Does 'innocent until proven guilty' simply not apply if the accused is a man and...

hatrickpatrick · 17-05-2011 07:25PM #1

...the crime is sex-related?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/in-europe-a-first-call-for-strauss-kahn-to-quit/2011/05/17/AFOhVp5G_story.html

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/great-seducer-can-kiss-presidency-goodbye-2648383.html

Legally speaking he has done NOTHING wrong. NOTHING has been proven against him. Why should he resign from the IMF and why should he drop his presidential ambitions?!

Saila · 17-05-2011 07:27PM

your times up cheif take it like a man better get used to that

Dangerous Man · 17-05-2011 07:29PM

apply

hatrickpatrick · 17-05-2011 07:29PM

Saila wrote: »

your times up cheif take it like a man better get used to that

So what you're basically saying is that prison rape is ok even though nowhere is being raped an officially sanctioned punishment for a crime.

People sicken me.

prinz · 17-05-2011 07:31PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

People sicken me.

Have a KitKat. Former Communists/current socialists/head of an organisation that supports the capitalist system staying in €3,000 a night hotel rooms sicken me.

hondasam · 17-05-2011 07:32PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So what you're basically saying is that prison rape is ok even though nowhere is being raped an officially sanctioned punishment for a crime.

People sicken me.

what is the problem ?

Do you need to talk?

Im Only 71Kg · 17-05-2011 07:33PM

smear campaign. innocent

Saila · 17-05-2011 07:35PM

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

smear campaign. innocent

I was thinking how the wikileaks guy went down and saw a pattern :eek:

A Dub in Glasgo · 17-05-2011 07:35PM

The company I work for would probably sack me if I was charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody as well.

Saila · 17-05-2011 07:38PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So what you're basically saying is that prison rape is ok even though nowhere is being raped an officially sanctioned punishment for a crime.

People sicken me.

yeah sharia law is totally in now havent you heard :cool:

ShooterSF · 17-05-2011 07:42PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The company I work for would probably sack me if I was charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody as well.

What a horrible company. I'd bet you'd look to sue! A workmate of mine was charged with assault before, not only did his boss support him a 100% he offered to be a character witness.

Society is too quick to break out the lynch mob especially when deep down they are envious of someone making huge amounts of money.

hdowney · 17-05-2011 07:44PM

and he is high profile. that makes it worse. if he was a joe soap it would be bad enough, but cos he is high profile in the media there is a lynching as soon as something is suggested. there is no innocent until proven guilty, it is guilty until proven innocent, and even guilty AFTER being proven innocent. once someone digs the claws in and makes assumptions they are VERY difficult to be changed.

so NO he shouldn't resign from the imf but i can see why people are predicting his career is over. they will never let this lie, even after it is done and dusted. he will never just be able to go back to work without people bringing it up time and time again. the only way to get away from it to some degree is retire and slip away into the ether! completely unfair but that is the way life is these days

prinz · 17-05-2011 07:46PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

.. Why should he resign from the IMF and why should he drop his presidential ambitions?!

He should resign from the IMF because we are still in a global financial crisis that the IMF is crucial in helping resolve. The last thing they need is the head of the IMF fixing the global economy from a prison cell while he awaits trial. It's common sense ffs. Add in the previous issues with his actions in the IMF and it just doesn't look good. Bringing the organisation into disrepute etc.

Dean820 · 17-05-2011 07:51PM

I've seen him rape Ireland with my own two eyes.

tipptom · 17-05-2011 07:52PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The company I work for would probably sack me if I was charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody as well.

If you were cleared of the serious offence then they would have to give you your job back I would think.

Dudess · 17-05-2011 07:57PM

"Sex-related" is enough OP - there'd be plenty baying for blood if a woman was charged too... But yes, a lot of people seem to enjoy deciding a person is guilty before the trial has even begun.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So what you're basically saying is that prison rape is ok even though nowhere is being raped an officially sanctioned punishment for a crime.

They were joking - thought it was obvious...

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The company I work for would probably sack me if I was charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody as well.

Employers, well moreso in the private sector, can get away with appalling stuff, so that wouldn't surprise me, but it's still sh1te. They'd basically be saying "Guilty until proven innocent" if they did that.

Whatever about suspension of pay until a verdict is returned, but termination of employment would be extremely unfair.

Biggins · 17-05-2011 07:57PM

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

smear campaign. innocent

Evidence?

Raging_Ninja · 17-05-2011 07:58PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

What a horrible company. I'd bet you'd look to sue! A workmate of mine was charged with assault before, not only did his boss support him a 100% he offered to be a character witness.

Society is too quick to break out the lynch mob especially when deep down they are envious of someone making huge amounts of money.

A lot of places which deal with sensitive information or have serious responsibilities would (and I think should) suspend employees (with pay) if they are charged with serious offences, as it brings their character and trustworthiness with such information and responsibilities into question. If they are cleared, let them resume work, and if they are found guilty they can be let go.

orourkeda · 17-05-2011 08:00PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...the crime is sex-related?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/in-europe-a-first-call-for-strauss-kahn-to-quit/2011/05/17/AFOhVp5G_story.html

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/great-seducer-can-kiss-presidency-goodbye-2648383.html

Legally speaking he has done NOTHING wrong. NOTHING has been proven against him. Why should he resign from the IMF and why should he drop his presidential ambitions?!

If he has to go through the trial process his presidential ambitions are probably over regardless of his innocence or guilt

hdowney · 17-05-2011 08:01PM

exactly. the more high profile you are the more ruined you will be no matter the outcome.

