Why do people think John Lennon is some sort of deity ?

blueyedson · 21-05-2011 01:10AM

<Ollie> wrote: »

Bit of a legend is Lennon, but he's no Dylan. Bob would never have done something as silly as the two-week long bed-in for peace for media attention.

Bit of a twat in fairness was Lennon. Dylan out-lives them all!!

yeah hehe Dylan usually goes out of his way to avoid media. He used to have people camping outside his house thinking he was a mesiah

JuneBug29 · 21-05-2011 01:34AM

I do like the Beatles. However, I believe both the Beatles and John Lennon were completely over rated. I think anyone who gets to the point of fame, or even near their point of fame, is over rated. Music is subjective and while some of us believe The Beatles, John Lennon or any other musician or artist to be god like, the fact is, It's not to everyone's taste.

You have to remember the time in which they came out in. My father played in many showbands and did very well for himself from it (well kind off, it's a long story :P). Around that time, music was coming out of the norms of big bands and coming into it's own. The Beatles were the first band to make it big (bar their early covers) who went on to do all their own songs and make it big from there. Of course they're going to be held in such high esteem. Ringo Star is by far the world's greatest drummer but he is the person who influenced more people, than anyone else, to pick up the drums. That is a well known fact amongst drummers. Drummers, due to their position on stage, get the back seat. Just cause John Lennon was out front and one of the driving forces behind The Beatles, and later did well as a solo artist, doesn't mean he was any better than Ringo. It was just that he was there when he was. Same with a lot of other musicians/artists.

I do also believe his early death contributed to his legacy. I know a lot of musicians who wouldn't be thought of as much as they are if they didn't meet an early grave. Just look at sitcoms like Father Ted. They finished while they were ahead (Dermot Morgan died AFTER they finished filming the last show. It didn't end cause of his death). Calling it a day before you end up spewing out crap makes you a genius (apparently). I don't think Kurt Cobain was a genius (shields self from attacks :P). I was a big Nirvana fan back in the day but he wasn't a genius. He so happened to show up at the time with music that people at the time wanted. If he was still alive today he would be seen as the guy in that band Nirvana who had that song "Smells Like Teen Spirit".

It all comes down to these factors -
The time they came along at
They were at the time seen as something new
They did something different (not necessarily genius)

These people do what they want. It just so happens that they come along when they do. It is chance to a certain extent when you think about it

ascanbe · 21-05-2011 01:42AM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I think the argument that it's because he died is pretty valid, as it arguably made a kind of martyr of him as he was relatively young (and murdered, making it more tragic), and came at a time when he was still basking in the Beatles/peace activism glory and people hadn't got sick of him and seen a lot of his bad side.

I get what you're saying; i was being a tad facetious.
I was just pointing out that he obviously did some work that touched a great number of people, for whatever reason, and that i wouldn't dismiss those people's reasons for being touched by it.

Latchy · 21-05-2011 01:48AM

Actually prior to his death if I was asked who on earth I would like to sit and have a chat with , John Lennon would have being my number one simply because I knew all his stuff , he had an arua about him and like millions I was simply a fan .

ascanbe · 21-05-2011 01:51AM

<Ollie> wrote: »

Bit of a legend is Lennon, but he's no Dylan. Bob would never have done something as silly as the two-week long bed-in for peace for media attention.

Bit of a twat in fairness was Lennon. Dylan out-lives them all!!

Ol' John didn't believe in Dylan; or Beatles, for that matter.

ascanbe · 21-05-2011 01:55AM

JuneBug29 wrote: »

I do like the Beatles. However, I believe both the Beatles and John Lennon were completely over rated. I think anyone who gets to the point of fame, or even near their point of fame, is over rated. Music is subjective and while some of us believe The Beatles, John Lennon or any other musician or artist to be god like, the fact is, It's not to everyone's taste.

