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Bloody Sunday (1920)

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    #62
    ISDW
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭ISDW


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    I think Gerry Adams is a lot more like Michael Collins than you think. Except he managed to take nearly all the IRA with him.

    I think WT has a point. Micheal Collins was able to move around quite freely, probably due to the lack of 'media' at the time, I'm sure if there had been lots of photos and video footage available to the British then he couldn't have done that, and may well have had to wear balaclavas etc.

    He also was a brilliant guerilla fighter.

    I don't support and never have supported the IRA, but I do admire Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness now for having the courage to go the political route. I think they have very much followed in Collins' footsteps.


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    #63
    Promac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭Promac


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    But you still won't apologise for supporting a group that murdered many of my fellow Irishmen ?

    I find that unacceptable and I demand that apology.

    Can you not see where stances like that lead us ?

    Look who's talkin...

    For you it's murderin civilians but for US it's preventing OUR civilians being murdered by them. Nice and safe down in Limerick though isn't it?


    (Anyone spot the irony there?)


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    #64
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Ah but she did acknowledge it. Your earlier gripe was that she didn't apologise.

    Good to see that you're improving. :) Keep it up!
    No she didn't. She belittled peoples suffering by saying that things were "not always benign".


    Honestly Liam, if the Pope comes over(seems likely) and makes a speech in which everyone expects him to address the abuse, do you think that him describing the relationship between the church and the Irish people as "not always benign" would be a true acknowledgement of the horrors that his institution unleashed on the Irish people? Or would it be belittling them and playing them down? Honestly now Liam.


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    #65
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,769 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    mgmt wrote: »
    The 1918 general election gave consent to Michael Collins. Gerry Adams never had the same mandate for his actions.

    I was addressing your comparison of those at 1916 with militant republicans of the last 40yrs. You called a Gerry Adams a thug compared to Collins yet Collins used similar tactics to SF/IRA


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    #66
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I was addressing your comparison of those at 1916 with militant republicans of the last 40yrs. You called a Gerry Adams a thug compared to Collins yet Collins used similar tactics to SF/IRA
    You can be sure that if Collins knew how to make a bomb from fertilizer he would have used it.


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    #67
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I was addressing your comparison of those at 1916 with militant republicans of the last 40yrs. You called a Gerry Adams a thug compared to Collins yet Collins used similar tactics to SF/IRA

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb


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    #68
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    mgmt wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb
    I don't think you will find many people who will defend that, I certainly won't.



    You have all kinds of conspiracy theory's saying that things like that were done to disgust republicans and get them to play along with Gerry and Martys vision.


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    #69
    POINTBREAK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭POINTBREAK


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    I don't think you will find many people who will defend that, I certainly won't.



    You have all kinds of conspiracy theory's saying that things like that were done to disgust republicans and get them to play along with Gerry and Martys vision.
    -
    Really. The No True Scotsman argument?


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    #70
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    If ever there was a West Brit its Kevin Myers. (If someone can think of a better description let me know) I'm surprised he could stop **** furiously over the queens visit long enough to put pen to paper.


    I had a good laugh at this, especially the last bit.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1MqEs0c28g

    Oh Jesus. If only Myers could take himself as seriously as the rest of us do....

    What a petulant whingebag of a drama queen, as always. Fair play to the interviewer whoever he was.


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    #71
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,305 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    No she didn't. She belittled peoples suffering by saying that things were "not always benign".


    Honestly Liam, if the Pope comes over(seems likely) and makes a speech in which everyone expects him to address the abuse, do you think that him describing the relationship between the church and the Irish people as "not always benign" would be a true acknowledgement of the horrors that his institution unleashed on the Irish people? Or would it be belittling them and playing them down? Honestly now Liam.

    Belittled.

    That must mean she belittled herself then as family of one of the victims of the struggle.

    As for 1920, unfortunately the state, whoever it is, is more answerable than terrorists or freedom fighters or insurgents, whatever phrase you want to use.

    Reprisals don't end well, on either side. One thing everybody should have learned from Irish history.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #72
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Who actually did it? The ambiguous term "british forces" or else soldiers is used but Myers wrote a recent article claiming it was the RIC
    I always thought the general consenus was that a combination of Black and Tans(which I consider to be british recruits to the RIC,members of the ADRIC(Auxilliary Division of the RIC which was predominantly ex british army officers) and Irish members of the RIC were the perpertrators of the massacre.Myers likes to concentrate on the Irish involvement in this while overlooking the fact that they were all Crown forces on the day.
    Regards,
    KK.


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    #73
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Something I can never understand is why the Black & Tans/ Auxilaries walked into Croke Park during a gaelic match shooting up the place & killing so many :confused: OK, I know that there were thirteen of forteen Policemen & or (Anti Rebel spies) shot in their beds by the rebels the night before, but why did the reprisal take place in Croke Park ??? Were the muredrers from the night before in the crowd? Why walk into Croke Park & start shooting randomly?

