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Pope warns: West seems 'tired' of faith

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    #152
    TheReverend
    Registered Users Posts: 710 ✭✭✭TheReverend


    Donatello wrote: »
    Yeah that's so true. I've a nephew making his 1st HC soon and he's all into the money end of things. It's so sad that the little kids are denied an authentic experience of the faith; first by their parents, then by the parishes, and the schools. Then when they get to age 20 they'll be really angry and not know why. They'll be drinking, doing drugs, getting pregnant and they won't know why. Just this gaping emptiness and a desire to fill it, all the while not realising it was God they sought but did not find. So sad.

    A lack of god or gods does not automatically lead to drugs and or getting knocked up.


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    #153
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Donatello wrote: »
    Yeah that's so true. I've a nephew making his 1st HC soon and he's all into the money end of things. It's so sad that the little kids are denied an authentic experience of the faith; first by their parents, then by the parishes, and the schools. Then when they get to age 20 they'll be really angry and not know why. They'll be drinking, doing drugs, getting pregnant and they won't know why. Just this gaping emptiness and a desire to fill it, all the while not realising it was God they sought but did not find. So sad.


    Yeah I'd prefer that to albs. Girls in albs might give them bad ideas about being alter servers or priests. :p

    It's terrible that this sham is allowed to continue. Not only is it allowed to continue, but it is actively facilitated by many priests (and bishops). I was at a 1st HC a short time ago and it was mad. The priest actually facilitated the charade by playing the part of the entertainer. Meanwhile, our Eucharistic Lord weeps, alone and forgotten in His brass tabernacle whilst living tabernacles, hearts far from him, lie empty, rejoicing in their mammon.
    pic1.jpg
    Out of curiosity, do you have children ?


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    #154
    Donatello
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Donatello


    anymore wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, do you have children ?

    I either have children, or I don't. Why do you ask?


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    #155
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Donatello wrote: »
    I either have children, or I don't. Why do you ask?
    The way you refer to other peopl'es children struck me as being somewhat lacking in humanity or perhaps lacking in empathy so I just wondered was this because you havent had the experince of being a parnet yourself.


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    #156
    Donatello
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Donatello


    anymore wrote: »
    The way you refer to other peopl'es children struck me as being somewhat lacking in humanity or perhaps lacking in empathy so I just wondered was this because you havent had the experince of being a parnet yourself.

    Whereabouts?


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    #157
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Only to someone who bastardises science tbh. Funnily enough, its nothing but rhetoric espoused by anti-theists. there is absolutely NOTHING incompatible between science and Christianity.
    According to science, people don't rise from the dead.


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    #158
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    yawha wrote: »
    According to science, people don't rise from the dead.
    Yeah, but god did it. He exists outside the natural world and is therefore not bound by the rules of science.

    Seriously, it all makes sense once you believe in the existance of the christian god.

    MrP


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    #159
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Yeah, but god did it. He exists outside the natural world and is therefore not bound by the rules of science.

    Seriously, it all makes sense once you believe in the existance of the christian god.

    MrP
    Our knowledge of the natural and physical world is so far from complete - try reading about string theory- that i am not sure we can make any definite statements about whether God exists outside of it or is subject to any of its laws !
    Incidentally if he is indeed not subject to its laws, then it is of course wrong to talk about God rising from the dead. If he doesnt die, he doest die !


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    #160
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    anymore wrote: »
    Our knowledge of the natural and physical world is so far from complete - try reading about string theory- that i am not sure we can make any definite statements about whether God exists outside of it or is subject to any of its laws !
    Incidentally if he is indeed not subject to its laws, then it is of course wrong to talk about God rising from the dead. If he doesnt die, he doest die !

    I think you'll find MrP was being sarcastic. Pointing out how clearly impossible it is to verify religious claims because they invoke an non deterministic contra causal reason for their claims. The best you can attempt to do is show them how the universe doesn't seem to have any footprints of agency except our own. Our own foot prints and behaviours are explainable from a scientific naturalist pov.


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    #161
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Donatello wrote: »
    How do you get well if you don’t even know you are sick?

    Maybe you're a hypochondriac?


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    #162
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Donatello wrote: »
    Faithful Catholics are not OK with their children being 'catechised' by those who do not believe. It is a ridiculous notion.

    Really? Even bishops don't care that we have 4 Catholic teacher training colleges, with every student, by their attendance, claiming to be a Catholic, even though about 10% or fewer are actual believers.


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    #163
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Well goose2005 it seems that the patronage board of many of the RCC's schools is quite happy to give some of them over to Ruairí Quinn, it's just a question of when. What will happen to the RCC schools that are left is advantageous for people like Donatello because they will more than likely be able to guarantee that Catholicism is taught better even if this type of education won't be available to the mainstream.


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    #164
    Donatello
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Donatello


    goose2005 wrote: »
    Really? Even bishops don't care that we have 4 Catholic teacher training colleges, with every student, by their attendance, claiming to be a Catholic, even though about 10% or fewer are actual believers.

