Does 'innocent until proven guilty' simply not apply if the accused is a man and...

hatrickpatrick

...the crime is sex-related?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/in-europe-a-first-call-for-strauss-kahn-to-quit/2011/05/17/AFOhVp5G_story.html

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/great-seducer-can-kiss-presidency-goodbye-2648383.html

Legally speaking he has done NOTHING wrong. NOTHING has been proven against him. Why should he resign from the IMF and why should he drop his presidential ambitions?!

Saila

your times up cheif take it like a man better get used to that

Dangerous Man

apply

hatrickpatrick

Saila wrote: »

your times up cheif take it like a man better get used to that

So what you're basically saying is that prison rape is ok even though nowhere is being raped an officially sanctioned punishment for a crime.

People sicken me.

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

People sicken me.

Have a KitKat. Former Communists/current socialists/head of an organisation that supports the capitalist system staying in €3,000 a night hotel rooms sicken me.

hondasam

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So what you're basically saying is that prison rape is ok even though nowhere is being raped an officially sanctioned punishment for a crime.

People sicken me.

what is the problem ?

Do you need to talk?

Im Only 71Kg

smear campaign. innocent

Saila

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

smear campaign. innocent

I was thinking how the wikileaks guy went down and saw a pattern :eek:

A Dub in Glasgo

The company I work for would probably sack me if I was charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody as well.

Saila

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So what you're basically saying is that prison rape is ok even though nowhere is being raped an officially sanctioned punishment for a crime.

People sicken me.

yeah sharia law is totally in now havent you heard :cool:

ShooterSF

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The company I work for would probably sack me if I was charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody as well.

What a horrible company. I'd bet you'd look to sue! A workmate of mine was charged with assault before, not only did his boss support him a 100% he offered to be a character witness.

Society is too quick to break out the lynch mob especially when deep down they are envious of someone making huge amounts of money.

hdowney

and he is high profile. that makes it worse. if he was a joe soap it would be bad enough, but cos he is high profile in the media there is a lynching as soon as something is suggested. there is no innocent until proven guilty, it is guilty until proven innocent, and even guilty AFTER being proven innocent. once someone digs the claws in and makes assumptions they are VERY difficult to be changed.

so NO he shouldn't resign from the imf but i can see why people are predicting his career is over. they will never let this lie, even after it is done and dusted. he will never just be able to go back to work without people bringing it up time and time again. the only way to get away from it to some degree is retire and slip away into the ether! completely unfair but that is the way life is these days

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

.. Why should he resign from the IMF and why should he drop his presidential ambitions?!

He should resign from the IMF because we are still in a global financial crisis that the IMF is crucial in helping resolve. The last thing they need is the head of the IMF fixing the global economy from a prison cell while he awaits trial. It's common sense ffs. Add in the previous issues with his actions in the IMF and it just doesn't look good. Bringing the organisation into disrepute etc.

Dean820

I've seen him rape Ireland with my own two eyes.

tipptom

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The company I work for would probably sack me if I was charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody as well.

If you were cleared of the serious offence then they would have to give you your job back I would think.

Dudess

"Sex-related" is enough OP - there'd be plenty baying for blood if a woman was charged too... But yes, a lot of people seem to enjoy deciding a person is guilty before the trial has even begun.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So what you're basically saying is that prison rape is ok even though nowhere is being raped an officially sanctioned punishment for a crime.

They were joking - thought it was obvious...

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The company I work for would probably sack me if I was charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody as well.

Employers, well moreso in the private sector, can get away with appalling stuff, so that wouldn't surprise me, but it's still sh1te. They'd basically be saying "Guilty until proven innocent" if they did that.

Whatever about suspension of pay until a verdict is returned, but termination of employment would be extremely unfair.

Biggins

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

smear campaign. innocent

Evidence?

Raging_Ninja

ShooterSF wrote: »

What a horrible company. I'd bet you'd look to sue! A workmate of mine was charged with assault before, not only did his boss support him a 100% he offered to be a character witness.

Society is too quick to break out the lynch mob especially when deep down they are envious of someone making huge amounts of money.

A lot of places which deal with sensitive information or have serious responsibilities would (and I think should) suspend employees (with pay) if they are charged with serious offences, as it brings their character and trustworthiness with such information and responsibilities into question. If they are cleared, let them resume work, and if they are found guilty they can be let go.

orourkeda

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...the crime is sex-related?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/in-europe-a-first-call-for-strauss-kahn-to-quit/2011/05/17/AFOhVp5G_story.html

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/great-seducer-can-kiss-presidency-goodbye-2648383.html

Legally speaking he has done NOTHING wrong. NOTHING has been proven against him. Why should he resign from the IMF and why should he drop his presidential ambitions?!

If he has to go through the trial process his presidential ambitions are probably over regardless of his innocence or guilt

hdowney

exactly. the more high profile you are the more ruined you will be no matter the outcome.

