Why do people think John Lennon is some sort of deity ?

bayern282

The point I'm trying to make here is has any piddling three minute pop song ever stopped a war or prevented one, did Lennon's bed in for peace in Amsterdam stop the Vietnam war. I think not.

I do rate him musically, but maybe the importance of this medium is over rated and somewhat of a distraction, auditory cheesecake as I've seen it described once.

Liverpool's boycott of The Sun at local level or the mass turn out of Egyptians to overthrow Mubarak at national level are far more potent than blathering on about revolution while twanging a guitar.

abouttobebanned

Because he died.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Who?

Scuid Mhór

He preached a noble message and met a nonsensical end.

smokiebeverage

Scuid Mhór wrote: »

and met a nonsensical end.

There is no need to bring Yoko into it

Buceph

He's a better deity than the pope's imaginary friend.

Duggy747

He stayed in bed for 2 weeks for peace.

The world was so touched that they dropped their weapons and melted them into shapes of heart. Nobody died ever again and we all forgot what this thing called "murder" was.















Until Mortal Kombat came along and invented violence.

strokemyclover

Planting the seed is more important than reaping the crop

bayern282

But for instance, if John Lennon wasn't born or became a sheet metal worker at Cammell Laird instead.

Would it have made any real difference ?, ok, great songs and memories, but did they really alter human nature and our propensity for wars, hate and so on.

Shane St.

smokiebeverage wrote: »

There is no need to bring Yoko into it

hahahah brilliant

Wibbs

Complex bloke. musical genius, bit of a twat. A lot of it is down to him and similar being the first of the emo stylee teens/young adults. He blazed a trail, but at the same time a large chunk of his liverpudlian sensibilities kept him somewhat in check, so doesn't come across as quite as daft as many who followed.

bayern282

Complex bloke. musical genius, bit of a twat

at least most of us have two things in common with him !

The_Kew_Tour

Imagine all the people....

now it's stuck in yer heads

Orim

Because he was bigger than Jesus.

fontanalis

Didn't he have a version of Watching the Wheels with the words "here I am in my 20 million dollar home"?
A hypocrite who lived in luxury and more or less ignored one child.
Some great tunes though.

Wibbs

Orim wrote: »

Because he was bigger than Jesus.

Literally. Jesus or Yeshua, great in speech and deed, not so great in natural vertical accomplishment.

Havermeyer

Wibbs wrote: »

Complex bloke. musical genius, bit of a twat. A lot of it is down to him and similar being the first of the emo stylee teens/young adults. He blazed a trail, but at the same time a large chunk of his liverpudlian sensibilities kept him somewhat in check, so doesn't come across as quite as daft as many who followed.

Agree with most of that - apart from the emo part.

Of The Beatles, he was always the more complex. He seemed to be the one most affected by their fame. There's no denying he was an extremely talented songwriter/musician, but in later years he did come across as a twat.

Ringo was my favourite Beatle. :P

ascanbe

I'd imagine that people who regard John Lennon as a deity do so because they like him to the extent that they regard him as worthy of being regarded as a deity.

Duckworth_Luas

bayern282 wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make here is has any piddling three minute pop song ever stopped a war or prevented one, did Lennon's bed in for peace in Amsterdam stop the Vietnam war. I think not.

I do rate him musically, but maybe the importance of this medium is over rated and somewhat of a distraction, auditory cheesecake as I've seen it described once.

Liverpool's boycott of The Sun at local level or the mass turn out of Egyptians to overthrow Mubarak at national level are far more potent than blathering on about revolution while twanging a guitar.

All he was saying was give cheese a chance.

Now, where did I leave my coat?

OutlawPete

bayern282 wrote: »

.. the importance of this medium is over rated and somewhat of a distraction, auditory cheesecake as I've seen it described once.

Ah, you're just a jealous guy.

The King of Moo

As said previously, because he died, mainly.

If he'd lived to be an old man he'd probably have ended up being mocked and hated. He was hypocritical in many ways and had a horrible vicious streak.

I think his message of peace took hold in so many imaginations because he married it to fairly catchy, chanty/slogany songs, and the insanely iconic status of being one of the two main songwriters of The Beatles meant that there were always going to be lots of people who'd do whatever you said.