    I think that is an absolute disgrace, but I'm not in a position to be able to do anything about it.


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    #165
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    philologos wrote: »
    Well goose2005 it seems that the patronage board of many of the RCC's schools is quite happy to give some of them over to Ruairí Quinn, it's just a question of when. What will happen to the RCC schools that are left is advantageous for people like Donatello because they will more than likely be able to guarantee that Catholicism is taught better even if this type of education won't be available to the mainstream.

    But still taking my tax money to run themselves.


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    #166
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Donatello wrote: »
    I understand what you are saying Jammie Dodger. Many people think they are A-OK. And they really believe it.

    This webpage might help you understand how one can think they are A-OK, but in reality, they are, as I have said, deeply in need of God. But being blind to the reality of the situation, they cannot see their their own wretchedness.

    How do you get well if you don’t even know you are sick?

    As a matter of routine, our bodily defences takes of a variety of ailments without us being aware of the healing process !


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    #167
    Keylem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 532 ✭✭✭Keylem


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    But still taking my tax money to run themselves.

    As will my tax money, pay to run secular schools! :D


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    #168
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    But still taking my tax money to run themselves.

    Tough. I'm not Muslim my tax money will be still used to fund Islamic faith schools. This is the cost of pluralism. We pay for education in general and then the Government decides on how best to distribute that. Both believers and non-believers pay tax.


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    #169
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    yawha wrote: »
    According to science, people don't rise from the dead.
    How embarrassing. I honestly cannot understand how supposedly scientific people constantly come up with this same tired million time defeated argument time and time again.

    Science is first and foremost the study of the natural and physical world.

    God by his very definition as creator of existence is not in any way constrained by his creation.

    Zillah wrote: »
    I don't think Christianity is any way likely to die out completely in the next couple of hundred years, but the days of it being a relevant force in society are numbered. So long fellas, it's been wild.
    Except for the fact that there is a net increase in the number of Christians every year. I'd say hold your goodbyes.


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    #170
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    How embarrassing. I honestly cannot understand how supposedly scientific people constantly come up with this same tired million time defeated argument time and time again.

    Science is first and foremost the study of the natural and physical world.

    God by his very definition as creator of existence is not in any way constrained by his creation.
    If God makes someone rise from the dead, he's interfering with the natural and physical world, i.e. the realm of science.

    If science has not detected any evidence of God intervening, then it is unreasonable and in conflict with science to believe that an interventionalist God exists.

    Belief in a non-interventionalist, deistic God would be compatible with science all right.


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    #171
    Donatello
    Closed Accounts Posts: 954 ✭✭✭Donatello


    yawha wrote: »
    If God makes someone rise from the dead, he's interfering with the natural and physical world, i.e. the realm of science.

    If science has not detected any evidence of God intervening, then it is unreasonable and in conflict with science to believe that an interventionalist God exists.

    Belief in a non-interventionalist, deistic God would be compatible with science all right.

    You should check out the Eucharistic Miracles, authenticated by science.


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    #172
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Except for the fact that there is a net increase in the number of Christians every year. I'd say hold your goodbyes.

    It's funny you say that, our religion teacher was telling us the christianity is the fastest declining religion in the world and that the church doctors records to make it look like they have more members.

    Most people would jump at a chance to say this is not true but for years I have wanted to remove myself from the church but I was always told I was not old enough. Now that I am old enough to leave I'm being told I cant leave and any time there is a count done by the church I will be counted as a member. So from myself alone that's one case where the church is lying about the number of members it has.


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    #173
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    Donatello wrote: »
    You should check out the Eucharistic Miracles, authenticated by science.

    Has to be the worst laid out website ever, cant find any info on the site and I don't see anything that is "authenticated by science". And if there was any scientific studies done I'd like to see that they were carried out by a reputable scientist, I've seen many cases where a member of the church says they are a scientist and claim to have proof for something.


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    #174
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    GarIT wrote: »
    It's funny you say that, our religion teacher was telling us the christianity is the fastest declining religion in the world and that the church doctors records to make it look like they have more members.
    Lovely. "My teacher told me"

    If your teacher tells you something you don't agree with you immediately jump at their throat and ask for evidence but when they say something you agree with you will believe them immediately. An interesting insight...

    Your religion teacher whoever he or she was is wrong. Christianity as it currently stands grows by approximately 15,400 each and every single day. There is no net decrease as many would erroneously claim. It is also making large gains in the Middle East.

    By the way if you have any actual proof of any church doctoring their records i'd recommend you take them to court. Until then, less baseless labelling and accusations.
    Most people would jump at a chance to say this is not true but for years I have wanted to remove myself from the church but I was always told I was not old enough. Now that I am old enough to leave I'm being told I cant leave and any time there is a count done by the church I will be counted as a member.
    I may be wrong but I have never heard of the RCC counting its members. They have a baptismal register and all those who were baptised are present on it. That is all (To my knowledge at least). Official statistics are based on the state census and have absolutely nothing to do with internal Church statistics.
    So from myself alone that's one case where the church is lying about the number of members it has.
    How is it lying about anything? If you were baptised then you are recorded as being so on a baptismal register.