You have to remember the time in which they came out in. My father played in many showbands and did very well for himself from it (well kind off, it's a long story :P). Around that time, music was coming out of the norms of big bands and coming into it's own. The Beatles were the first band to make it big (bar their early covers) who went on to do all their own songs and make it big from there. Of course they're going to be held in such high esteem. Ringo Star is by far the world's greatest drummer but he is the person who influenced more people, than anyone else, to pick up the drums. That is a well known fact amongst drummers. Drummers, due to their position on stage, get the back seat. Just cause John Lennon was out front and one of the driving forces behind The Beatles, and later did well as a solo artist, doesn't mean he was any better than Ringo. It was just that he was there when he was. Same with a lot of other musicians/artists.

I do also believe his early death contributed to his legacy. I know a lot of musicians who wouldn't be thought of as much as they are if they didn't meet an early grave. Just look at sitcoms like Father Ted. They finished while they were ahead (Dermot Morgan died AFTER they finished filming the last show. It didn't end cause of his death). Calling it a day before you end up spewing out crap makes you a genius (apparently). I don't think Kurt Cobain was a genius (shields self from attacks :P). I was a big Nirvana fan back in the day but he wasn't a genius. He so happened to show up at the time with music that people at the time wanted. If he was still alive today he would be seen as the guy in that band Nirvana who had that song "Smells Like Teen Spirit".

It all comes down to these factors -
The time they came along at
They were at the time seen as something new
They did something different (not necessarily genius)

These people do what they want. It just so happens that they come along when they do. It is chance to a certain extent when you think about it

Your dad was/is a drummer, clearly. Wasn't/isn't he, JuneBug29?:p
Anyway, good post; i agree with quite a bit of it.

JuneBug29 · 21-05-2011 02:12AM

ascanbe wrote: »

Your dad was/is a drummer, clearly. Wasn't/isn't he, JuneBug29?:p
Anyway, good post; i agree with quite a bit of it.

He was never a drummer. He played nearly everything else, guitar, bass, brass, trumpet, accordion, violin, piano, etc. You name it, he played it :P Strangely enough he never considered drums an instrument (not in the same way anyway :P)

The King of Moo · 21-05-2011 02:20AM

ascanbe wrote: »

I get what you're saying; i was being a tad facetious.
I was just pointing out that he obviously did some work that touched a great number of people, for whatever reason, and that i wouldn't dismiss those people's reasons for being touched by it.

Agreed, his death wouldn't have made him a legend if he hadn't touched so many people in the first place.

ascanbe · 21-05-2011 02:22AM

JuneBug29 wrote: »

He was never a drummer. He played nearly everything else, guitar, bass, brass, trumpet, accordion, violin, piano, etc. You name it, he played it :P Strangely enough he never considered drums an instrument (not in the same way anyway :P)

Oh, sound.

I just got the impression from your post that you held the position of drummer in high-esteem. Perhaps, you're one; if not, perhaps you should be. Anyway, your dad sounds talented.

Latchy · 21-05-2011 02:50AM

Lennon himself said that before Elvis there was nothing ...nothing that is except the likes of Glen Miller and Duke Ellington which by it's own standards of the day , was cool popular stuff back then and still is now because that's a part of musical history and important as anything .

But Lennon as young dude heard Elvis ,Bill Hailey Buddy Holly and rock n roll was still in it's infancy so anything before was put down as ' Squares Music ' .

Then from 1960 when the Shadows released Apache , it was the start of a new generation of music which evolved so fast and the Beatles were only a part of it but a major part simply because they were fine tuned into something that was right for the times and they were no different to hundreds of other bands in that they were influenced by and took from Elvis ,Holly , Orbison , Little Richard ( where they got the high falsetto /shaking heads/ 'oooooooohssss ' on stage from ) ,Carl Perkins, and many others so they were no different in that respect except McCartney and Lennon could also write their own songs , not just for them , but for other groups and when you put it all together it worked.

