Pope warns: West seems 'tired' of faith

philologos · 16-05-2011 06:13PM

GarIT wrote: »

What do you believe in then? do you believe in Jeasus walking on water? Do you believe in the original version of the first commandment where "god the creator" implies that all land and islands are floating on water? I thought the creator should have known that water was on land not land on water.

My understanding is chiefly Reformed / Evangelical (I go to a CofI church but I have many influences from other denominations in terms of belief). I primarily believe in God as He has revealed Himself in Scripture.

Your argument is coming across as very patchy. The first commandment?

And God spoke all these words: “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
“You shall have no other gods before me.

Jarndyce · 16-05-2011 06:22PM

philologos wrote: »

I primarily believe in God as He has revealed Himself in Scripture.

Here is your problem.

I hate to break it to you buddy, but God never revealed 'Himself' in your little book.

Here's the real kick in the nuts:

It's fiction

GarIT · 16-05-2011 06:23PM

philologos wrote: »

Your argument is coming across as very patchy. The first commandment?

AFAIK the bible has been edited numerous times to suit more modern times as recently as 200 years ago, here is what is supposed to be the original first commandment "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." God should know there is no water beneath the earth, it is believed that that mistake was made in the original bible because they thought the earth was flat.

I also find it very funny that the bible can have so many quotes from god and then people claim he is not in the physical world. how could they quote someone that doesn't have to power to tell anyone anything because he is not physical?

I know I'm going back to catholics again but until about 40 years ago catholics were so sure angels existed and were present on earth but suddenly one day the pope decided there was no such thing as angels? How can they just suddenly change one of their core beliefs?

GarIT · 16-05-2011 06:28PM

I think we should all live like my cousin said in a song
"If heaven is not so forgivin,
Then I don't care,
cause I won't know,
Anybody There"

Donatello · 16-05-2011 06:31PM

GarIT wrote: »

I know I'm going back to catholics again but until about 40 years ago catholics were so sure angels existed and were present on earth but suddenly one day the pope decided there was no such thing as angels? How can they just suddenly change one of their core beliefs?

Who told you that? Oh, I know, a priest, right? I've heard similar from a priest too, on the Feast of the Holy Archangels no less!

Sadly, lots of Catholics (first the clergy, then the laity) lost their faith during the confusion following the Second Vatican Council, but the Church did not change Her teachings.

Meanwhile, what does the Church teach? Let's look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

I. THE ANGELS

The existence of angels - a truth of faith

328 The existence of the spiritual, non-corporeal beings that Sacred Scripture usually calls "angels" is a truth of faith. The witness of Scripture is as clear as the unanimity of Tradition.

Who are they?

329 St. Augustine says: "'Angel' is the name of their office, not of their nature. If you seek the name of their nature, it is 'spirit'; if you seek the name of their office, it is 'angel': from what they are, 'spirit', from what they do, 'angel.'"188 With their whole beings the angels are servants and messengers of God. Because they "always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven" they are the "mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word".189

330 As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.190

philologos · 16-05-2011 06:33PM

There's no textual evidence in Biblical scholarship to suggest that GarIT. Most translations are the same. Perhaps you're talking about the second commandment.

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

The sea is generally below the land. It is rare for land to be below sea level. There is also the watertable beneath the land.

Sarky · 16-05-2011 06:46PM

All of which sits on more land. Hooray for basic geology!

philologos · 16-05-2011 06:48PM

Agreed, which is why the term "eretz" in Hebrew refers to land. I.E dry land.

Quo Vadis · 16-05-2011 06:49PM

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Religion class, especially in primary school.

As fact ? I was taught it as a belief, because I attended a Catholic school.

Quo Vadis · 16-05-2011 06:55PM

GarIT wrote: »

I know I'm going back to catholics again but until about 40 years ago catholics were so sure angels existed and were present on earth but suddenly one day the pope decided there was no such thing as angels?

When did this happen ?

GarIT wrote: »

How can they just suddenly change one of their core beliefs?

