Bloody Sunday (1920)

rounding tattenham Corner

The queen did not make an official apology for the Croke park killings but mentioned regret, but I’m wondering if there ever was an apology or similar words of regret from the Irish government or its predecessor the freestate government to the families of those killed in Croke Park?

Collins must have known that there was going to some serious reprisals for the assignation of those British agents which he gave the order.

Pedro K

rounding tattenham Corner wrote: »

Collins must have known that there was going to some serious reprisals for the assignation of those British agents which he gave the order.

And naturally, the reprisal you speak of is to go into a public stadium and fire indiscriminately into the crowd... Yeah, Collins must've seen that one coming...

The_Kew_Tour

Where is the crystal ball!!!!

Saila

I thought bloody sunday hapened in norn iron

cournioni

Saila wrote: »

I thought bloody sunday hapened in norn iron

There's only one smilie for that post...

:rolleyes:

GLaDOS

cournioni wrote: »

There's only one smilie for that post...

:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29


Unroll your eyes there

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

History forum..?

Morlar

Of the executions of the Cairo Gang of British intelligence operatives Michael Collins wrote:


"I have proof enough to assure myself of the atrocities which this gang of spies and informers have committed. Perjury and torture are words too easily known to them. If I had a second motive it was no more than a feeling such as I would have for a dangerous reptile. By their destruction the very air is made sweeter. That should be the future's judgement on this particular event. For myself my conscience is clear. There is no crime in detecting in wartime the spy and the informer. They have destroyed without trial. I have paid them back in their own coin."

5starpool

ScienceNerd wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29


Unroll your eyes there

Just because that is the more famous one, doesn't mean it was the first by that name.

GLaDOS

5starpool wrote: »

Just because that is the more famous one, doesn't mean it was the first by that name.

I never said it was, I'm just pointing out there's more than one "Bloody Sunday" and rolling your eyes at thinking it refers to the Northern ireland one is very ignorant.

ISDW

ScienceNerd wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29


Unroll your eyes there

The clue is in the title of this thread (1920).

Pompey Magnus

rounding tattenham Corner wrote: »

The queen did not make an official apology for the Croke park killings but mentioned regret, but I’m wondering if there ever was an apology or similar words of regret from the Irish government or its predecessor the freestate government to the families of those killed in Croke Park?

Collins must have known that there was going to some serious reprisals for the assignation of those British agents which he gave the order.

I assume this is just a bad attempt at trolling. This makes about as much sense as expecting the British government to issue an apology to the victims of the Omagh bombing because they knew their presence in Northern Ireland would lead to reprisals.

For the record Collins requested that the game in Croke Park be called off but the GAA declined as there were too many fans already in Dublin at the time.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

This has to be a re-reg stiring the poop......

Dudess

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

I assume this is just a bad attempt at trolling. This makes about as much sense as expecting the British government to issue an apology to the victims of the Omagh bombing because they knew their presence in Northern Ireland would lead to reprisals.

benwavner wrote: »

This has to be a re-reg stiring the poop......

Yup.

Wolfe Tone

Morlar wrote: »

Of the executions of the Cairo Gang of British intelligence operatives Michael Collins wrote:


"I have proof enough to assure myself of the atrocities which this gang of spies and informers have committed. Perjury and torture are words too easily known to them. If I had a second motive it was no more than a feeling such as I would have for a dangerous reptile. By their destruction the very air is made sweeter. That should be the future's judgement on this particular event. For myself my conscience is clear. There is no crime in detecting in wartime the spy and the informer. They have destroyed without trial. I have paid them back in their own coin."

Amazing how some people are perfectly happy and satisfied with Collins saying such a thing yet if Gerry Adams or someone came out with that line he would be berated from upon high.

PatsytheNazi

Morlar wrote: »

Of the executions of the Cairo Gang of British intelligence operatives Michael Collins wrote:


"I have proof enough to assure myself of the atrocities which this gang of spies and informers have committed. Perjury and torture are words too easily known to them. If I had a second motive it was no more than a feeling such as I would have for a dangerous reptile. By their destruction the very air is made sweeter. That should be the future's judgement on this particular event. For myself my conscience is clear. There is no crime in detecting in wartime the spy and the informer. They have destroyed without trial. I have paid them back in their own coin."

Sounds just like the RUC Special Branch and SAS/UVF during the Troubles.

The_Kew_Tour

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Amazing how some people are perfectly happy and satisfied with Collins saying such a thing yet if Gerry Adams or someone came out with that line he would be berated from upon high.

:pac:

Haven't there been many Bloody Sundays throughout history? Personally I prefer Black Friday. You get some great offers!