Sheeps

im ****ing glad he died i wish hed die again

The_Kew_Tour

Sheeps wrote: »

im ****ing glad he died i wish hed die again

That be some waste of time

strokemyclover

Sheeps wrote: »

im ****ing glad he died i wish hed die again

Imagine all the apostrophes!

ascanbe

The fact that he died is hardly an explanation; every person who has lived on this planet and is not currently alive has died and most of those people could hardly be said to be regarded as a deity by any significant number of people.

D1stant

bayern282 wrote: »

I do rate him musically, QUOTE]

Phew. The guy was a ****in genius. whether you rate him or not is hardly the point. He was also full of drugs most of his adult life so please forgive him for Yoko and dodgy quotes

Just listen to the music man :cool:

The Pontiac

Bit of a legend is Lennon, but he's no Dylan. Bob would never have done something as silly as the two-week long bed-in for peace for media attention.

Bit of a twat in fairness was Lennon. Dylan out-lives them all!!

The King of Moo

ascanbe wrote: »

The fact that he died is hardly an explanation; every person who has lived on this planet and is not currently alive has died and most of those people could hardly be said to be regarded as a deity by any significant number of people.

I think the argument that it's because he died is pretty valid, as it arguably made a kind of martyr of him as he was relatively young (and murdered, making it more tragic), and came at a time when he was still basking in the Beatles/peace activism glory and people hadn't got sick of him and seen a lot of his bad side.

Latchy

Next to JFK and Elvis , he was the most famous person on the planet who was also the most screwed up ,insecure and cynical of the 4 Beatles , which is reflected in many of his songs and he played along with the Beatle image / fame game up to a point .

He came in for a lot of Cynicism post Beatles /Yoko Ono period ,much of which was probably deserved and could be a bit of a knob at times who consumed to much LSD .But when he was assassinated the world shed real tears of sadness for a man who despite all his faults , had touched the heart of millions . So in death it's easy to see how the image becomes much bigger and people see him as a sort of diety .

bluefinger

If john lennon didn't exist it would be necessary to invent him

Latchy

If John had not met Paul at the village fete back in 1955 and discovered that opposites attract then the Beatles would have had to be invented in some other way shape or form ....

Like Hitler , Munroe ,Kennedy ,Ghandi , Elvis ,Muhammad Ali..etc , there seems to be a pattern thoughout history that these people are ment to be so J P G AND R were all meant to meet up in life and be who they became .....

It's all cosmic man ....:pac:

blueyedson

<Ollie> wrote: »

Bit of a legend is Lennon, but he's no Dylan. Bob would never have done something as silly as the two-week long bed-in for peace for media attention.

Bit of a twat in fairness was Lennon. Dylan out-lives them all!!

yeah hehe Dylan usually goes out of his way to avoid media. He used to have people camping outside his house thinking he was a mesiah

JuneBug29

I do like the Beatles. However, I believe both the Beatles and John Lennon were completely over rated. I think anyone who gets to the point of fame, or even near their point of fame, is over rated. Music is subjective and while some of us believe The Beatles, John Lennon or any other musician or artist to be god like, the fact is, It's not to everyone's taste.

You have to remember the time in which they came out in. My father played in many showbands and did very well for himself from it (well kind off, it's a long story :P). Around that time, music was coming out of the norms of big bands and coming into it's own. The Beatles were the first band to make it big (bar their early covers) who went on to do all their own songs and make it big from there. Of course they're going to be held in such high esteem. Ringo Star is by far the world's greatest drummer but he is the person who influenced more people, than anyone else, to pick up the drums. That is a well known fact amongst drummers. Drummers, due to their position on stage, get the back seat. Just cause John Lennon was out front and one of the driving forces behind The Beatles, and later did well as a solo artist, doesn't mean he was any better than Ringo. It was just that he was there when he was. Same with a lot of other musicians/artists.

