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It's official: Gardai are above the law.

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Comments

  • #332
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Unfortunately the actual assault isn't described pretty well anywhere so it's hard to tell.

    It was described well enough for the Judge. There was more to it than a "few punches".


  • #333
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    How about this. Two people in court for assaulting each other. One filthy rich and one dirt poor. Both get a fine of €1000. Who gets the harsher punishment?

    That's like arguing about progressive tax rates. Absolutely ridiculous strawman there.

    And in that case, would you therefore advise that the poor man gets NO FINE AT ALL?!

    Because in this case, the analogy is like "Oh, you're poor. Ok then, €0 fine for you. No legal punishment whatsoever."


  • #334
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Can you at least explain your logic for why you believe a certain section of society should be treated differently to everyone else?

    Do you not share the belief that all human beings are equal?

    My 'logic' ,as you call it fairly simple.

    Children are treated differently than adults.

    Disadvantaged people and vulnerable people are treated differently.

    Serial wrongdoers are treated differently than once off people.

    handicapped people are treated differently to able bodied people.

    it's called 'society' friend.

    Don't let your seemingly anti establishment views cloud your common sense reasoning please.


  • #335
    cordub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭cordub


    I cannot understand why the judge CHANGED his decision on this case based on the the fact of how garda are treated in jail ,First of all the judge was fully aware of the fact that the person in front of him was a garda secondly he has had other gardai in front of him before and has not given them suspended sentances and thirdly there are a good few Gardai / prison Officers in the system at the moment who are taken care of as they are in protective custody !! So I fail to understand the reason he gave today it stinks of suspicion if you ask me !!! This garda committed a crime he should do the time :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • #336
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    "you guys"? Care to elaborate there? And I aint your bud btw! :)


    Surprising (or maybe not) that you cant see that it would be a big deal if the government legislated in order to ensure Gardaí received lenient sentences.

    Maybe next time you wont make a mistake and we can all avoid this :) No ones infallible!
    Where did I say that it wouldn't be a big deal if there was legislation in order to ensure Gardaí received lenient sentences?


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  • #337
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    That's like arguing about progressive tax rates. Absolutely ridiculous strawman there.

    And in that case, would you therefore advise that the poor man gets NO FINE AT ALL?!

    Because in this case, the analogy is like "Oh, you're poor. Ok then, €0 fine for you. No legal punishment whatsoever."

    The fact is that the big fine would be a much harsher punishment on the poor man. The execution of the law is not black and white. It is about justice.


  • #338
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    My 'logic' ,as you call it fairly simple.

    Children are treated differently than adults.

    This is because they have a mental incapacity to understand their crimes, not because the punishment would be harder on them. They are not as guilty as an adult, as they are not as responsible as an adult.
    Disadvantaged people and vulnerable people are treated differently.

    Why is this? If their brains are working then surely they can understand their crimes just as well as anyone else?
    Serial wrongdoers are treated differently than once off people.

    I never argued against that. If this guy were to beat someone up again, I would expect him to get more than 6 months.
    handicapped people are treated differently to able bodied people.

    Again, see mental capacity.
    it's called 'society' friend.

    I thought in our "society" we lived by a principle of equality? for everyone? Nobody is above the law and there is no elite class who can break laws?
    Don't let your seemingly anti establishment views cloud your common sense reasoning please.

    How is anything I have said in ANY WAY anti establishment? :confused::confused::confused:


  • #339
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Where did I say that it wouldn't be a big deal if there was legislation in order to ensure Gardaí received lenient sentences?
    You might see it as a big deal bud, but where I come from it isn't.

    Dancing are we?


  • #340
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    cordub wrote: »
    I cannot understand why the judge CHANGED his decision on this case based on the the fact of how garda are treated in jail ,First of all the judge was fully aware of the fact that the person in front of him was a garda secondly he has had other gardai in front of him before and has not given them suspended sentances and thirdly there are a good few Gardai / prison Officers in the system at the moment who are taken care of as they are in protective custody !! So I fail to understand the reason he gave today it stinks of suspicion if you ask me !!! This garda committed a crime he should do the time :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    The judge makes a decision based mostly on the factors put before him by the defence. The defence did not originally put forward the occupation as a mitigating factor.


  • #341
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    The fact is that the big fine would be a much harsher punishment on the poor man. The execution of the law is not black and white. It is about justice.

    Money and prison sentences are not the same thing. Would you argue that the poor man should receive a smaller prison sentence than the rich man?

    I would argue in terms of the fine that they should receive the same PROPORTIONAL fine. As in, take it as a percentage rather than a fixed sum, out of their general income.

    And so in this case, receiving no legal punishment at all purely because of your occupation is considered "justice", is it?

    Walking free after assaulting somebody with the knowledge that iyou can do it again and most likely get off on a technicality, that is "justice" in your eyes?


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  • #342
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    On that note I'm done here, hopefully these events have woken people up to the realities of the Garda position under the law.


  • #343
    westendgirlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,125 ✭✭✭westendgirlie


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    'Lies in court' now you will have evidence to back that up I'm sure.

