for their business model would fail badly.

Minstrel27 · 28-05-2011 12:39pm

ninja900 wrote: »

Why should RTE spend much money to service viewers which aren't very attractive to advertisers and don't pay a licence? Easier to let ISPs take the strain, and far cheaper. Just ask any UK ISP how they feel about BBC iPlayer :pac:

I don't understand why they don't turn off encryption when there is a programme they would have clearance for ie. those available internationally on the RTÉ Player. Problem solved. It works for RAI in Italy.

Capt'n Midnight · 28-05-2011 12:47pm

Early days yet, but which would be the better all in one box solution - or is it much of a muchness ?

A box that does combined sat and DTT

or

one sat box with diseq and two LNB's

Obviously if you've difficulty setting up antenna's or aligning LNB's your choice will be dictated by what you can do.

rlogue · 28-05-2011 1:04pm

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I don't understand why they don't turn off encryption when there is a programme they would have clearance for ie. those available internationally on the RTÉ Player. Problem solved. It works for RAI in Italy.

Well that would be the obvious and possibly cheapest thing to do! Much of RTE One and TG4's prime time schedules are already clear on the RTE player so why not? After all the issue is regarding sports and imported programming rights so I would agree these programmes must be encrypted but the rest could simply be FTA.

Mr. Rabbit · 28-05-2011 2:48pm

yes and no.
You need a dual or multi-feed dish, or a second dish and a LH Circular Ka band LNBF that is not yet available (will be soon) pointed for 9E. Also a "Freesat" or ANY kind Sky box is no use. You need either a "Freesat HD" box in non-freesat mode

I assume watty, you could use a seperate Freesat HD box/PVR and dish for Saorsat (i.e. two different systems) and the EPG will work OK ?

That might be a far better solution than attempting to combine Freesat with Saorsat on the one box and dish, even if it is a bit more expensive.

Unless someone can come up with a solution to the EPG problem.

watty · 28-05-2011 3:32pm

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I don't understand why they don't turn off encryption when there is a programme they would have clearance for ie. those available internationally on the RTÉ Player. Problem solved. It works for RAI in Italy.

Because it's Sky and not an RTE feed. Sky is paying for the Carriage. Their contract even forbids them supplying it to Mainland UK. Sky don't know or care what programs can be FTA.

Also even home produced stuff would cost RTE SOMETHING more if FTA over UK.

watty · 28-05-2011 3:37pm

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I assume watty, you could use a seperate Freesat HD box/PVR and dish for Saorsat (i.e. two different systems) and the EPG will work OK ?

That might be a far better solution than attempting to combine Freesat with Saorsat on the one box and dish, even if it is a bit more expensive.

Unless someone can come up with a solution to the EPG problem.

No. Either the EPG will work on the Freesat box or not. It's likely to work. MHEG5 should work too. But it depends on the box.

The only point of Saorsat for people in 98% of the country *IS* to use one Freesat HD PVR for both.

Series link is an unknown.

Why do you think the EPG will not work? RTE unlike Freesat is using standard DVB EPG. Even if they add MHEG5 EPG, that's only extra functionality, which may work anyway on some Freesat HD boxes as Freesat uses MHEG5. It's entirely at discretion of setbox maker (NOT part of Freesat spec) to include Diseqc, MHEG on non Freesat mode. ALL should be working with full EPG as that is simply part of DVB spec.

tmcw · 28-05-2011 3:52pm

rlogue wrote: »

Well that would be the obvious and possibly cheapest thing to do! Much of RTE One and TG4's prime time schedules are already clear on the RTE player so why not? After all the issue is regarding sports and imported programming rights so I would agree these programmes must be encrypted but the rest could simply be FTA.

I'm sure Sky would have something to say about switching their videoguard on and off. I don't know the arrangements Sky Italia have with RAI, but I understand RTE don't pay Sky (or SES-ASTRA) for carriage on 28E. Changing that arrangement would probably cost RTE, and as an end user who wants the FTA UK channels and the Irish channels, periodic encryption of the Irish channels on 28E would drive me insane, even if it was just for 3 or 4 hours a day.