You can sometimes be listening to a music by another great artist or band and suddenly you'll hear a rift ,a note ,a vocal that will remind you of Beatle record because in many cases, art simply imitates and copys art

Footnote - at the ending and fade out on 'All You Need Is Love '' you can hear the trumpet rift from Glen Millers '' In The Mood ''......art imatating art again .

Goodnight ....

andydrew · 21-05-2011 03:06AM

Lennon was a tortured soul ! He turned his personal pain into the poetry and epic tunes that defined an era. I defy anyone to listen to songs like "Working Class Hero, Mother, Cold Turkey etc and not be affected . Like him or loath him his songs like "Give peace a chance" and "War is over(if you want it)" are the Iconic tunes of Peace and Love...He questioned authority,consumerism (the trow away society) and the shallowness of life and love... He was the first person to highlight his weaknesses and showed us all that inner examination and honesty can produce powerful real and positivity. Personally, I question "Deities" such as Jesus Christ Mohammad and Buddha . They have no relevance to my life... Lennon s music is relevant to me . He is NOT my God ... I have no God...I don t dance to any mans tune ... BUT ! I reflect on his body of work often and I mourn his passing at every anniversary... He touched my Soul in a way that only the Great artists do. 100 years from now his music will still be relevant important and IMO "Bigger than Jesus" ...:)

strobe · 21-05-2011 03:06AM

Don't think the guy was a god or anything...

But he done some good songs. Actually, come to think of it, rather than thinking he is a deity, people probably think he has (well, this is embarrassing) done a few really good songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lLs2dC9NaE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA9maAERDAs

Some of his work spoke to people and some people just flat out liked it. Suck it up. Sometimes people like things you don't. He was a talented guy and people appreciate talent. That's just the way it is...

Sandwlch · 21-05-2011 07:40AM

We have an instinct to deify others, in the dream that there is something better to humanity than we know in ourselves or see in the vast majority of people around us.

We do so if they fulfill a few simple criteria:
- do something to inspire us
- especially if they do it young and appear to do it entirely naturally
- colour their message with a strong tone of caring and wishing to improve humanity or society more than their own welfare
- die at the hand of others rather than of natural causes
- die young and while at the peak of their care-more-about-others-than-themselves message

The key is to die before people have the chance to see you make a few mistakes and that you are in fact human like the rest of us.

For example, Michael Collins, JFK, the jew from Nazareth. Or John Lennon.
Or a near miss. Obama had it all in place but has missed out at this stage. Had someone shot him a year or two ago he could have joined the deities. Now, he has made the fundamental mistake of staying around too long and people have woken up from the delusion.

Turpentine · 21-05-2011 07:48AM

He probably would have out-cheesed the Frog Chorus in the eighties given half the chance. Unfortunately I don't have the stats to back that up at the moment.

Da Shins Kelly · 21-05-2011 10:58AM

He was hugely influential musically, and preached a good message. I have no problem with people looking up to Lennon. At least he had something decent to say and actually had talent (even if he was a bit of a cock sometimes, he was just a human after all). He's better than some of the so-called 'icons' that people idolise today for reasons none other than celebrity and beauty.

Pwindedd · 21-05-2011 11:37AM

Imagine drives me mad - I really don't like that song - the melody leaves me cold and the words when boiled down into a paragraph describe a hellish existence when you look beyond the initial benefits.

"No heaven, no hell, above us only sky, people living for today, no countries, nothing to kill or die for, no religion, living life in peace, no possessions, no need for greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man, I hope someday you'll join us and the world will live as one !" (shudders inwardly as suicide rates soar in this new Lennotopia)

Could just be me but I think it sounds a bit sinister. You need some of the bad things in life to make the good things taste so sweet.