Scuid Mhór

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

History forum..?

How can we trust anyone to make a thread in the right forum in this post bloody sunday world...

Bottle_of_Smoke

Who actually did it? The ambiguous term "british forces" or else soldiers is used but Myers wrote a recent article claiming it was the RIC

tightropetom

ScienceNerd wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_%281972%29


Unroll your eyes there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_sunday

Not too hard to search Wikipedia for Bloody Sunday and find plenty of them.

Re-rolling my eyes :rolleyes:

Gunsfortoys

In before the republican terrorist rants.

Chips Lovell

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Amazing how some people are perfectly happy and satisfied with Collins saying such a thing yet if Gerry Adams or someone came out with that line he would be berated from upon high.

Amazing how you can't see the difference.

Mint Sauce

You will never hear the words sorry, you will get symbolism, thats what we have been getting all week.

Also, see it this way, it would be like asking William when he is King to say sorry for the Derry Bloody Sunday. He wasn't born then, Elizabeth was not born in 1920.

I think her speech last night, is as close as you will get, and hopefully went along way to cementing relations. Her Maj is a sincere harmless old lady, born into the position she is in. Our countries have moved on along way since then, The Troubles. The positive steps of The Anglo Ireland Argeement, The Good Friday Agreement, hopefully this week is seen is another positive step in our history.

But some people will never be happy, if in 100 years times we have a Utd Ireland, people will still be asking the Monarch to say sorry.

Wolfe Tone

el tonto wrote: »

Amazing how you can't see the difference.

Why don't you explain so?

rounding tattenham Corner

Pedro K wrote: »

And naturally, the reprisal you speak of is to go into a public stadium and fire indiscriminately into the crowd... Yeah, Collins must've seen that one coming...

Why don't you and the people that like your comment do a little history, and you'll see that during the 1916 rising the British soldiers bust in many houses and killed unarmed people who were civilians and at the time of the bloody Sunday incident the black and tans had been rampaging up and down the country.

So i presume your sarcasm means you think Collins did not see this coming, you must not hold his judgement very highly then because it was not hard to see going on what had happened in Ireland in the 5 years previously, that something like the revenge attack was very likely.

rounding tattenham Corner

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

I assume this is just a bad attempt at trolling. This makes about as much sense as expecting the British government to issue an apology to the victims of the Omagh bombing because they knew their presence in Northern Ireland would lead to reprisals.

For the record Collins requested that the game in Croke Park be called off but the GAA declined as there were too many fans already in Dublin at the time.

trolling! no just asking a question which nobody answered, if i was trolling i'd just say how smart you are

Notorious97

I dont see why Collins and the Squad or any other volunteers who assasinated 14 british spies on that day should say sorry, the quote by Morlar perfectly sums up my attitude to it, im sure they knew there would be reprisals as it was the order of the day, but to kill people in Croke park which includes two young children of 10 and 14 i believe, nobody could have seen that.

God bless Michael Collins and thank you!

As for the Queens speech that is as close to saying sorry as she can ever go, i am republican but i admit she has made more gestures than i ever expected, and i do hope Ireland continues to move forward and Ulster continues on the path to peace amd hopefully some day a united Ireland through peaceful means

Herodotus

Why should she apologise?

She does not speak for British Governement policy in 2011, neither does she speak of the (British) Governement of 1920.

She is a powerless figurehead.

But besdes that, what those forces did, I believe they were Police Officers, some of them Irish infact, was not ordered by senior British officers, let alone reflected by official (British) Governemnt policy back in Dublin Castle / London.

They were thugs in uniform that decided to go AWOL. Simple as.

This truth does not belittle the murder of 14 people, however it should underline the importance of facts in giving an opinion on history.

This article was published this week by Kevin Myers in the Irish Independent.

Before One is Entitled to Have a Strong opinion on Historical Matters, One must at Least Learn Them

It's more than possible that Queen Elizabeth will make an apology for what happened in Croke Park in November 1920, as desired by many people. But before one is entitled to have strong opinions on historical matters, one must at least go to some trouble to learn about them.

Otherwise, one is responding merely to historical mythology, of which the Irish have far too much, and the English (and I do mean English) have almost none at all. This imbalance is one of the many permanently destabilising factors in the relations between the two peoples: one has an energetic narrative, rich in dramatic (and usually inaccurately-recollected) events, and the other has almost a completely blank-sheet about even their own history, never mind Ireland's.

In my childhood in Leicester, whereas the Irish Myers family were all fascinated by the history of the town -- supposedly named after the local king named Lear (yes, the Shakespearian chap), it was where Richard III and Cardinal Wolsey spent their last nights on this earth -- none of the local children appeared to have any interest whatever.