I'm delighted that RTE/TG4 are going to be on 9E, and look forward to seeing how it pans out over the rest of the year. I would probably watch more RTE/TG4 if I can get them on the same box as the rest of my channels.

Mr. Rabbit · 28-05-2011 4:11pm

Why do you think the EPG will not work?

Because you said:

You need either a "Freesat HD" box in non-freesat mode

Which I assumed mean't you had to tune RTE (Saorsat) in under the "other channels" option in Freesat (non Frreesat mode) if you were using the one dish and one STB for both services ?

I also assume that if you use a seperate dish and seperate Freesat HD box for Saorsat you'll have access to the full 7 day EPG, not just now and next ? For example, if I used a Humax Freesat HD box (or PVR) and dish solely for Saorsat, I'll get the same features as I have for Freesat, only the the channels will be Saorsat ?

I'm assuming this would probably be far simpler and easier than attempting to combine Freesat with Saorsat in one dish and one STB, even though it would obviovusly be more expensive

Mr. Rabbit · 28-05-2011 4:18pm

also, I have an old 1 metre Satellite dish (for sky analogue) aligned between 13 and 19 degrees east (in order to receive the old Eutelsat serrvice i.e. BBC World etc.). The dish is not perforated.

If I bought the apropriate LNB, Freesat HD STB/PVR ,and realigned the dish would I be able to receive Saorsat ?

Or will I need as new dish ?

watty · 28-05-2011 4:21pm

EPG has two meanings:
1) The Freesat Channel listing menu
2) The information like RTE Guide on Program Content

Unless Freesat transmit an EPG placeholder, then Saorsat channels will not be on the EPG in sense (1). Sense(2) should work.

For Humax there is a 3rd party channel editor.

old 1 metre Satellite dish

If the Dish is pointed at 16E then an off axis LH Circular ka Band LNB for 9E would be fine. See http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

You would want either a Multiswitch or two Diseqc switches to use Freesat and PVR features also. 13 & 19E can be kept.

Mr. Rabbit · 28-05-2011 4:29pm

Another question re. Freesat PVRs

With Freesat+ (i.e. the PVR) a dual LNB at least is needed. I gather that with Saorsat, multi feed LNBs are not required in order to activate the PVR functions. Is this correct ? Do you simply have the one feedline which is split at the PVR inputs ? Or am I talking rubblish ?

Apologies if these questions sound stupid but I've no idea as to what's involved here.

Mr. Rabbit · 28-05-2011 4:36pm

watty wrote: »

EPG has two meanings:
1) The Freesat Channel listing menu
2) The information like RTE Guide on Program Content

Unless Freesat transmit an EPG placeholder, then Saorsat channels will not be on the EPG in sense (1). Sense(2) should work.

For Humax there is a 3rd party channel editor.

If the Dish is pointed at 16E then an off axis LH Circular ka Band LNB for 9E would be fine. See http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

You would want either a Multiswitch or two Diseqc switches to use Freesat and PVR features also. 13 & 19E can be kept.

Thanks Watty.

See what you're getting at re the EPG (which I assumed mean't the electronic programme guide). I have read that some expats attempting to receive Feesat abroad at the edge of the footprint have this issue.

OK on my old dish and PVR issues. Thanks for the info.

watty · 28-05-2011 4:44pm

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Thanks Watty.

See what you're getting at re the EPG (which I assumed mean't the electronic programme guide).

Really the 2nd meaning is Electronic Program Guide.

The 1st is really an Electronic Channel Menu. But It has the EPG "built" in at each channel. A user interface kind of thing.