MadameCholet

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...the crime is sex-related?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/in-europe-a-first-call-for-strauss-kahn-to-quit/2011/05/17/AFOhVp5G_story.html

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/great-seducer-can-kiss-presidency-goodbye-2648383.html

Legally speaking he has done NOTHING wrong. NOTHING has been proven against him. Why should he resign from the IMF and why should he drop his presidential ambitions?!

In answer to your question, no, on the contrary. The vast majority of sexual assaults and rapes aren't reported. Of those that are, very few convictions are ever made. If a man is convicted of a sexual crime, then his chances of being sentenced are only one in 6. ONE in 6. And that is the crimes that are reported.

From where I'm standing the statistics make it look like it is the crime that it is most possible to get away with.

Dean820

I know a local man who was charged with rape but was cleared. People are still kind of scared of him.

Im Only 71Kg

Biggins wrote: »

Evidence?

you dont need evidence to make an accusation against someone. its one perons word against another in this case. unless there video evidence or obvioius physical evidence..he must be presumed innocent.

Frogeye

Dudess wrote: »

".

They were joking - thought it was obvious...

QUOTE]


The two Gardai at the corrib gas field were joking too but that didn't stop the outcry.

hatrickpatrick

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The company I work for would probably sack me if I was charged with a serious offence and remanded in custody as well.

...
And if you were proven completely innocent of said offense in court, would they offer you your job back and some sort of compensation for the stress they put you through?

hatrickpatrick

orourkeda wrote: »

If he has to go through the trial process his presidential ambitions are probably over regardless of his innocence or guilt

hdowney wrote: »

exactly. the more high profile you are the more ruined you will be no matter the outcome.

And doesn't anyone else regard this as utterly f*cking appalling?
That's literally an open invite for "I don't want these people to get elected, I'll accuse them of something and then even if they're proven innocent it'll be too late"

It's my absolute and firm opinion that one should not suffer hugely just for being charged with something, only for conviction.

hdowney

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And doesn't anyone else regard this as utterly f*cking appalling?
That's literally an open invite for "I don't want these people to get elected, I'll accuse them of something and then even if they're proven innocent it'll be too late"

It's my absolute and firm opinion that one should not suffer hugely just for being charged with something, only for conviction.

i regard it as utterly appalling. if he did it he should be punished and rightly so. if he is innocent then he should be completely exonorated and it should never be brought up again. however it will be.

(on a side note, i am all for women [and men] reporting when they have been victims of rape, and pray that justice is had, but those women who make up crap rape allegations, and are found to be spouting sh!t. why are they not prosecuted for trying to destroy someones reputation, and for lying to police etc. you never hear of that in these sorts of cases, even when the accused has been proven innocent)

Zonda999

In real terms, his professional career is over it would seem, completely regardless of his innocent or guilt.

To answer the OP, thats the way it seems to work, even if proven innocent, something like this always hangs over you. Its a reality you would tend to ignore until it happens to you. Just a trait of the way the world works, i would have said. Sad, but the reality..

hdowney wrote: »

i regard it as utterly appalling. if he did it he should be punished and rightly so. if he is innocent then he should be completely exonorated and it should never be brought up again. however it will be.

(on a side note, i am all for women [and men] reporting when they have been victims of rape, and pray that justice is had, but those women who make up crap rape allegations, and are found to be spouting sh!t. why are they not prosecuted for trying to destroy someones reputation, and for lying to police etc. you never hear of that in these sorts of cases, even when the accused has been proven innocent)

Is it not possible to sue in the situation you've outlined?

prinz

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

And doesn't anyone else regard this as utterly f*cking appalling? That's literally an open invite for "I don't want these people to get elected, I'll accuse them of something and then even if they're proven innocent it'll be too late" It's my absolute and firm opinion that one should not suffer hugely just for being charged with something, only for conviction.

Well being found innocent will not bar him from running for the presidency so the fact that his 'presidential' prospects are more or less over is really up to himself choosing not to run. He can still run and it's up the voters then.

As for the IMF, of course he should step down at least temporarily.

Biggins

Im Only 71Kg wrote: »

you dont need evidence to make an accusation against someone. its one perons word against another in this case. unless there video evidence or obvious physical evidence..he must be presumed innocent.

"Presumed Innocent" does not prove there is a smear campaign.

If he is innocent or not - shows us your proven evidence for your verdict that there is a smear campaign.
Show us the solid evidence linking to "who?"
Show us the solid evidence linking to "how?"
Show us the solid evidence linking to "opportunity?"
Show us the solid evidence linking to "why?"