    I just don't get it, so I am asking a question "Why were they singled out & shot in Croke Park" ?


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    #74
    cosanostra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 888 ✭✭✭cosanostra


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Something I can never understand is why the Black & Tans/ Auxilaries walked into Croke Park during a gaelic match shooting up the place & killing so many :confused: OK, I know that there were thirteen of forteen Policemen & or (Anti Rebel spies) shot in their beds by the rebels the night before, but why did the reprisal take place in Croke Park ??? Were the muredrers from the night before in the crowd? Why walk into Croke Park & start shooting randomly?

    I just don't get it, so I am asking a question "Why were they singled out & shot in Croke Park" ?

    No they weren't singled out the black and tans moved into croke park and fired at anything that moved, they done this in croke park because gaa was seen as a rebel organisation and was outlawed at one point by the brittish


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    #75
    mgmt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    I believe that match at Croker was to raise funds for IRA POWs.


    The Security Plan that day:
    The ground was to be surrounded and pickets placed at specified points, e.g. on the railway and at the three known exits. One infantry platoon was to be kept in reserve and at 3.15pm two (army) armoured cars would meet the mixed RIC and auxiliary police at Fitzroy Avenue (opposite the main entrance). A quarter of an hour before the end of the match a special intelligence officer would warn the crowd by megaphone that anybody trying to leave other than by the exits would be shot, and that all males would be stopped and searched.


    Here's some statements:
    DMP officer

    ‘On Sunday 21st inst. I was on duty outside the main entrance to Croke Park in Jones’s Road. At about 3.25 p.m. I saw six or seven large lorries accompanied by two armoured cars, one in front and one behind, pass along the Clonliffe Road from Drumcondra towards Ballybough. Immediately after a small armoured car came across Jones’s Road from Fitzroy Avenue and pulled up at the entrance of the main gate. Immediately after that, three small Crossley lorries pulled up in Jones’s Road. There were about ten or twelve men dressed in RIC uniforms in each. When they got out of the cars they started firing in the air which I thought was blank ammunition, and almost immediately firing started all round the ground.’
    ‘On November 21st 1920 I was in the second lorry of the convoy to Croke Park. The lorry halted just over the canal bridge. I saw no civilians on the bridge. There were some civilians in the passage leading to the turnstiles. I got out and went to the turnstiles as quickly as I could. As I got to the turnstiles I heard shots. I am certain they were revolver shots, a few shots fired quickly. They were fired inside the field. I tried to get through the turnstiles and found that they were locked. When getting over them a bullet hit the wall convenient to my head. This was the wall on the right hand side inside the archway and splinters of brick and mortar hit me in the face. It could not have been fired from outside the field. As I got inside I landed on my hands and feet. I saw young men aged between 20 and 25 running stooping among the crowd, away from me between the fence and the wall. I pursued and discharged my revolver in their direction. My duties were identification of persons. I was in plain clothes having a Glengarry cap in my pocket for identification by my own men if necessary. Having been fired at I used my own discretion in returning fire. I aimed at individual young men who were running away trying to conceal themselves in the crowd. I used a .450 revolver and service ammunition. I chased them across the ground nearly to the wall on the east side. I then saw that a number of people were going back towards the main gate by which I came in. I rushed to that gate and took up my position outside to try and carry out my duties of identification. I stayed there until the ground was cleared, that is about an hour and a half.’
    ‘On 21st November I was in the first car of the convoy detailed to go to Croke Park. Immediately we came to the canal bridge on the rise overlooking the park I observed several men rushing back from the top of the bridge towards the entrance gate of the park. I observed three of them turning backward as they ran and discharging revolvers in our direction. Almost immediately the firing appeared to be taken up by members of the crowd inside the enclosure. At this time the members of our party were jumping out of the cars. Most of them rushed down the incline towards the entrance gate.’

    http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume11/issue2/features/?id=113649


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    #76
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    Good article here http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3686/is_1_38/ai_n29017254/?tag=mantle_skin;content


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    #77
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    mgmt wrote: »
    I believe that match at Croker was to raise funds for IRA POWs.

    Well thats the 1st time I have ever heard that, so it wasn't just your average GAA match, it was a match organised to fund the IRA who had just shot thirteen or fouteen Policemen the night before!!! But this still doesn't explain why the Black & Tans shot so many innocent people dead :cool:


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    #78
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Well thats the 1st time I have ever heard that, so it wasn't just your average GAA match, it was a match organised to fund the IRA who had just shot thirteen or fouteen Policemen the night before!!! But this still doesn't explain why the Black & Tans shot so many innocent people dead :cool:

    reprisals against civilian population was common policy of the Auxies. Similar atrocities included the burning of Cork city, the seige of tralee where no food was allowed in for a week. The policy of attacks on civilian population was officially sanctioned by the British government at the time according to a British Labour commision report from 1921


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    #79
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,069 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    sensibleken wrote: »
    reprisals against civilian population was common policy of the Auxies. Similar atrocities included the burning of Cork city, the seige of tralee where no food was allowed in for a week. The policy of attacks on civilian population was officially sanctioned by the British government at the time according to a British Labour commision report from 1921

    But was there any suggestion that the Auxies went after the perpetrators of the murderers from the night before? I thought I heard somewhere that they got a tip off that the killers were hiding out in Croke Park? So I am just asking, was there a reason why the Auxies turned up at Croke Park (as opposed to the local pub)!