There is usually a button you can press when on a channel to see the programs related just to that Channel, an Electronic Program Guide!

watty · 28-05-2011 4:54pm

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

Another question re. Freesat PVRs

With Freesat+ (i.e. the PVR) a dual LNB at least is needed. I gather that with Saorsat, multi feed LNBs are not required in order to activate the PVR functions. Is this correct ? Do you simply have the one feedline which is split at the PVR inputs ? Or am I talking rubblish ?

Apologies if these questions sound stupid but I've no idea as to what's involved here.

Freesat, Sky and most other Ku band services the LNB can be on High or Low band and Horizontal or Vertical polarity, thus you can't split it. You need a Quad or Octo, or for more receivers a Quad or Quattro (each outlet is fixed at one of four possible) feeding a Multi-switch.

But Ka-sat achieves 82 spots by frequency and polarisation reuse. It has 4 dishes on satellite, each fed by 20 to 24 offset feeds, so each feed is reflected to a slightly different place on the ground. Mathematically you only need 4 different types of spots to ensure that no two adjacent spots match.

So any particular Ka-Sat spot will only be using one part of Ka band and one polarisation. Thus if the signal is strong enough a coax can be split to feed two receivers (using a Satellite IF splitter, not a TV F-connector splitter). Or two Diseqc Switches if you want Freesat also. With a multiswitch you only need feed one of the four LNB in ports. You can even have 3/4ths of the channels from another Ku LNB (quattro) on the other 3 ports! Or the two signals from a C-band Dual (H & V or L&R only).

Mr. Rabbit · 28-05-2011 7:28pm

watty wrote: »

Freesat, Sky and most other Ku band services the LNB can be on High or Low band and Horizontal or Vertical polarity, thus you can't split it. You need a Quad or Octo, or for more receivers a Quad or Quattro (each outlet is fixed at one of four possible) feeding a Multi-switch.

But Ka-sat achieves 82 spots by frequency and polarisation reuse. It has 4 dishes on satellite, each fed by 20 to 24 offset feeds, so each feed is reflected to a slightly different place on the ground. Mathematically you only need 4 different types of spots to ensure that no two adjacent spots match.

So any particular Ka-Sat spot will only be using one part of Ka band and one polarisation. Thus if the signal is strong enough a coax can be split to feed two receivers (using a Satellite IF splitter, not a TV F-connector splitter). Or two Diseqc Switches if you want Freesat also. With a multiswitch you only need feed one of the four LNB in ports. You can even have 3/4ths of the channels from another Ku LNB (quattro) on the other 3 ports! Or the two signals from a C-band Dual (H & V or L&R only).

Thanks watty, I appreciate all the info.

I would imagine this service being very popular up here once it's up and running, especially in areas that can't get Saorview or don't have access to the new RTE mini mux. Places such as the East coast of Antrim (Larne, Glenarm, Carnlough, Waterfoot etc. ) spring to mind. Up until now the only way they could get RTE was through Sky.

It'll be interesting to see how au fait the local aerial/satellite installers are with all the technical issues.

Apogee · 29-05-2011 1:56am

Just wanted to see if it was feasible to get a signal on a low quality Lidl dish (that's seen better days). Put Ka-LNB on centre focus + half roll of insulating tape to keep it in place. Signal must be considerably down on what you'd get with a proper integrated LHCP Ka-LNBF.

Locks no problem and no artefacts in video/audio. So wanted to see if I could get 28E on as well - not exactly a work of art, but it works.

Dish

LNB/F span

and rear span

Apogee · 29-05-2011 2:04am

As the VU+ can read the Freesat EPG, you should be able to get an integrated EPG like you can with Freesat/Saorview. But the UK EPG was missing...

Yet if you went to the individual channels, you can get the full 7-EPG.

RTE 1

BBC One HD

If you look at the top right corners of the pics, you'll see the time and dates are wrong. Not only are RTE looping the video, but the EPG data is looped as well. So if the box powers on when tuned to the Saorsat channel, it thinks it's 14 April, hence the BBC EPG doesn't appear for 'now'.