There seemed to be almost no communal memory of any event -- not even the Luftwaffe bombings in 1940. This is probably true for most of the English -- and I have a virtually untestable theory that during the quarter of a millennium of a brutal Norman economic and cultural subjugation of the Anglo-Saxons, ordinary English people learnt to forget as a psychological survival mechanism. But how does one then unlearn amnesia, when one never remembers that one has it?

The Irish, however, "remember" a great deal: the problem is that their narrative is often far worse than the English blank-sheet. The general Irish account for Bloody Sunday is that some 14 British secret agents got their thoroughly deserved come-uppance that morning, and that British soldiers later murdered 14 unarmed people in Croke Park in revenge. Any attempt to correct this compares with Mrs O' Malley's valiant efforts with her mop the day that the Ardnacrusha dam wall broke.

There's a wonderful book about Bloody Sunday by Michael T Foy, 'Michael Collins's Intelligence War' (Sutton) that I sincerely recommend, from which most of the following details are taken.

A Captain Newbury was staying with his wife at a ground-floor flat at 92 Pembroke Street that morning, when two IRA volunteers arrived at the front door. Still in his pyjamas, he fled to the back window, where a third volunteer was waiting: the three men cut him down in a ferocious volley of shots, while his wife screamed beside him.

After throwing a blanket on her husband's corpse, she collapsed, and gave birth to a stillborn baby. Some days later she herself died. Michael Foy thinks that Captain Newbury was not an intelligence officer. Of the 13 defenceless men murdered in their bedrooms that morning, Foy reckons eight were intelligence-officers: the other five were "unlucky".

These included two Irish Catholics, an RAF officer (and cousin of Oscar Wilde) Lt L E Wilde, and Captain Patrick McCormack, an army vet, who were both murdered in their beds in the Gresham Hotel.

It could have been far, far worse: many decent IRA men simply ignored their orders, and shot no one.

In the aftermath of this slaughter, Dublin Castle correctly sensed that many soldiers and RIC Auxiliaries would be thirsting for revenge, and confined as many as possible to barracks. Alas, some Auxiliaries, aided by untrained recruits from the Depot at Phoenix Park, arrived at Croke Park, and perpetrated the infamous and legendary slaughter.

But according to Michael Foy -- and I am inclined to believe him -- these RIC men were out of control. They were not following orders, nor were they implementing policy of any kind.

Six of the Croke Park dead were buried in Glasnevin Cemetery, along with the bodies of the innocent Wilde and McCormack.

These evil events now exist largely in a realm of legend, which states that the British secret service was crippled in one brilliantly organised stroke, and so the cruel British army got its revenge with a massacre of the innocents of Croke Park.

But no soldiers opened fire at Croke Park, just policemen -- and most of the recruits doing the shooting were Irish. And if the British intelligence was so crippled by the assassinations, how come the terms of the Treaty 13 months later so comprehensively favoured Britain's strategic interests?
Queen Elizabeth was not born when Bloody Sunday occurred, and neither she nor any of her family had any association with it. This cannot be said of the Irish State, of which the third Taoiseach, Sean Lemass, was involved in the shooting of an unarmed army officer that morning -- the one-legged Captain Baggalay, who was not involved in intelligence, but in civil administration.

His murder was an atrocious affair, but no intelligent person would seek an apology for such a deed in the middle of a very dirty war so long ago.
For the queen to offer a one-sided sorry for Bloody Sunday would merely give a fresh and needless lift to the wings of nationalist mythology; while for the poor dead Newburys in their pitiful Pembroke Street flat, no one either knows or cares.

But, looking at the bigger picture, is Collins and the other Freedom Fighters the heros that (Official) Irish history has led us all to believe?

Were they not murderers? Unwilling to use democratic means to achive their ends?

The nation must mature and move on from the victimhood mentality of the past 90 years and give a long hard look at its own heros and patriots.

Wolfe Tone

If ever there was a West Brit its Kevin Myers. (If someone can think of a better description let me know) I'm surprised he could stop **** furiously over the queens visit long enough to put pen to paper.


I had a good laugh at this, especially the last bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1MqEs0c28g

RachaelVO

OH GOD!!!!

Why are we so obsessed with a non political figure head saying sorry??????

She made huge steps in her speech last night, and I for one, am glad she made it, and it did acknowledge the atrocities of the past! I think she has done a lot to help repair and cement relationships between the two nations. Whether we like it or not, we are neighbours, on the periphery of europe. In the EU yes, but not part of schengen. Our histories and our economic futures are all tied up in each other.

Anyone still bearing a grudge against an 85 year old woman needs to seriously build a fecking bridge.....