I do also believe his early death contributed to his legacy. I know a lot of musicians who wouldn't be thought of as much as they are if they didn't meet an early grave. Just look at sitcoms like Father Ted. They finished while they were ahead (Dermot Morgan died AFTER they finished filming the last show. It didn't end cause of his death). Calling it a day before you end up spewing out crap makes you a genius (apparently). I don't think Kurt Cobain was a genius (shields self from attacks :P). I was a big Nirvana fan back in the day but he wasn't a genius. He so happened to show up at the time with music that people at the time wanted. If he was still alive today he would be seen as the guy in that band Nirvana who had that song "Smells Like Teen Spirit".

It all comes down to these factors -
The time they came along at
They were at the time seen as something new
They did something different (not necessarily genius)

These people do what they want. It just so happens that they come along when they do. It is chance to a certain extent when you think about it

ascanbe

The King of Moo wrote: »

I think the argument that it's because he died is pretty valid, as it arguably made a kind of martyr of him as he was relatively young (and murdered, making it more tragic), and came at a time when he was still basking in the Beatles/peace activism glory and people hadn't got sick of him and seen a lot of his bad side.

I get what you're saying; i was being a tad facetious.
I was just pointing out that he obviously did some work that touched a great number of people, for whatever reason, and that i wouldn't dismiss those people's reasons for being touched by it.

Latchy

Actually prior to his death if I was asked who on earth I would like to sit and have a chat with , John Lennon would have being my number one simply because I knew all his stuff , he had an arua about him and like millions I was simply a fan .

ascanbe

<Ollie> wrote: »

Bit of a legend is Lennon, but he's no Dylan. Bob would never have done something as silly as the two-week long bed-in for peace for media attention.

Bit of a twat in fairness was Lennon. Dylan out-lives them all!!

Ol' John didn't believe in Dylan; or Beatles, for that matter.

ascanbe

JuneBug29 wrote: »

I do like the Beatles. However, I believe both the Beatles and John Lennon were completely over rated. I think anyone who gets to the point of fame, or even near their point of fame, is over rated. Music is subjective and while some of us believe The Beatles, John Lennon or any other musician or artist to be god like, the fact is, It's not to everyone's taste.

You have to remember the time in which they came out in. My father played in many showbands and did very well for himself from it (well kind off, it's a long story :P). Around that time, music was coming out of the norms of big bands and coming into it's own. The Beatles were the first band to make it big (bar their early covers) who went on to do all their own songs and make it big from there. Of course they're going to be held in such high esteem. Ringo Star is by far the world's greatest drummer but he is the person who influenced more people, than anyone else, to pick up the drums. That is a well known fact amongst drummers. Drummers, due to their position on stage, get the back seat. Just cause John Lennon was out front and one of the driving forces behind The Beatles, and later did well as a solo artist, doesn't mean he was any better than Ringo. It was just that he was there when he was. Same with a lot of other musicians/artists.

I do also believe his early death contributed to his legacy. I know a lot of musicians who wouldn't be thought of as much as they are if they didn't meet an early grave. Just look at sitcoms like Father Ted. They finished while they were ahead (Dermot Morgan died AFTER they finished filming the last show. It didn't end cause of his death). Calling it a day before you end up spewing out crap makes you a genius (apparently). I don't think Kurt Cobain was a genius (shields self from attacks :P). I was a big Nirvana fan back in the day but he wasn't a genius. He so happened to show up at the time with music that people at the time wanted. If he was still alive today he would be seen as the guy in that band Nirvana who had that song "Smells Like Teen Spirit".

It all comes down to these factors -
The time they came along at
They were at the time seen as something new
They did something different (not necessarily genius)

These people do what they want. It just so happens that they come along when they do. It is chance to a certain extent when you think about it

Your dad was/is a drummer, clearly. Wasn't/isn't he, JuneBug29?:p
Anyway, good post; i agree with quite a bit of it.

JuneBug29

ascanbe wrote: »

Your dad was/is a drummer, clearly. Wasn't/isn't he, JuneBug29?:p
Anyway, good post; i agree with quite a bit of it.

He was never a drummer. He played nearly everything else, guitar, bass, brass, trumpet, accordion, violin, piano, etc. You name it, he played it :P Strangely enough he never considered drums an instrument (not in the same way anyway :P)

The King of Moo

ascanbe wrote: »

I get what you're saying; i was being a tad facetious.
I was just pointing out that he obviously did some work that touched a great number of people, for whatever reason, and that i wouldn't dismiss those people's reasons for being touched by it.

