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    #2312
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    getz wrote: »
    the queen raised two huge sums of money .the quakers [a lancashire religion] did more than anyone,even more than the roman church to help the irish,scotland who tried to help,had its own problem ,but they at least could walk into the richer parts of the UK.take it from me ,the ruling class dident care less about the irish/english/welsh or scotish unwashed.

    The second part is certainly true but Victoria did also turn away donations from the Turkish sultan as it was greater than her own donation and she didnt want to seem out done


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    #2313
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    sensibleken wrote: »
    The second part is certainly true but Victoria did also turn away donations from the Turkish sultan as it was greater than her own donation and she didnt want to seem out done

    Victoria knew nothing about this.

    The Sultan found out what she had donated and didn't want to embarrass her by donating more.

    And there were no ships sent to Drogheda either.


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    #2314
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    sensibleken wrote: »
    The second part is certainly true but Victoria did also turn away donations from the Turkish sultan as it was greater than her own donation and she didnt want to seem out done

    Although the sultan ignored her refusal and sent ships in anyway.


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    #2315
    Magic Eight Ball
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭Magic Eight Ball


    I'd rather have Michael Bay apologise for his entire career then have the Queen apologise for the past.


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    #2316
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Although the sultan ignored her refusal and sent ships in anyway.

    Sorry, but that is just not true and all stems from some bull**** story about the origins of Drogheda's crest.


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    #2317
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Victoria knew nothing about this.

    The Sultan found out what she had donated and didn't want to embarrass her by donating more.

    And there were no ships sent to Drogheda either.

    are you sure? most sources I have come accross stated that it was on request


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    #2318
    Opelfruit
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Opelfruit


    sensibleken wrote: »
    thats not true at all. there were 50,000 deaths in belgium and France. Prussia suffered heavily and 1.7 million people uprooted in Scotland

    Uprooted =/= dead. At least that many were uprooted in Ireland, including the 1 million who left on coffin ships. 200,000 people disappeared from Co Roscommon alone.


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    #2319
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Opelfruit wrote: »
    Uprooted =/= dead. At least that many were uprooted in Ireland, including the 1 million who left on coffin ships. 200,000 people disappeared from Co Roscommon alone.

    yes im quite aware of that. I was saying your suggestion that only people died in Ireland except for 12 in scotland was untrue


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    #2320
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    sensibleken wrote: »
    are you sure? most sources I have come accross stated that it was on request

    It may have been requested by the British ambassador, certainly not Victoria.

    Read a proper history source, like the UCC archives, and you'll find the true events.


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    #2321
    Opelfruit
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Opelfruit


    sensibleken wrote: »
    yes im quite aware of that. I was saying your suggestion that only people died in Ireland except for 12 in scotland was untrue
    Where else in the UK did people die?


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    #2322
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It may have been requested by the British ambassador, certainly not Victoria.

    Read a proper history source, like the UCC archives, and you'll find the true events.

    Ah...theres me reading only those artificial sources all this time. from now on its 100% organic


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    #2323
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Opelfruit wrote: »
    Where else in the UK did people die?

    From your line I thought you were suggesting that people only died in Ireland due to the european potato blight. were you only talking about the UK?


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    #2324
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Not forgetting that the whole of Ireland was part of the UK back then . . .


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    #2325
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Ah...theres me reading only those artificial sources all this time. from now on its 100% organic

    Try the fat free ones as well (or is that inapropriate :-))


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    #2326
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Victoria knew nothing about this.

    The Sultan found out what she had donated and didn't want to embarrass her by donating more.

    And there were no ships sent to Drogheda either.

    Thats simply not true and if it was ture that she didnt know about ships coming to land in one of her colonies the government had serious security issues


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    #2327
    purplepanda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,055 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    getz wrote: »
    .take it from me ,the ruling class dident care less about the irish/english/welsh or scotish unwashed.

    The ordinary English people, never really gained much at all from the biggest & richest empire in history.

    Industrial slavery & the workhouse, child labour & poverty, indentured & fee labour, widespread disease & malnutrition, overcrowded & decrepit housing, very limited voting rights if at all for men & none for women, deportation for minor & political crimes under a vicious penal code. Severe oppression of those that campaigned for political rights such as the Chartists, Tolpudle Martys & countless other reformers & campaigners.


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    #2328
    Opelfruit
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Opelfruit


    sensibleken wrote: »
    From your line I thought you were suggesting that people only died in Ireland due to the european potato blight. were you only talking about the UK?
    Yeah! The trolls are claiming that Ireland was better off pre Independence. Not true when in a northern European wide crisis the only part of the UK where people were allowed to die was in Ireland.


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    #2329
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Thats simply not true and if it was ture that she didnt know about ships coming to land in one of her colonies the government had serious security issues

    You obviously missed the fuss after Mary Mac commented on this during her visit to Turkey then.

    It appears that there were no ships.


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    #2330
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Opelfruit wrote: »
    Yeah! The trolls are claiming that Ireland was better off pre Independence. Not true when in a northern European wide crisis the only part of the UK where people were allowed to die was in Ireland.

    oh sorry. I dont have any idea how many people died in mainland britain but of course the situations are incomparible. Its rediculous to ascert that ordinary Irish people were better off pre-independance. It was hardly a paradise after either though.


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    #2331
    gigino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭gigino


    There was poverty in every country in the world 100 years ago. However its also true that Britain built an infrastructure here to help reduce poverty, and which was pretty good at the time - and some would say has not been improved much since. Railways, harbours, canals, legal system, fine old buildings / world class architecture, lighthouses, universities etc. It took a day for a letter to go from Dublin to London then. It takes longer now - ( not to mention costing more than it takes to post a letter the other way ).