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    #80
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    LordSutch wrote: »
    But was there any suggestion that the Auxies went after the perpetrators of the murderers from the night before? I thought I heard somewhere that they got a tip off that the killers were hiding out in Croke Park? So I am just asking, was there a reason why the Auxies turned up at Croke Park (as opposed to the local pub)!

    I dont think it was anything other than a high profile place with lots of republicans. They initially wanted to search people for weapons and probably thought they would get more than simply raiding a pub. For whatever reason they turned up and just started shooting.

    I dont think there was any suggestion of them trying to target the perpetrators specifically, ie handing out photos and saying 'these are the men we're looking for'


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    #81
    minkynuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭minkynuts


    But the English had a good example of machine gunning, sword hacking women and children to death from 1890 at Wounded Knee, by the 7th Calvary,of which the largest nationality was Irish. 300 women and children died that day. I have a
    friend visiting Ireland this year who is Sioux Indian, and she is going to give a lecture on the amount of stolen Sioux land that is still in the possession of
    Irish families and their decedents. Also the amount of money that was raised by Noraid from these lands and given to Sin Fein


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    #82
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    minkynuts wrote: »
    But the English had a good example of machine gunning, sword hacking women and children to death from 1890 at Wounded Knee, by the 7th Calvary,of which the largest nationality was Irish. 300 women and children died that day. I have a
    friend visiting Ireland this year who is Sioux Indian, and she is going to give a lecture on the amount of stolen Sioux land that is still in the possession of
    Irish families and their decedents. Also the amount of money that was raised by Noraid from these lands and given to Sin Fein

    wheres the lecture on, sounds very interesting


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    #83
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    minkynuts wrote: »
    But the English had a good example of machine gunning, sword hacking women and children to death from 1890 at Wounded Knee, by the 7th Calvary,of which the largest nationality was Irish. 300 women and children died that day. I have a
    friend visiting Ireland this year who is Sioux Indian, and she is going to give a lecture on the amount of stolen Sioux land that is still in the possession of
    Irish families and their decedents. Also the amount of money that was raised by Noraid from these lands and given to Sin Fein

    This has nothing whatsoever to do with Bloody Sunday 1920.

    Also Noraid did not exsist in 1890, I believe it was formed in 1969.


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    #84
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    minkynuts wrote: »
    But the English had a good example of machine gunning, sword hacking women and children to death from 1890 at Wounded Knee, by the 7th Calvary,of which the largest nationality was Irish. 300 women and children died that day. I have a
    friend visiting Ireland this year who is Sioux Indian, and she is going to give a lecture on the amount of stolen Sioux land that is still in the possession of
    Irish families and their decedents. Also the amount of money that was raised by Noraid from these lands and given to Sin Fein

    Edit, now I've read it properly.

    I don't see the relevance though


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    #85
    minkynuts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61 ✭✭minkynuts


    What it shows is that we are just as willing to kill innocent women and children
    as the British did in 1920, so we cannot hold the moral high ground. Both acts plumbed humanity to new depths. Although Noraid was formed much later than 1890 much of the land on which it raised its money was stolen from the Sioux and has not been returned even today


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    #86
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    minkynuts wrote: »
    What it shows is that we are just as willing to kill innocent women and children
    as the British did in 1920, so we cannot hold the moral high ground. Both acts plumbed humanity to new depths. Although Noraid was formed much later than 1890 much of the land on which it raised its money was stolen from the Sioux and has not been returned even today

    Any random Irish men who were present at that slaughter did not represent the people of Ireland or the official State policy of Ireland.

    In fact there was no independent Irish republic at that time. We were part of britain.

    This is irrelevant to Bloody Sunday 1920. You are drawing a very flimsy link from one completely unrelated atrocity to the one this thread is about. In my view this illustrates a lack of respect for Irish history.


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    #87
    kabakuyu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,381 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    In my view this illustrates a lack of respect for Irish history
    I agree with you, we are discussing Bloody Sunday 1920 and not some ridiculous link between alleged land allocation to Irish veterans of the 7th Cavalry in the last century and the fundraising activities of Noraid in the 70's and 80's.


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    #88
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    As far as I'm concerned the circle was closed last week, a truly historic few days for both nations. Now let's get busy with the present/future, because our past is fraught with pain and no side has a monopoly on it.


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