I thought core beliefs were dogma, can you give some examples of dogma that they have changed ?

Sarky · 16-05-2011 06:56PM

philologos wrote: »

Agreed, which is why the term "eretz" in Hebrew refers to land. I.E dry land.

Wait, you just explained why it could mean on water. Why is that there? You'd think a direct quote from the Almighty would be a bit more specific.

philologos · 16-05-2011 06:59PM

Sarky wrote: »

Wait, you just explained why it could mean on water. Why is that there? You'd think a direct quote from the Almighty would be a bit more specific.

It is there to say don't make an idol of anything in the heavens, on earth or under the water. The sea floor being a great deal deeper than the land which we inhabit in the vast majority of cases.

Jarndyce · 16-05-2011 07:12PM

philologos wrote: »

Agreed, which is why the term "eretz" in Hebrew refers to land. I.E dry land.

Pathetic.

philologos · 16-05-2011 07:14PM

^^ my thoughts exactly about bringing this up as a valid objection.

Jarndyce · 16-05-2011 07:34PM

philologos wrote: »

^^ my thoughts exactly about bringing this up as a valid objection.

You said that you are doing exams, so I presume that you have at least some education.

I also presume that you never stop and listen to what you are saying and how utterly ridiculous it is. It is the height of both nonsense and brainwashing.

When flaws are pointed out in the 'infallible word of God', you (like most Christians) squirm and contort in order to make it somehow fit. It's not that the subject matter might be man-made garbage, no, the interpretation must be incorrect.

There is none so blind as those who will not see. Perhaps your fairytales give you a warm and fuzzy feeling, in which case, good for you. But have some self-respect and don't share them with rational and intelligent people. You want a valid objection?? There is no evidence whatsoever that Christian dogma (the miracles, the resurrection etc) is true. Moreover, the evidence that Christ actually existed is itself neglible at best.

That being said, pray tell, do you believe in the story of the Gadarene swine?

philologos · 16-05-2011 07:38PM

You're asking me do I believe in miracles. Yes, I believe that God exists and He can act and indeed does act. If God doesn't exist that's bloody ridiculous, if He does its more than possible.

Jarndyce · 16-05-2011 07:57PM

Your answer implies that you also believe in demonic spirits who can possess a human being and be transferred to pigs' bodies (with the requisite magic trick).

That's not ridiculous?

If God doesn't exist, you suggest that that would be ridiculous???

May I remind you that it was once ridiculous to suggest that the earth was not flat, that the Earth is heliocentric rather than geocentric, and may I remind you of the centuries long threat of torture and death for pronouncing such notions?

Now, perhaps even you might laugh at such people as the Flat Earth Society (who maintain this belief). But you are no better than them. You still remain willfully ignorant of the 21st scientific knowledge that illustrates how the non-existence of a primemover, far being ridiculous, is in fact scientifically plausible.

I've no doubt that you would prefer to remain mired by your ignorance and credulity, because to even contemplate that by doing otherwise you might reject Jesus as the risen Lord, which would entail the possibility of being denied access to his theme park when rapture time comes around.

You might be an inoffensive and decent person in other ways, but your blind faith and ignorance is frightfully repugnant to a rational person.

philologos · 16-05-2011 08:10PM

Jarndyce let me know when you can present something that isn't an ad-hominem :pac: (You've misunderstood what I've said in that post, so go and read it again) :pac:

Jarndyce · 16-05-2011 08:21PM

philologos wrote: »

Jarndyce let me know when you can present something that isn't an ad-hominem :pac: (You've misunderstood what I've said in that post, so go and read it again) :pac:

Ah, my apologies.

Ok. Let us engage in a meaningful discussion of demonic spirits.*

Pesky things aren't they? Fortunately we don't see too much of it around these days. Or witchcraft for that matter. Jesus was awesome wasn't he? He was like an old-school Ghostbuster, going around putting an end to such ghastly things.