Whereas if you power on the box on a Freesat channel, the grid is populated for all the UK channels.

That weirdness aside, an integrated EPG will be possible on Linux boxes when the service goes live. And both Freesat/Saorsat on the one dish connected by a Diseqc switch should be AOK.

watty · 29-05-2011 9:01am

I'd say the date/time wierdness is because this is just a pre-encoded file of a transport stream?

Yes, what you illustrated was what I was trying to explain that there are usually two user interfaces to EPG, the "menu guide" and the info when you are on a channel that is only EPG for a single channel.

Apogee · 29-05-2011 2:31pm

Minstrel27 wrote: »

I don't understand why they don't turn off encryption when there is a programme they would have clearance for ie. those available internationally on the RTÉ Player.

Capt'n Midnight · 30-05-2011 12:26pm

tmcw wrote: »

I don't know the arrangements Sky Italia have with RAI, but I understand RTE don't pay Sky (or SES-ASTRA) for carriage on 28E. Changing that arrangement would probably cost RTE, and as an end user who wants the FTA UK channels and the Irish channels, periodic encryption of the Irish channels on 28E would drive me insane, even if it was just for 3 or 4 hours a day.

RAI are the BBC of Italy, same deal with rights issues, but there are few Italian speakers outside their boarders so have been FTA since day 1 , the encryption on football matches was by changing the line sync pulse to three different positions. Almost watchable since it sorta looked like bad ghosting.

On digital it's a black screen.

For sports many games would be FTA somewhere, back in the day you could get sound from one channel and video from another.

http://www.lyngsat.com/freetv/Italy.html - La7 is the only large terresterial Italian channel not FTA on Hotbird

SKY are a late entry in to the Italian market, and are busy buying up as much as they can to gain market share. It's not like here where until the BBC went FTA that they had a defacto monopoly.

Question is whether in future enough people abroad get FTA boxes that don't rely on the SKY EPG in propietry Digiboxes that the advertising RTE could sell in the UK would be not only enough to cover transmission costs , but would also be worth more than selling the programs to BBC etc.

watty · 30-05-2011 1:29pm

How many people outside Italy speak Italian vs % of people in Italy and would actually want to watch RAI compared to People next to us that speak English.

Austrian TV watched by Germans and Swiss would be a better analogy. Or better still Swiss TV in German.

The rights costs even for home produced stuff could exceed transmission costs.

bk · 30-05-2011 1:52pm

watty wrote: »

Because it's Sky and not an RTE feed. Sky is paying for the Carriage. Their contract even forbids them supplying it to Mainland UK. Sky don't know or care what programs can be FTA.

Also even home produced stuff would cost RTE SOMETHING more if FTA over UK.

Personally I see both of these issues as simply failures of RTE to negotiate the best deal possible.

Sky need RTE much more then the other way around. Sky needed RTE to become as successful in the Irish market has they have.

I'm sure during the original negotiations, that RTE could have negotiated the switching off of encryption for Irish produced content, while still getting the deal for Sky to pay the carriage and EPG, etc. Perhaps in return for Sky putting the unencrypted portions of the RTE channel on the Sky EPG in the UK (a nice selling point for Sky with Irish ex-pats in the UK).

As for RTE having to pay producers extra for the Irish content FTA. Again just put your foot down, RTE could have simply demanded FTA rights included in the normal price they paid. If the producers don't like it, then though, they can go see how much TV3/TG4 will give them (hint much, much less).

RTE have a very strong negotiating position in Ireland, they just don't seem to use it.

watty · 30-05-2011 2:41pm

All good points.

To RTE in the past, SKY was simply an NTL without wires. They said practically that in an email to me back just after RTE launched on Sky.

rlogue · 30-05-2011 3:02pm

watty wrote: »

The rights costs even for home produced stuff could exceed transmission costs.

Not so. All that would appear on an RTE International channel would be rights cleared - that would not include live sports as separate agreements cover these.