Herodotus

That same mentality that dismisses, mocks and scorns those who question the agreed concensus is the same that has allowed so much to go wrong since the founding of the state.

But, thankfully, things are slowly changing.

People are opening their minds to views, people and beliefs that generations before them would never dare to entertain.

That is something to be proud of.

Notorious97

RachaelVO wrote: »

OH GOD!!!!

Why are we so obsessed with a non political figure head saying sorry??????

She made huge steps in her speech last night, and I for one, am glad she made it, and it did acknowledge the atrocities of the past! I think she has done a lot to help repair and cement relationships between the two nations. Whether we like it or not, we are neighbours, on the periphery of europe. In the EU yes, but not part of schengen. Our histories and our economic futures are all tied up in each other.

Anyone still bearing a grudge against an 85 year old woman needs to seriously build a fecking bridge.....

I said i was republican in my beliefs, but skeptical of her trip before it happened, and i can honestly say she has made more gestures on this trip than i ever thought she would, i havent any complaints about the visit as she paid her respects to our patriot dead, gave a warm speech, but i still hope for one day when there is a united Ireland, regardless of moving forward, that to me is progress.

RachaelVO

Notorious97 wrote: »

I said i was republican in my beliefs, but skeptical of her trip before it happened, and i can honestly say she has made more gestures on this trip than i ever thought she would, i havent any complaints about the visit as she paid her respects to our patriot dead, gave a warm speech, but i still hope for one day when there is a united Ireland, regardless of moving forward, that to me is progress.

You've a very gracious republican stand point, nice to see a republican not sticking to the staunch "NO TO THE QUEEN" stance, and you've recognised the respect she's paid as genuine. Without sounding patronising that's very refershing!

You would love to see a united Ireland, but do you think it will happen in our life time? I don't think it will. I think it will come long after we're all dead and gone!

Notorious97

RachaelVO wrote: »

You've a very gracious republican stand point, nice to see a republican not sticking to the staunch "NO TO THE QUEEN" stance, and you've recognised the respect she's paid as genuine. Without sounding patronising that's very refershing!

You would love to see a united Ireland, but do you think it will happen in our life time? I don't think it will. I think it will come long after we're all dead and gone!

There are a good few others who are republican onhere but are probably more wise than me, just some dont like to admit it lol

Seeing a united ireland in our lifetime, depends how old you are :P lol im mid 20's, i believe i will see it, i think by the time i hit 50 it will be, but of course thats just what i hope for lol, but i think Ulster needs a stable period before anything like that is raised

then me and keithAFC will be drinking guinness and he will have the green flag wrapped around him singing :pac:

Wolfe Tone

For what it is worth I'm younger then notorious97 and I believe that we will see a Utd Ireland in my lifetime. Its unfortunate that the tactic is now to basically out breed the protestants it should never have been like this, and its a shame that the IRA couldn't complete what it set out to do.

Hopefully Gerry knows what he is doing and won't eventually become a figure like Michael Collins, ie signing everything away.

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

For what it is worth I'm younger then notorious97 and I believe that we will see a Utd Ireland in my lifetime. Its unfortunate that the tactic is now to basically out breed the protestants it should never have been like this, and its a shame that the IRA couldn't complete what it set out to do.

Absolutely despicable! :mad:

The people of this island voted on the issue and the IRA were shown to be completely out-of-touch with the wishes of the vast majority.

sdanseo

For all the faults in Collins' tactics..which the brits only loved to call Murder at the time...he never ever targeted a civilian. What the brits did that day was terrorism too, only a worse kind than COllins was even capable of.

RachaelVO

Notorious97 wrote: »

There are a good few others who are republican onhere but are probably more wise than me, just some dont like to admit it lol

Seeing a united ireland in our lifetime, depends how old you are :P lol im mid 20's, i believe i will see it, i think by the time i hit 50 it will be, but of course thats just what i hope for lol, but i think Ulster needs a stable period before anything like that is raised

then me and keithAFC will be drinking guinness and he will have the green flag wrapped around him singing :pac:

I am slightly older than ya, but when you're 50, in theory I should still be around talking sh1te I might just join you and KeithAFC for a pint, I promise I'll leave my zimmer frame outside:p

I am a republican in as much as I don't agree with a monarchy! I often find that you can't have a decent talk with staunch Irish republicans, there's no give, and I find that frustrating.

Like most of us, I have family ties to Irish republicanism and the OLD IRA! I'm proud that some of my family were honoured in the garden of remembrance yesterday, and cos I know their names and have seen their pictures as young men a tear came to my eye when the queen laid that wreath, I found it very poignant, and I mentioned their names out loud. Dunno why, I just felt it had to be done. My great uncle who is dead about 20 years or so, had an IRA military salute at his funeral. He was apparently a big wig in the old IRA.