Do you think they are still a problem? Has the Church conducted any empirical research on the matter? What are the demographics for demon possession? Do they prefer to invade the bodies of impoverished areas, or will they sometimes go for the Wall Street executive? Also, what exactly is the incantation/chant that one should recite if faced with such a pesky bugger?

* This is actually a reasonable proposition based on your beliefs

anymore · 16-05-2011 08:41PM

GarIT wrote: »

What do you believe in then? do you believe in Jeasus walking on water? Do you believe in the original version of the first commandment where "god the creator" implies that all land and islands are floating on water? I thought the creator should have known that water was on land not land on water.

Sorry for interupt, do you have link for original commandments, please ?

himnextdoor · 16-05-2011 09:02PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Except for the fact that there is a net increase in the number of Christians every year. I'd say hold your goodbyes.

So what's the Pope's problem then?

GarIT · 16-05-2011 09:06PM

anymore wrote: »

Sorry for interupt, do you have link for original commandments, please ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Catholic_and_Lutheran_Christianity

Somewhere else linked me to there saying it wad the original, but just above there it says they are revised too. Those are the ones currently accepted by the church :S

partyatmygaff · 16-05-2011 09:43PM

himnextdoor wrote: »

So what's the Pope's problem then?

This growth is not necessarily in the Roman Catholic Church.

Zombrex · 17-05-2011 11:05AM

Quo Vadis wrote: »

Can you give us a few examples of when you were taught something as fact when it was not a fact ?

I went to a CoI school. I was taught the entire Bible is a fact.

Quo Vadis wrote: »

As fact ? I was taught it as a belief, because I attended a Catholic school.

If that was really true then you wouldn't have been in a Catholic school would you :rolleyes:

anymore · 17-05-2011 11:56AM

philologos wrote: »

You're asking me do I believe in miracles. Yes, I believe that God exists and He can act and indeed does act. If God doesn't exist that's bloody ridiculous, if He does its more than possible.

Come on, you dont actually say here that you do believe in miracles !;)
ANALYSIS:

" Yes, I believe that God exists and He can act and indeed does act."
No mention of miracles in that sentence.
" If God doesn't exist that's bloody ridiculous, if He does its more than possible "
And no mention of miracles here either !
Lots of things are not doubt possible, but that doesnt mean we beleive they have happened. So do you actaully believe in miracles ?
A yes or a no would suffice !

philologos · 17-05-2011 11:59AM

^^ Yes I do. Miracles are perfectly reasonable if God exists. If God doesn't exist they are bloody ridiculous.

Fanny Cradock · 17-05-2011 12:03PM

anymore wrote: »

Come on, you dont actually say here that you do believe in miracles !;)
ANALYSIS:

" Yes, I believe that God exists and He can act and indeed does act."
No mention of miracles in that sentence.
" If God doesn't exist that's bloody ridiculous, if He does its more than possible "
And no mention of miracles here either !
Lots of things are not doubt possible, but that doesnt mean we beleive they have happened. So do you actaully believe in miracles ?
A yes or a no would suffice !

A miracle is an act of divine intervention. Given that philologos just said that he believes in God and has repeatedly identified himself as a Christian who believes in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, I would think that the answer is obvious to all but the most obtuse.

anymore · 17-05-2011 03:11PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

A miracle is an act of divine intervention. Given that philologos just said that he believes in God and has repeatedly identified himself as a Christian who believes in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, I would think that the answer is obvious to all but the most obtuse.

The question wasnt directed at you and furthermore given that you identify yourself as a ' Christian', could i suggest you STOP insulting people ?

Fanny Cradock · 17-05-2011 03:20PM

anymore wrote: »

The question wasnt directed at you and furthermore given that you identify yourself as a ' Christian', could i suggest you STOP insulting people ?

The funny thing about forums is that anybody can reply. Stating that it takes a special lack of observance to miss the obvious is not an insult.

philologos · 17-05-2011 03:29PM

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

The funny thing about forums is that anybody can reply. Stating that it takes a special lack of observance to miss the obvious is not an insult.

That and I've already answered the question.

Pope warns: West seems 'tired' of faith

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