Dont forget Tara TV showed a lot of live relays of home produced programming and so does the RTE player today. I would expect only these programmes to be available.

Can you give a specific example of where the rights for a home produced programme would exceed transmission costs?

rlogue · 30-05-2011 10:31pm

watty wrote: »

How many people outside Italy speak Italian vs % of people in Italy and would actually want to watch RAI compared to People next to us that speak English.

Austrian TV watched by Germans and Swiss would be a better analogy. Or better still Swiss TV in German.

The rights costs even for home produced stuff could exceed transmission costs.

Interesting comparision with the Austrian and Swiss situation.

Note that Swiss citizens outside Switzerland are entitled to a viewing card that gives access to the Swiss channels for the price of the Swiss licence fee. The SF Info channel is FTA.

ORF 1 & 2/ATV is soft encrypted and any box ranging from Dreamboxes to Vus to Technomates can open them. ORF2 E is FTA across Europe on Astra 1.

RTE/TV3/TG4 is only available on Sky Ireland and NI subs. It is far harder to watch Irish TV abroad than the Austrian and Swiss models cited by Watty. Far harder. At least the Austrians offer a limited FTA service and Swiss nationals can watch all their TV.

We cannot. And it remains a disgrace.

dolandy · 31-05-2011 1:18am

Hey guys,

A small bit off topic, but two queries for you guys none the less

When it is expected that the saorsat service will be broadcasting RTE 1/2 TV3, 3e as opposed to the test loops?

Anyone have any idea on suppliers of head-end systems for either saorview/saorsat? Have a couple of units installed in hotels and such that combine the satellite/terrestrial signals to discrete HF channels on the down-wire. The choice not to encode in the standard DVB-S/T formats is going to be costly on a good few business' me thinks!!!

The Cush · 31-05-2011 3:05am

dolandy wrote: »

When it is expected that the saorsat service will be broadcasting RTE 1/2 TV3, 3e as opposed to the test loops?

http://www.saorview.ie/what-is-saorview/saorsat/

By October 2012 SAORVIEW will be accessible to 98% of the population. Due to topography it is not possible for the SAORVIEW service to reach 100% of population.

Approximately 2% of the population will not be able to receive the SAORVIEW service.

RTÉNL is currently in the process of developing and testing a free-to-air satellite service, SAORSAT, which will make it possible for 100% of the population to access Irish free-to-air digital television channels and services. This will provide coverage to the homes not covered by SAORVIEW.

RTÉNL expect to be able to make more information publicly available about this new service in late 2011.

boffin54321 · 31-05-2011 12:54pm

So when saorsat is launched, you'll be able to receive RTE1/2/TV3 etc on a satellite dish - is that right?

So if u already have a sattelite dish it would make more sense to wait for saorsat rather than get a saorview aerial/set top box?

Thanks

The Cush · 31-05-2011 1:12pm

boffin54321 wrote: »

So when saorsat is launched, you'll be able to receive RTE1/2/TV3 etc on a satellite dish - is that right?

So if u already have a sattelite dish it would make more sense to wait for saorsat rather than get a saorview aerial/set top box?

Thanks

1. Yes.

2. Maybe not, different satellite position to Sky/freesat. Different LNB and receiver required. The aerial and Saorview STB/iDTV might be the more flexible and cheaper option. In due course all TVs will have a Saorview DTT tuner built in, Saorsat will always require a separate receiver.

Trevord · 31-05-2011 6:13pm

bk wrote: »

Personally I see both of these issues as simply failures of RTE to negotiate the best deal possible.

RTE have a very strong negotiating position in Ireland, they just don't seem to use it.

Imagine what would happen now though if RTE got tough and it disappeared off SKY due to a contractual disagreement even for a short period.

Print media would be quickly on board to slag off RTE (remember who owns some of these papers). The principles of the arguement would be lost in a clammer to get RTE back on Sky.