    Terribly sorry you feel the word of a Garda would carry more weight that an ordinary citizen, but hey, I know where you are coming from, and wouldn't give too much weight to your opinions;)


    Good man yourself.:D

    attack the post not the poster methinks


  • #344
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Money and prison sentences are not the same thing. Would you argue that the poor man should receive a smaller prison sentence than the rich man?

    I would argue in terms of the fine that they should receive the same PROPORTIONAL fine. As in, take it as a percentage rather than a fixed sum, out of their general income.

    And so in this case, receiving no legal punishment at all purely because of your occupation is considered "justice", is it?

    Walking free after assaulting somebody with the knowledge that iyou can do it again and most likely get off on a technicality, that is "justice" in your eyes?

    Do you disagree that a Garda would have a more difficult time in prison?

    Why do you say he got off? Many people get convicted without prison sentences. Is a prison sentence the only form of justice acceptable to you?


  • #345
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Maci Numerous Mocha wrote: »
    I wonder if this logic would also apply to pedos. "Eh sorry your honour this guy shouldn't go to jail cause his crimes were so sick he will suffer more in prison"
    Actually...


  • #346
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    This is because they have a mental incapacity to understand their crimes, not because the punishment would be harder on them. They are not as guilty as an adult, as they are not as responsible as an adult.



    Why is this? If their brains are working then surely they can understand their crimes just as well as anyone else?



    I never argued against that. If this guy were to beat someone up again, I would expect him to get more than 6 months.



    Again, see mental capacity.



    I thought in our "society" we lived by a principle of equality? for everyone? Nobody is above the law and there is no elite class who can break laws?



    How is anything I have said in ANY WAY anti establishment? :confused::confused::confused:

    :confused:

    You are basing everything on crime.

    by your logic a young lad who loses the head under provocation and skelps a
    fellow once in ten years is remorseful and pays compo,should be treated exactly the same as a serial scumbag who is in trouble week in week out, glasses a dude and gives him /her the fingers..


    Nobody is above the law and there is no elite class who can break laws?

    I know that.Never said otherwise.


  • #347
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Do you disagree that a Garda would have a more difficult time in prison?

    Yes, on the grounds that so would a paedophile or a terrorist, and they already have established procedures to protect people who need protection in prison. A Gard is no different.

    Should we turn paedos out into the street because they have a harder time in prison? What about terrorists? Should we set them free too because of the abuse they might get in prison? Just let them free without any kind of alternative legal punishment?
    Why do you say he got off? Many people get convicted without prison sentences. Is a prison sentence the only form of justice acceptable to you?

    He received no legal punishment whatsoever. None. The court has essentially said "You are, indeed, guilty. Don't do it again. Now go home."


  • #348
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Dancing are we?

    Right on top of the pin pal.


  • #349
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    :confused:

    You are basing everything on crime.

    by your logic a young lad who loses the head under provocation and skelps a
    fellow once in ten years is remorseful and pays compo,should be treated exactly the same as a serial scumbag who is in trouble week in week out, glasses a dude and gives him /her the fingers..

    Repeat offenders get harsher sentences based on their previous convictions, and provocation is considered as well. If, however they got harsher sentences just because they happened to be from a particular county or they happened to work in Centra, that would be discrimination.

    IF this Gard got off on provocation then there might be a case for exploring that. but he didn't. He got off purely because of his employment. If he had not been a Gard, he would be serving 6 months in prison right now. This is the epitome of discrimination.
    Nobody is above the law and there is no elite class who can break laws?

    I know that.Never said otherwise.

    You're implying that it's ok for a Gard who broke the law to get off because he belongs to a particular group in society. Ergo you are saying that some groups deserve immunity from the laws the rest of us all have to follow.


  • #350
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    westendgirlie wrote: »
    attack the post not the poster methinks

    less of the backseat modding methinks;)


  • #351
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,335 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »


    Nobody is above the law and there is no elite class who can break laws?

    small print.


    the above does not apply in Ireland :D

    to garda, prison officers, the rich, politicians ah hell whoever

    did I mention priests and doctors?


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  • #352
    padd b1975
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    cordub wrote: »
    I cannot understand why the judge CHANGED his decision on this case based on the the fact of how garda are treated in jail ,First of all the judge was fully aware of the fact that the person in front of him was a garda secondly he has had other gardai in front of him before and has not given them suspended sentances and thirdly there are a good few Gardai / prison Officers in the system at the moment who are taken care of as they are in protective custody !! So I fail to understand the reason he gave today it stinks of suspicion if you ask me !!! This garda committed a crime he should do the time :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
    Allow me to cut through the pages of irrelevant argument if you will?
    The judge made a technical legal error in sentencing. he failed to take into account a legal sub clause regarding mitigating circumstances when sentencing a garda. This was brought to his attention by the defence. The judge then altered his sentence according to this sub clause. The conviction still stands. Clear enough for you?