MadameCholet · 17-05-2011 08:21PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...the crime is sex-related?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/in-europe-a-first-call-for-strauss-kahn-to-quit/2011/05/17/AFOhVp5G_story.html

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/great-seducer-can-kiss-presidency-goodbye-2648383.html

Legally speaking he has done NOTHING wrong. NOTHING has been proven against him. Why should he resign from the IMF and why should he drop his presidential ambitions?!

In answer to your question, no, on the contrary. The vast majority of sexual assaults and rapes aren't reported. Of those that are, very few convictions are ever made. If a man is convicted of a sexual crime, then his chances of being sentenced are only one in 6. ONE in 6. And that is the crimes that are reported.

From where I'm standing the statistics make it look like it is the crime that it is most possible to get away with.

Dean820 · 17-05-2011 09:18PM

I know a local man who was charged with rape but was cleared. People are still kind of scared of him.

Im Only 71Kg · 17-05-2011 09:26PM

Biggins wrote: »

Evidence?

you dont need evidence to make an accusation against someone. its one perons word against another in this case. unless there video evidence or obvioius physical evidence..he must be presumed innocent.

Frogeye · 17-05-2011 10:03PM

Dudess wrote: »

".

They were joking - thought it was obvious...

QUOTE]

The two Gardai at the corrib gas field were joking too but that didn't stop the outcry.

hatrickpatrick · 17-05-2011 10:17PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The company I work for would probably sack me if I was charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody as well.

...
And if you were proven completely innocent of said offense in court, would they offer you your job back and some sort of compensation for the stress they put you through?

hatrickpatrick · 17-05-2011 10:19PM

orourkeda wrote: »

If he has to go through the trial process his presidential ambitions are probably over regardless of his innocence or guilt

hdowney wrote: »

exactly. the more high profile you are the more ruined you will be no matter the outcome.

And doesn't anyone else regard this as utterly f*cking appalling?
That's literally an open invite for "I don't want these people to get elected, I'll accuse them of something and then even if they're proven innocent it'll be too late"

It's my absolute and firm opinion that one should not suffer hugely just for being charged with something, only for conviction.

hdowney · 17-05-2011 10:53PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And doesn't anyone else regard this as utterly f*cking appalling?
That's literally an open invite for "I don't want these people to get elected, I'll accuse them of something and then even if they're proven innocent it'll be too late"

It's my absolute and firm opinion that one should not suffer hugely just for being charged with something, only for conviction.

i regard it as utterly appalling. if he did it he should be punished and rightly so. if he is innocent then he should be completely exonorated and it should never be brought up again. however it will be.

(on a side note, i am all for women [and men] reporting when they have been victims of rape, and pray that justice is had, but those women who make up crap rape allegations, and are found to be spouting sh!t. why are they not prosecuted for trying to destroy someones reputation, and for lying to police etc. you never hear of that in these sorts of cases, even when the accused has been proven innocent)

Zonda999 · 17-05-2011 10:55PM

In real terms, his professional career is over it would seem, completely regardless of his innocent or guilt.

To answer the OP, thats the way it seems to work, even if proven innocent, something like this always hangs over you. Its a reality you would tend to ignore until it happens to you. Just a trait of the way the world works, i would have said. Sad, but the reality..

hdowney wrote: »

i regard it as utterly appalling. if he did it he should be punished and rightly so. if he is innocent then he should be completely exonorated and it should never be brought up again. however it will be.

(on a side note, i am all for women [and men] reporting when they have been victims of rape, and pray that justice is had, but those women who make up crap rape allegations, and are found to be spouting sh!t. why are they not prosecuted for trying to destroy someones reputation, and for lying to police etc. you never hear of that in these sorts of cases, even when the accused has been proven innocent)

Is it not possible to sue in the situation you've outlined?

prinz · 17-05-2011 10:57PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And doesn't anyone else regard this as utterly f*cking appalling? That's literally an open invite for "I don't want these people to get elected, I'll accuse them of something and then even if they're proven innocent it'll be too late" It's my absolute and firm opinion that one should not suffer hugely just for being charged with something, only for conviction.

Well being found innocent will not bar him from running for the presidency so the fact that his 'presidential' prospects are more or less over is really up to himself choosing not to run. He can still run and it's up the voters then.

As for the IMF, of course he should step down at least temporarily.

Biggins · 17-05-2011 11:09PM

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

you dont need evidence to make an accusation against someone. its one perons word against another in this case. unless there video evidence or obvious physical evidence..he must be presumed innocent.

"Presumed Innocent" does not prove there is a smear campaign.

If he is innocent or not - shows us your proven evidence for your verdict that there is a smear campaign.
Show us the solid evidence linking to "who?"
Show us the solid evidence linking to "how?"
Show us the solid evidence linking to "opportunity?"
Show us the solid evidence linking to "why?"

Capt'n Midnight · 17-05-2011 11:51PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...the crime is sex-related?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/in-europe-a-first-call-for-strauss-kahn-to-quit/2011/05/17/AFOhVp5G_story.html

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/great-seducer-can-kiss-presidency-goodbye-2648383.html

Legally speaking he has done NOTHING wrong. NOTHING has been proven against him. Why should he resign from the IMF and why should he drop his presidential ambitions?!

Here sensalitioinsist stories sell papers.

Back in France there are many restrictions on showing the story until after the trial.

Hasn't another woman filed charges too ?

Does 'innocent until proven guilty' simply not apply if the accused is a man and...

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