TV3 would still be on Sky I presume so Sky customers would get irate with RTE. (Something similar is happening right now with Sky customer complaining on this forum that they can't get RTE HD/Saorview on Sky).

I think the train has long left the station and too many people nowadays expect RTE to be part of the "Sky Package".

Maybe RTE did a bad negotiation, not because they were poor negotiators, but because they did not realise at the time how valuable their product would be for Sky.

The Cush · 01-06-2011 2:11pm

Ka-Sat is now operational

EUTELSAT’s KA-SAT HIGH THROUGHPUT SATELLITE GOES LIVE

New-generation Tooway™ broadband services now available
across Europe and the Mediterranean Basin

Paris, 31 May 2011

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...

Broadcasters and video service providers can also take advantage of the spotbeam coverage of the KA-SAT satellite architecture to deliver content in a single beam or multiple beams for regional and local television and corporate TV networks.

http://www.eutelsat.com/news/press-releases.html?idCp=901

bob11 · 02-06-2011 10:28am

Slightly off topic, but interesting that Digiweb are offering Tooway satellite broadband via Ka Sat already:http://www.digiweb.ie/home/tooway/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJL5qqCRbqE&feature=player_embedded#at=70

Super fast 10Mb Broadband
Anywhere in Ireland
- Great introductory price from just €19.95 per month
- Next generation satellite broadband
- Order today and get setup within 10 days

A question for the techies out there.

If Digiweb put up a dish for Tooway, can it also be used to get Saorsat ??

watty · 02-06-2011 10:36am

Yes it can. You just split the coax from the ODU to Modem RX (not the TX cable!)

A satellite IF 950 ... 2100MHz splitter is needed not a TV type.

But the cap is pathetic on Tooway, latency is 700ms+ and the install is much more expensive than a regular Sat TV one.

Better to wait till the domestic LNBFs are available and have dual feed with Freesat.

Tooway and Hylas are only for people that can't get anything else.

Things like Ajax, Google docs, gaming and other real time activities are poor to unusable on satellite Internet.

It may be better than Mobile 3/Meteor/O2/Vodafone 3G/HSPA in some cases.

The Cush · 02-06-2011 12:19pm

bob11 wrote: »

If Digiweb put up a dish for Tooway, can it also be used to get Saorsat ??

This is what Conor Hayes of RTÉ said last year

Mr. Conor Hayes: ...

Our satellite option would operate on the Ka band as opposed to the Ka band. The Ka band is typically used for telecommunications purposes or contributions between broadcasters. The Ka band is used by the single largest pay television operator in the US, DirecTV, which uses it to deliver high definition television. It works on a consumer basis and is a proven product in weather conditions.

People are offering satellite services over broadband. If one has a broadband service over satellite, one is capable of offering telephony or voice over IP, VoIP. If we are up there in the clear, some bright spark might offer people broadband, telephony and Irish channels — RTE, TG4, TV3 and so on — without their needing to spend much money.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/MAJ/2010/07/14/00003.asp

watty · 02-06-2011 12:50pm

Updated two articles
http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/
and
http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage

Attempt at clarified explanation and illustration of differences of French Calais spot having carrier in same part of band or not.

(via Techtir)

Each spot is only 1 x 238MHz bandwidth transponder.
There appears to be only actually two transponder frequencies/bands and two polarisations giving four flavours of spot,

New graphic has closer to Eutelsat spot colours.

When RTE/Saorsat is using two carriers from the Autum/Winter 2011, then they will be using 1/5 to 1/4 of the spot bandwidth as they are only running QPSK with a very robust FEC of 1/2. Actual Internet services may run APSK with FEC 5/6 giving higher Mbps/MHz than RTE NL is using.

It's possible also that if the signal is stronger / more robust than needed they could use FEC 3/4 and APSK or some more efficient combination and use less of the capacity.