Just don't think it's one of his best !

bnt · 26-05-2011 11:02PM

Well, I don't. I always preferred the McCartney songs over the Lennon songs in the Beatles catalogue. They may have all been credited to Lennon/McCartney, but you could always tell. Then there's his attitude, as exemplified by this extract from Eric Clapton's autobiography, about their first meeting when the Yardbirds supported the Beatles in 1964:

Hanging out backstage at the Odeon was where I had my first meeting with the Beatles. Paul played the ambassador, coming out to meet us and saying hello. I remember him playing us the tune of “Yesterday,” which was half written, and asking everyone what they thought. He didn’t have the words yet. He was calling it “Scrambled Eggs,” and singing “Scrambled eggs…Everybody calls me scrambled eggs.”

George and I hit it off right away. He seemed to like what I did, and we talked shop a lot. He showed me his collection of Gretsch guitars, and I showed him my light-gauge strings, which I always bought from a shop called Clifford Essex on Earlham Street. I gave him some, and this was the start of what was to eventually become a long friendship; though not for a while, since the Beatles were then in another world to us. They were stars and climbing fast.

My meeting with John was a little different. One night I was on the tube, travelling to Hammersmith for one of the shows, and I got talking to an elderly American woman. She was lost and asking me for directions. She asked me what I did and where I was going, and I told her I was going to play guitar in a concert with the Beatles. “The Beatles?” she said, astonished, and then asked, “Can I come along?”

“If you want to, I’ll try and get you in,” I replied. When we arrived at the Odeon, I told the stage manager she was a friend of mine, and took her over to the Beatles’ dressing room, which was on the same level as the stage. They were getting ready to go on, but they took a moment and were really friendly and polite to her. But when we got to John, and I introduced her, he made a face of mock boredom and started doing **** movements inside his coat. I was really shocked, and quite offended, because I felt responsible for this harmless little old lady, and in a sense, of course, he was insulting me. I got to know John quite well later in our lives, and we were friends I suppose, but I was always aware that he was capable of doing some pretty weird stuff.

Latchy · 27-05-2011 09:59PM

bnt wrote: »

Well, I don't. I always preferred the McCartney songs over the Lennon songs in the Beatles catalogue. They may have all been credited to Lennon/McCartney, but you could always tell. Then there's his attitude, as exemplified by this extract from Eric Clapton's autobiography, about their first meeting when the Yardbirds supported the Beatles in 1964:

I read Clapton's autobiography last year ( great read to ) and remember that extract about Lennon's behaviour , which was a nasty way to behave in front of an old lady or anybody . Lennon also had a habit of sticking his tongue out while pulling gormless faces for the camera and news reels which some attribute to his childhood fascination with anybody who showed signs of a physical, mental illness .It showed the heartless bastard side of him, which I think was part of the mask to hide his own deep insecurity's.

On the musical front ,I like both His and Mc McCartney's contribution throughout the Beatles although solo Lennon is very self absorbed where as McCartney's ( with Wings ) was more melodic and Upbeat .Interestingly enough both 'Mother' ( Lennon) and ' Another day ' ( McCartney ) released not long after the break up , are my favorite post Beatles songs .

cml387 · 27-05-2011 10:11PM

Just post this for posterity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQAwj5fzj58

Jerichoholic · 27-05-2011 10:17PM

I dont know many people who think he was a God, he was just a popular musician who used his fame to try and get people to think a little differently. I don't recall Elvis holding peace rallys. Besides, at least he wasn't Bono.

mrsdewinter · 27-05-2011 10:51PM

Yeah, he's deified - I think most men go through a phase in their teens of thinking Lennon is god, and that there's a cohort of men in their 50s now who still think he's the wisest soul to ever walk the earth. I know that death added a different dimension to the legend, but I'm really glad he didn't survive into the Twitter age. Bearing witness to the fanboy adoration meted out to Gaiman, Dylan, et al, I think it's pretty clear Lennon would be unbearable.

But that extract from Clapton's autobiography is very telling (thanks BNT). It just confirms for me that he was a fairly bright schoolboy who wanted only to shock.

Musically, I get the fact that the Beatles were game-changers: writing their own material, and releasing records on their own label marked a sea change. I just think that there was more to the group than mouthy Lennon.

Why do people think John Lennon is some sort of deity ?

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