Agreed, his death wouldn't have made him a legend if he hadn't touched so many people in the first place.

ascanbe

JuneBug29 wrote: »

He was never a drummer. He played nearly everything else, guitar, bass, brass, trumpet, accordion, violin, piano, etc. You name it, he played it :P Strangely enough he never considered drums an instrument (not in the same way anyway :P)

Oh, sound.
I just got the impression from your post that you held the position of drummer in high-esteem. Perhaps, you're one; if not, perhaps you should be. Anyway, your dad sounds talented.

Latchy

Lennon himself said that before Elvis there was nothing ...nothing that is except the likes of Glen Miller and Duke Ellington which by it's own standards of the day , was cool popular stuff back then and still is now because that's a part of musical history and important as anything .

But Lennon as young dude heard Elvis ,Bill Hailey Buddy Holly and rock n roll was still in it's infancy so anything before was put down as ' Squares Music ' .

Then from 1960 when the Shadows released Apache , it was the start of a new generation of music which evolved so fast and the Beatles were only a part of it but a major part simply because they were fine tuned into something that was right for the times and they were no different to hundreds of other bands in that they were influenced by and took from Elvis ,Holly , Orbison , Little Richard ( where they got the high falsetto /shaking heads/ 'oooooooohssss ' on stage from ) ,Carl Perkins, and many others so they were no different in that respect except McCartney and Lennon could also write their own songs , not just for them , but for other groups and when you put it all together it worked.

You can sometimes be listening to a music by another great artist or band and suddenly you'll hear a rift ,a note ,a vocal that will remind you of Beatle record because in many cases, art simply imitates and copys art

Footnote - at the ending and fade out on 'All You Need Is Love '' you can hear the trumpet rift from Glen Millers '' In The Mood ''......art imatating art again .


Goodnight ....

andydrew

Lennon was a tortured soul ! He turned his personal pain into the poetry and epic tunes that defined an era. I defy anyone to listen to songs like "Working Class Hero, Mother, Cold Turkey etc and not be affected . Like him or loath him his songs like "Give peace a chance" and "War is over(if you want it)" are the Iconic tunes of Peace and Love...He questioned authority,consumerism (the trow away society) and the shallowness of life and love... He was the first person to highlight his weaknesses and showed us all that inner examination and honesty can produce powerful real and positivity. Personally, I question "Deities" such as Jesus Christ Mohammad and Buddha . They have no relevance to my life... Lennon s music is relevant to me . He is NOT my God ... I have no God...I don t dance to any mans tune ... BUT ! I reflect on his body of work often and I mourn his passing at every anniversary... He touched my Soul in a way that only the Great artists do. 100 years from now his music will still be relevant important and IMO "Bigger than Jesus" ...:)

strobe

Don't think the guy was a god or anything...

But he done some good songs. Actually, come to think of it, rather than thinking he is a deity, people probably think he has (well, this is embarrassing) done a few really good songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lLs2dC9NaE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA9maAERDAs

Some of his work spoke to people and some people just flat out liked it. Suck it up. Sometimes people like things you don't. He was a talented guy and people appreciate talent. That's just the way it is...

Sandwlch

We have an instinct to deify others, in the dream that there is something better to humanity than we know in ourselves or see in the vast majority of people around us.

We do so if they fulfill a few simple criteria:
- do something to inspire us
- especially if they do it young and appear to do it entirely naturally
- colour their message with a strong tone of caring and wishing to improve humanity or society more than their own welfare
- die at the hand of others rather than of natural causes
- die young and while at the peak of their care-more-about-others-than-themselves message

The key is to die before people have the chance to see you make a few mistakes and that you are in fact human like the rest of us.

For example, Michael Collins, JFK, the jew from Nazareth. Or John Lennon.
Or a near miss. Obama had it all in place but has missed out at this stage. Had someone shot him a year or two ago he could have joined the deities. Now, he has made the fundamental mistake of staying around too long and people have woken up from the delusion.

Turpentine

He probably would have out-cheesed the Frog Chorus in the eighties given half the chance. Unfortunately I don't have the stats to back that up at the moment.