Internet/Broadband Capacity
The 70Gbps of ka-Sat is a bit misleading, though true. That assumes clear sky, ample dish, more efficient APSK, FEC and also is adding uplink and downlink capacities. Also sum of all 82 spots!
In reality on Irish spot more than 1000 customers at 10Mbps would exceed 50:1 contention,
If they get 20,000 customers per spot the contention is then 1000:1 and congestion limited by a very low cap.

There is no gap at Portsmouth or wherever on the English South Coast. At apparent gap of two or three spots any of the two or three spots can be used for Internet.

If the "Irish Spot" was full for Internet, many in Ireland would be able to use N.I. or Welsh spots with a bit larger dish (or same size dish near the spot).

See http://www.spacenews.com/satellite_telecom/110531-ka-sat-enters-service.html

Note it's not really Broadband, but always on Internet. The Latency is too high and cap too low.

Interestedly
If the UK was to use it for Regional TV, the England spot can be received in Scotland and Wales with larger dish (and in Northern part of Ireland an NI with a very big dish), but East Scotish and Welsh can't be received in England or Ireland (Scottish maybe in N.I.). West Scotland and NI share a spot that's likely OK in East Scotland and Ireland. But likely not OK in England and Wales.

Stinicker · 02-06-2011 6:17pm

Does anybody know when Saorsat is launched will RTÉ actively promote it? eg. will there be Saorsat approved receivers, similar to Saorview eg. with MHEG5 for Digital Aertel and the 7 day EPG?

Or will it be left to the masses to provide their own FTA HD Satellite box, quite alot of which don't have MHEG5 and are very ungranny proof. Ideally a receiver that works similar to the Saorview one would be the way to go; with automatic retuning for any new channels and the seven day epg and would work easily for the masses.

It would be similar to how well the branded Freesat boxes work on Astra 28.2° filtering out the junk and how messy a standard FTA receiver eg. a lidl box can be tuning in all the rubbish including tests and about 10 different versions of BBC1, ITV etc. While there will only be Saorsat channels on Ka-Sat @ 9.0° East, I still feel RTÉ should make the effort to get a good box out there especially as the people who will depend on Saorsat will quite often be in quite rural locations and may not have had Digital TV up to now so a simple easy solution would be the best, saving installers the hassle of having to go out to houses for such simple things. EG. HDMI's lack of automatic switching compared to scart is a total pain in the ass especially for people who can hardly turn on a TV to begin with.

My own mother is in her 60's and she can't work Sky hardly, she only ever watches RTE anyway in the evenings and I had to rig up the Sky HD box via the RF coax on UHF tuned to channel 0 to make it easier for her to watch! She's so bad with this sort of stuff that when her old mobile broke I had to get a second hand one on eBay of the exact same model as she couldn't figure out how to work the new one she got ! :eek:

watty · 03-06-2011 6:33pm

The courier arrived.

I only have a loan ...

Too hot to actually go near the dishes, so photos and explanations.

This is ONLY for mad experimenters. If you find wiring a plug challenging then wait for proper ka Band LNBF for Saorsat, likely 1/5th the price...

http://www.techtir.ie/hylas-odu-saorsat-1

Part 2 will measure performance on 44cm dish, 80cm multifeed and 90/95 Multifeed.

The horn is for a markedly elliptic dish, so I will design an easy to make circular one. I'll also see if the polarising conversion unit is easy to copy and adapted to LNB without an Orthomode converter (which is not needed for us).

Apogee · 04-06-2011 12:37am

watty wrote: »

The horn is for a markedly elliptic dish, so I will design an easy to make circular one.

You can buy feedhorns for that Hylas/Hughes gear on ebay.com for ~$15.

http://cgi.ebay.com/74M-Prodelin-Radio-Feedhorn-hughesnet-1W-/180658290512?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1012bf50

http://cgi.ebay.com/HughesNet-FeedHorn-Raven-Internet-Satellite-Dish-/300560554638?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45face1a8e

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hughes-Net-Satellite-Conversion-Adapter-Spaceway-Kit-/160594523815?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25642df6a7

RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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