  • #353
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    You might see it as a big deal, but where I come from it isn't.
    Where would that be?
    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    How about this. Two people in court for assaulting each other. One filthy rich and one dirt poor. Both get a fine of €1000. Who gets the harsher punishment?
    And you wont find it to be any different in any other country that I have lived in anyway, so I don't see what your point is. Not even the United States will give a harsher fine to someone for the pure sake of being wealthier.


  • #354
    cordub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭cordub


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    Do you disagree that a Garda would have a more difficult time in prison?

    Why do you say he got off? Many people get convicted without prison sentences. Is a prison sentence the only form of justice acceptable to you?
    I know for a fact that the garda would NOT have a difficult time in prison , he will be one of the lucky people in prison at the moment as in he will have a cell all to himself unlike the majority of those in prison!!!The wing that he would be on will be people who are being protected fully in the system ie gardai , prison officers and the like, He would not in any danger whatsoever!!!!! That arguement is rubbish , he has gotten off scot free so long as he doesnt re offend as then he will have to serve the sentence!!! HE was not fined or given community service either !!! the fact that he was a garda should not have been taken into consideration IMO the arguement of an earlier poster that his solicitor failed to make this case in his defence arguement should not have come into I think , Are we supposed to be stupid enough to think that the judge did NOT know that the person before him was a garda and did not take that into consideration when making his judgement !!!!!!


  • #355
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    Yes, on the grounds that so would a paedophile or a terrorist, and they already have established procedures to protect people who need protection in prison. A Gard is no different.

    Should we turn paedos out into the street because they have a harder time in prison? What about terrorists? Should we set them free too because of the abuse they might get in prison? Just let them free without any kind of alternative legal punishment?



    He received no legal punishment whatsoever. None. The court has essentially said "You are, indeed, guilty. Don't do it again. Now go home."

    No. A paedophile would be treated badly in prisone beacuase of the vile things he has done. A Garda would be treated harshly because of the good things he has done. Do you not see the difference?

    He received a suspended sentence. That is a bad thing to have over you, especially harsh for a first offence. If he ever gets in trouble again it will be activated and he will do the full time.


  • #356
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Right on top of the pin pal.
    Leave the pin pals outta this


    http://www.ardyouth.com/files/pin-pals2.png


  • #357
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    cordub wrote: »
    I know for a fact that the garda would NOT have a difficult time in prison , he will be one of the lucky people in prison at the moment as in he will have a cell all to himself unlike the majority of those in prison!!!The wing that he would be on will be people who are being protected fully in the system ie gardai , prison officers and the like, He would not in any danger whatsoever!!!!! That arguement is rubbish , he has gotten off scot free so long as he doesnt re offend as then he will have to serve the sentence!!! HE was not fined or given community service either !!! the fact that he was a garda should not have been taken into consideration IMO the arguement of an earlier poster that his solicitor failed to make this case in his defence arguement should not have come into I think , Are we supposed to be stupid enough to think that the judge did NOT know that the person before him was a garda and did not take that into consideration when making his judgement !!!!!!

    He was not fined because he provided substantial compensation to the victim. His time in prison would have been very difficult because, unlike most prisoners, he would have a much more restricted living than they would.


  • #358
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    R



    You're implying that it's ok for a Gard who broke the law to get off because he belongs to a particular group in society. Ergo you are saying that some groups deserve immunity from the laws the rest of us all have to follow.

    You are not reading my posts.

    The only thing I am discussing here is the application of justice.

    That's not the law my friend.

    I am not saying anyone deserves immunity from the law, far from it.

    the judge used a principle of law to suspend the Guard's sentence.

    It would appear he had paid substantial compensation

    it would appear he will lose his job

    it would appear that he will have a 'reputation' not conjusive to further employment.


    I would not call that 'getting away with it'.

    I would totally condemn his actions and would have very little sympathy for him in fact.


  • #359
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Seanbeag1 wrote: »
    He was not fined because he provided substantial compensation to the victim. His time in prison would have been very difficult because, unlike most prisoners, he would have a much more restricted living than they would.


    Would he not be sent to arbour hill prison ,where people under threat from other prisoners are sent and the regime there a little more lenient ?


  • #360
    cordub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭cordub


    padd b1975 wrote: »
    Allow me to cut through the pages of irrelevant argument if you will?
    The judge made a technical legal error in sentencing. he failed to take into account a legal sub clause regarding mitigating circumstances when sentencing a garda. This was brought to his attention by the defence. The judge then altered his sentence according to this sub clause. The conviction still stands. Clear enough for you?
    IM well aware of the judges so called legal error. Im sure he was well aware of the issue of MITIGATING circumstances hes is a judge many a year and has adjudicated over many a case involving gardai and prison officer in his time. By the way I was sure that the case was stated that the defendants legal representative was the one who failed to mention in his clients DEFENCE about mitigating circumstances !!!!!! is that clear enough for YOU!!!


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  • #361
    Paddy De Plasterer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭Paddy De Plasterer


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    small print.


    the above does not apply in Ireland :D

    to garda, prison officers, the rich, politicians ah hell whoever

    did I mention priests and doctors?

    I bet the DPP will appeal to Court of Criminal Appeal, and he will find himself back in prison.


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