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    #175
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Lovely. "My teacher told me"

    If your teacher tells you something you don't agree with you immediately jump at their throat and ask for evidence but when they say something you agree with you will believe them immediately. An interesting insight...

    Your religion teacher whoever he or she was is wrong. Christianity as it currently stands grows by approximately 15,400 each and every single day. There is no net decrease as many would erroneously claim. It is also making large gains in the Middle East.

    By the way if you have any actual proof of any church doctoring their records i'd recommend you take them to court. Until then, less baseless labelling and accusations.


    I may be wrong but I have never heard of the RCC counting its members. They have a baptismal register and all those who were baptised are present on it. That is all (To my knowledge at least). Official statistics are based on the state census and have absolutely nothing to do with internal Church statistics.


    How is it lying about anything? If you were baptised then you are recorded as being so on a baptismal register.

    On the first point on believing what I want to I cant really argue with it, but it does seem to make logical sense to me. He was showing us a kind of map thing and it was showing that when education increases christianity decreases, he said they are making massive gains in third world countries but loosing members all across Europe at a faster rate. The man is a very religious and practising catholic so when he makes a point against what he believes in its more believable.

    I don't have any proof I only have what the parish priest told me I am currently seeking legal advice on having myself removed from the baptismal register as it was done when I was a child and against my will.

    They do an overall count themselves every now and again to estimate how many members they have. At the moment the church is refusing to allow people to declare they have left the church and still counts them as members even if they do not wish to be. So it is making them appear to have more members then they should.


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    #176
    Jarndyce
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Jarndyce


    GarIT wrote: »
    He was showing us a kind of map thing and it was showing that when education increases christianity decreases, he said they are making massive gains in third world countries but loosing members all across Europe at a faster rate.

    Indeed. As I said, back on the first page of this thread:

    Lack of childhood/societal indoctrination + healthy education of the sciences and critical thinking and reasoning etc = Irreligiosity


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    #177
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    philologos wrote: »
    Tough. I'm not Muslim my tax money will be still used to fund Islamic faith schools. This is the cost of pluralism. We pay for education in general and then the Government decides on how best to distribute that. Both believers and non-believers pay tax.

    No it really isn't a problem. Why does faith teaching need to be paid for by the government? Religion teaching is the responsibility of the parent and the religious institution they belong to not the government or my tax money.


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    #178
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    No it really isn't a problem. Why does faith teaching need to be paid for by the government? Religion teaching is the responsibility of the parent and the religious institution they belong to not the government or my tax money.

    In terms of what the Government's role in respect to education is, it is to try and respect the wishes of parents in respect to their children's education as much as it is practicable to do so.

    This to me would mean providing both for faith and secular schools as atheists are a subset of the society as are believers. In due and right proportion which is why I support Ruairí Quinn's current stance in respect to education.

    Before one would complain about this being the State favouring faith groups over other groups. It isn't at all. The education system will aim to represent all subsets within society equally.

    This is the most reasonable compromise.


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    #179
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    philologos wrote: »
    In terms of what the Government's role in respect to education is, it is to try and respect the wishes of parents in respect to their children's education as much as it is practicable to do so.

    This to me would mean providing both for faith and secular schools as atheists are a subset of the society as are believers. In due and right proportion which is why I support Ruairí Quinn's current stance in respect to education.

    Before one would complain about this being the State favouring faith groups over other groups. It isn't at all. The education system will aim to represent all subsets within society equally.

    This is the most reasonable compromise.

    :rolleyes:

    The duty of the government is and should be to provide education to everyone, a vanilla education. Teaching kids empirical facts, mathematics, learning to read etc. After that it's the parents job. However this is not the case as it stands.

    All the government needs to do is make sure that all kids have access to the same levels of numeracy, literacy and science that's it. I repeat personal beliefs have no right to my tax money. Cold hard facts I'm okay with. There is just education to suggest otherwise is you just serving your argument. Why are you so eager to have my tax money bolster your faith?


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    #180
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    How embarrassing. I honestly cannot understand how supposedly scientific people constantly come up with this same tired million time defeated argument time and time again.

    Science is first and foremost the study of the natural and physical world.

    God by his very definition as creator of existence is not in any way constrained by his creation.



    Except for the fact that there is a net increase in the number of Christians every year. I'd say hold your goodbyes.
    I perfectly understand the point you are making regarding God and science but the problem with the arguement is that it does allow the suggestion that Jesus, as he wasnt really human in our terms, didnt actually die and come back from the dead; he took human form for a period but essentially he wasnt really human and so didnt ' die'.


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    #181
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Lovely. "My teacher told me"

    If your teacher tells you something you don't agree with you immediately jump at their throat and ask for evidence but when they say something you agree with you will believe them immediately. An interesting insight...

    .
    ..
    Chances are if you agree with what is said that you already believe it so I am not sure where the ' interesting sight' comment comes from ?:confused:


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