Capt'n Midnight

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...the crime is sex-related?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/in-europe-a-first-call-for-strauss-kahn-to-quit/2011/05/17/AFOhVp5G_story.html

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/great-seducer-can-kiss-presidency-goodbye-2648383.html

Legally speaking he has done NOTHING wrong. NOTHING has been proven against him. Why should he resign from the IMF and why should he drop his presidential ambitions?!

Here sensalitioinsist stories sell papers.

Back in France there are many restrictions on showing the story until after the trial.


Hasn't another woman filed charges too ?

vampire of kilmainham

prinz wrote: »

Have a KitKat. Former Communists/current socialists/head of an organisation that supports the capitalist system staying in €3,000 a night hotel rooms sicken me.

sickens me toooo

charlemont

prinz wrote: »

Have a KitKat. Former Communists/current socialists/head of an organisation that supports the capitalist system staying in €3,000 a night hotel rooms sicken me.

Yes, Its strange all right.

Daegerty

If you are brought to court and acquitted over any sex offence your life is basically ruined, particularly if it involved anyone under age.

So grave is the stigma associated with paedophilia that even if you're proven innocent you're life will be completely ****ed up

cordub

Daegerty wrote: »

If you are brought to court and acquitted over any sex offence your life is basically ruined, particularly if it involved anyone under age.

So grave is the stigma associated with paedophilia that even if you're proven innocent you're life will be completely ****ed up

Yes your right you are tarred forever even if innocent, I see a cork woman got 2 years last week for falsely accusing 2 different men of raping her on different dates Im betting they are still having to deal with the consequences of her actions even though 6 weeks after the allegations she admitted they were lies :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

dixiefly

Something wrong here in that the priest here is named and the accuser is not.#

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0517/duaned.html

A 73-year-old retired priest of the Diocese of Cloyne, who was on trial charged with indecently assaulting a woman 30 years ago when she was a teenager, has been found not guilty by direction of the trial judge.

Fr Dan Duane, of the Presbytery, Cecilstown, Mallow, Co Cork, denied the charge.

The woman told the court that Fr Duane indecently assaulted her when she went to his house to talk to him about a family problem.

She made a statement to gardaí in August of last year.

The trial judge, Sean Ó Donabháin, directed the jury to find Fr Duane not guilty.

He said the delay by the woman in making her complaint was inexplicable, given that she was trained and worked in a profession which encouraged victims to make complaints, and which emphasised that complaints would be treated seriously when they were made.

Judge Ó Donabháin said he had a worry about the delay in making the complaint, given that Fr Duane had established to his satisfaction that he shared the house where the assault was alleged to have occurred with a housekeeper and a curate.

He said if the complaint had been made earlier these people could have been asked to make statements about it.

The charge alleged that the assault occurred on dates between 1 September 1980, up to and including 1 April 1982, and Judge Ó Donnabháin said he could not understand why that period of time could not have been narrowed down.

He said some of the worries he had were major and some were minor and he questioned how he would be able to adequately charge the jury when he had these worries.

He said if the jury came back with a guilty verdict he would have the profoundest of worries about the efficacy of that verdict.

Biggins

DSK has now changed his story (from there was no sex - he was having a meal with his daughter at the time!) to there was sex and is trying to say that the sex was consensual!
His change of story wouldn't have anything to do with DNA reports now showing his body fluids were on her of course!
Not afraid to sell to the media two complete versions of events is he?

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/strausskahn-to-admit-sexual-contact-but-with-consent-2650055.html

ilovelamp2000

I have to say if I was innocent of sexual assault, I would have legged it from the hotel leaving all my personal belongings behind too.

Ri_Nollaig

MadameCholet wrote: »

In answer to your question, no, on the contrary. The vast majority of sexual assaults and rapes aren't reported. Of those that are, very few convictions are ever made. If a man is convicted of a sexual crime, then his chances of being sentenced are only one in 6. ONE in 6. And that is the crimes that are reported.

From where I'm standing the statistics make it look like it is the crime that it is most possible to get away with.

Think you are missing the point here.
It's not if he is guilty or innocent, its the simple fact that all media is reporting it as if he is already guilty, ignoring the slight issue of a trial.
If he did commit the crime and is convicted then ofcourse he should be kicked out of the IMF.
But if he is innocent then this has just officially ruined his career and he may aswell retire anyway.

I think media shouldn't be allowed report on ongoing cases, only on verdicts!
Look at the case in England, around Christmas. Woman was murdered, Sky news had an interview with her landlord, he was later brought in for questioning and they had he face all over the station like he was already convicted! I swear too they went looking for the best picture that made him look like a complete psycho. But he was innocent and the police later charged someone else.

Ray Palmer

Lots of high profile jobs have a clause in them regarding public image. Whether guilty,innocent or never charged you can lose your job.

There is something seriously wrong with a system that allows a person to be paraded in the media while the accuser can keep their identity hidden often after the the person is shown to be innocent.

Considering an accusation is enough to ruin somebodies life and career there seems there should be controls put in place.