So if there is a united Ireland, I hope it's blood and tear free (and I suppose economically viable)

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Absolutely despicable! :mad:

The people of this island voted on the issue and the IRA were shown to be completely out-of-touch with the wishes of the vast majority.

I make no apologies for saying that its a shame that the IRA could not drive the Brits out. Its a damn shame the much romanticized "Old IRA" couldn't do it either.

However the time for armed campaign is over it has taken us as far as it can.

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

I make no apologies for ........

Interesting.........and yet you'll demand them from others.

Chips Lovell

It's quite perverse to consider that a naturally formed majority is somehow less desirable than than taking control of a territory against majority wishes through campaign of violence and murder.

The_Kew_Tour

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

For what it is worth I'm younger then notorious97 and I believe that we will see a Utd Ireland in my lifetime. Its unfortunate that the tactic is now to basically out breed the protestants it should never have been like this, and its a shame that the IRA couldn't complete what it set out to do.

Hopefully Gerry knows what he is doing and won't eventually become a figure like Michael Collins, ie signing everything away.

You need to learn some Irish History...

POINTBREAK

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Amazing how some people are perfectly happy and satisfied with Collins saying such a thing yet if Gerry Adams or someone came out with that line he would be berated from upon high.

-
Yeah, you see Gerry wasn't in the IRA. No matter what he says is dismissed as a fairy story now because his credibility is knackered.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Interesting.........and yet you'll demand them from others.

Obtuse as ever I see.

The IRA has apologised for killing civilians. They do not need to apologise for fighting back against oppression, pogroms and all kinds of discrimination at the hands of unionists with British blessing.

Apologise for many of the events which occurred yes, but not for taking up arms.

Wolfe Tone

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

You need to learn some Irish History...

I don't think I would be alone in wishing that the war of independence resulted in a 32 county republic.

Jesus Wept

'Sunday Bloody Sunday'. What a great song. It really encapsulates the frustration of a Sunday, doesn't it? You wake up in the morning, you've got to read all the Sunday papers, the kids are running round, you've got to mow the lawn, wash the car, and you think "Sunday, bloody Sunday!"

Liam Byrne

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Obtuse as ever I see.

The IRA has apologised for killing civilians. They do not need to apologise for fighting back against oppression, pogroms and all kinds of discrimination at the hands of unionists with British blessing.

The usual strawmanning. Had they "fought back against oppression" then they wouldn't have been despised. They murdered civilians.

But we weren't talking about the IRA. We were talking about you saying that you wouldn't apologise for supporting them. Something others find unacceptable.

Which is an exact mirror of your stance against the Queen of England (and that's even assuming that she "supported" what went on, which is a stretch in itself).

mgmt

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Amazing how some people are perfectly happy and satisfied with Collins saying such a thing yet if Gerry Adams or someone came out with that line he would be berated from upon high.

You cannot equate Michael Collins with Gerry Adams. Gerry Adams is just a thug. The leaders of 1916, signed and read out the deceleration of independence at the GPO. Collins was 2nd in command. The provos could only manage to make threats behind bavaclavas and use nicknames. Gerry Adams wont even admit he a member. The Old IRA had the support of the people. Adams and co did not. Provisional Sinn Fein could not even beat the SDLP during the troubles.

Wolfe Tone

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The usual strawmanning. Had they "fought back against oppression" then they wouldn't have been despised. They murdered civilians.

But we weren't talking about the IRA. We were talking about you saying that you wouldn't apologise for supporting them. Something others find unacceptable.

Which is an exact mirror of your stance against the Queen of England (and that's even assuming that she "supported" what went on, which is a stretch in itself).

What I have said, and always have, is that she should apologize for the BA murdering civilians and the terrible acts her army have done. Thats it, nothing more, nothing less. Before you ask yes, the IRA should apologize for killing civilians, and if the apology they issued is not good enough then they should do another, more satisfactory one.

Wolfe Tone

mgmt wrote: »

You cannot equate Michael Collins with Gerry Adams. Gerry Adams is just a thug. The leaders of 1916, signed and read out the deceleration of independence at the GPO. Collins was 2nd in command. The provos could only manage to make threats behind bavaclavas and use nicknames. Gerry Adams wont even admit he a member. The Old IRA had the support of the people. Adams and co did not. Provisional Sinn Fein could not even beat the SDLP during the troubles.

I think Gerry Adams is a lot more like Michael Collins than you think. Except he managed to take nearly all the IRA with him.