    Despite hundreds of billions of euro have we built or done much in 100 years ? O'Connell street has changed, we made it worse by putting up a needle in the sky to match the junkie + sex shop image. The countryside has changed with ghost estates. Many of the old railways etc closed. Harbours silted up. Many shops closed. Banks bust. Who was it that questioned are we capable of self-governance ?


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    #2332
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    gigino wrote: »
    There was poverty in every country in the world 100 years ago. However its also true that Britain built an infrastructure here to help reduce poverty, and which was pretty good at the time - and some would say has not been improved much since. Railways, harbours, canals, legal system, fine old buildings / world class architecture, lighthouses, universities etc. It took a day for a letter to go from Dublin to London then. It takes longer now - ( not to mention costing more than it takes to post a letter the other way ).

    Despite hundreds of billions of euro have we built or done much in 100 years ? O'Connell street has changed, we made it worse by putting up a needle in the sky to match the junkie + sex shop image. The countryside has changed with ghost estates. Many of the old railways etc closed. Harbours silted up. Many shops closed. Banks bust. Who was it that questioned are we capable of self-governance ?

    If your taking Dublin as an example then look at the tenement system that was at play. If sure people were delighted there was magnificent rail lines they couldnt afford to use, universities they couldnt attend. Im at a loss as to how lighthouses relieved poverty.


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    #2333
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Opelfruit wrote: »
    The root causes of the Great Famine existed all across northern Europe. Only in Ireland did people die (well 12 people died in the Scottish Highlands).

    This is untrue. The system of land ownership, inheritance and distribution in Ireland was quite distinct from that which existed in Britain. No less than J.S. Mill made this very clear in Essays on England, Ireland and Empire. The British land ownership system in Ireland alone worked against the indigenous population in many fundamental ways. A summary can be found in (part of) the following very informative Radharc documentary:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0LtW7g4os8






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    #2334
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    gigino wrote: »
    However its also true that Britain built an infrastructure here to help reduce poverty

    Er, it didn't. The only time it came near that was in the Killing Home Rule with Kindness policy of the Tories in the late nineteenth century, which implicitly was not about helping reduce poverty but rather about granting the Irish massive reforms (particularly in land reform) in order to buy them off from seeking home rule. Why do I get the distinct impression you are wholly unfamiliar with the above policy. :rolleyes:


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    #2335
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    gigino wrote: »
    Despite hundreds of billions of euro have we built or done much in 100 years ? O'Connell street has changed, [B]we made it worse [/B]by putting up a needle in the sky to match the junkie + sex shop image. The countryside has changed with ghost estates. Many of the old railways etc closed. Harbours silted up. Many shops closed. Banks bust. Who was it that questioned are we capable of self-governance ?

    There is something quite frankly deeply unbelievable about your use of 'we' to link yourself with Ireland. Your comments on this thread to-date have been marked by a deep animosity to the Irish people, an animosity matched only by your enthusiasm for British royalty and proclaiming what a failure Irish independence is.

    Please go away.


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    #2336
    Dionysus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    PS: For somebody so rabidly anti-Irish and pro-British, your command of the Queen's English is abysmal, and consistently so. You are patently in no position to look down on Irish people. Like your fellow British nationalist posters, Getz and Lord Sutch, it appears that your nationalism is a poor attempt at compensating for a very low sense of personal achievement. Quelle surprise.


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    #2337
    end a eknny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭end a eknny


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Relative to FF rule, I reckon it did!
    is this the same f.f that changed the road network from dangerous dirt tracks with grass growing up the middle of them with 20 year old cars with no test. to one with brand new cars on spanking new motorways the same f.f that changed the country from a sh1thole with old run down houses and massive unemployment and emmigration to a country with modern house and facilities and mass immigration and low unemployment. the same f.f that changed the country from one of poverty, low wages and welfare payments. to one of the highest paid, highest rates of welfare shame on them. seriously i for one can see the vast improvement in the country since f.g took over


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    #2338
    end a eknny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭end a eknny


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Er, it didn't. The only time it came near that was in the Killing Home Rule with Kindness policy of the Tories in the late nineteenth century, which implicitly was not about helping reduce poverty but rather about granting the Irish massive reforms (particularly in land reform) in order to buy them off from seeking home rule. Why do I get the distinct impression you are wholly unfamiliar with the above policy. :rolleyes:
    presumably the version of irish history you get in english schools is more than slightly tainted


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    #2339
    shadowninty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,654 ✭✭✭shadowninty


    end a eknny wrote: »
    is this the same f.f that changed the road network from dangerous dirt tracks with grass growing up the middle of them with 20 year old cars with no test. to one with brand new cars on spanking new motorways the same f.f that changed the country from a sh1thole with old run down houses and massive unemployment and emmigration to a country with modern house and facilities and mass immigration and low unemployment. the same f.f that changed the country from one of poverty, low wages and welfare payments. to one of the highest paid, highest rates of welfare shame on them. seriously i for one can see the vast improvement in the country since f.g took over
    at least you don't claim to have an understanding of economics like the other guy (was it this thread?)


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    #2340
    end a eknny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 646 ✭✭✭end a eknny


    shadowninty wrote: »
    at least you don't claim to have an understanding of economics like the other guy (was it this thread?)
    you dont remember what the country was like 20 years ago.simple economics you want new stuff you get new stuff you have to pay for new stuff


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    #2341
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    end a eknny wrote: »
    you dont remember what the country was like 20 years ago.simple economics you want new stuff you get new stuff you have to pay for new stuff

    I remember it well, a country finally being steered in the right direction, only for FF to blow it all in a few years of Megalomaniac type madness.
    All that wasted money, projects costing way more than their initial budgets.


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