Da Shins Kelly

He was hugely influential musically, and preached a good message. I have no problem with people looking up to Lennon. At least he had something decent to say and actually had talent (even if he was a bit of a cock sometimes, he was just a human after all). He's better than some of the so-called 'icons' that people idolise today for reasons none other than celebrity and beauty.

Pwindedd

Imagine drives me mad - I really don't like that song - the melody leaves me cold and the words when boiled down into a paragraph describe a hellish existence when you look beyond the initial benefits.

"No heaven, no hell, above us only sky, people living for today, no countries, nothing to kill or die for, no religion, living life in peace, no possessions, no need for greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man, I hope someday you'll join us and the world will live as one !" (shudders inwardly as suicide rates soar in this new Lennotopia)

Could just be me but I think it sounds a bit sinister. You need some of the bad things in life to make the good things taste so sweet.

Just don't think it's one of his best !

bnt

Well, I don't. I always preferred the McCartney songs over the Lennon songs in the Beatles catalogue. They may have all been credited to Lennon/McCartney, but you could always tell. Then there's his attitude, as exemplified by this extract from Eric Clapton's autobiography, about their first meeting when the Yardbirds supported the Beatles in 1964:

Hanging out backstage at the Odeon was where I had my first meeting with the Beatles. Paul played the ambassador, coming out to meet us and saying hello. I remember him playing us the tune of “Yesterday,” which was half written, and asking everyone what they thought. He didn’t have the words yet. He was calling it “Scrambled Eggs,” and singing “Scrambled eggs…Everybody calls me scrambled eggs.”

George and I hit it off right away. He seemed to like what I did, and we talked shop a lot. He showed me his collection of Gretsch guitars, and I showed him my light-gauge strings, which I always bought from a shop called Clifford Essex on Earlham Street. I gave him some, and this was the start of what was to eventually become a long friendship; though not for a while, since the Beatles were then in another world to us. They were stars and climbing fast.

My meeting with John was a little different. One night I was on the tube, travelling to Hammersmith for one of the shows, and I got talking to an elderly American woman. She was lost and asking me for directions. She asked me what I did and where I was going, and I told her I was going to play guitar in a concert with the Beatles. “The Beatles?” she said, astonished, and then asked, “Can I come along?”

“If you want to, I’ll try and get you in,” I replied. When we arrived at the Odeon, I told the stage manager she was a friend of mine, and took her over to the Beatles’ dressing room, which was on the same level as the stage. They were getting ready to go on, but they took a moment and were really friendly and polite to her. But when we got to John, and I introduced her, he made a face of mock boredom and started doing **** movements inside his coat. I was really shocked, and quite offended, because I felt responsible for this harmless little old lady, and in a sense, of course, he was insulting me. I got to know John quite well later in our lives, and we were friends I suppose, but I was always aware that he was capable of doing some pretty weird stuff.

Latchy

bnt wrote: »

Well, I don't. I always preferred the McCartney songs over the Lennon songs in the Beatles catalogue. They may have all been credited to Lennon/McCartney, but you could always tell. Then there's his attitude, as exemplified by this extract from Eric Clapton's autobiography, about their first meeting when the Yardbirds supported the Beatles in 1964:

I read Clapton's autobiography last year ( great read to ) and remember that extract about Lennon's behaviour , which was a nasty way to behave in front of an old lady or anybody . Lennon also had a habit of sticking his tongue out while pulling gormless faces for the camera and news reels which some attribute to his childhood fascination with anybody who showed signs of a physical, mental illness .It showed the heartless bastard side of him, which I think was part of the mask to hide his own deep insecurity's.

On the musical front ,I like both His and Mc McCartney's contribution throughout the Beatles although solo Lennon is very self absorbed where as McCartney's ( with Wings ) was more melodic and Upbeat .Interestingly enough both 'Mother' ( Lennon) and ' Another day ' ( McCartney ) released not long after the break up , are my favorite post Beatles songs .

cml387

Just post this for posterity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQAwj5fzj58

Jerichoholic

I dont know many people who think he was a God, he was just a popular musician who used his fame to try and get people to think a little differently. I don't recall Elvis holding peace rallys. Besides, at least he wasn't Bono.