Begrudge this...

leggo · 16-05-2011 01:06AM #1

Almost as tiring as the accusations of 'begrudgery' on places like this are follow-up arguments of "Is it not possible to just think someone is ****e?!"

But, one has to admit, there is a startling track record of popular people, TV shows, movies etc that have an audience who loyally follow their every move and blissfully ignore the criticism. And, for every Twitter follower, there appears to be someone who wants their head on a platter.

See: Jedward, Ray Foley, The Late Late Show, U2. And so on and so forth. All extremely successful in their own fields, all have several megathreads on boards specifically designed to dissect their every move and cross-reference it with their large paycheque with the common thread of "Grrr I hate this guy/these guys/this show/black people!" (wait...the last one is a different argument altogether actually...)

I even had a similar discussion the other day over at the dance music board (this is just a random example to illustrate the point...not looking to re-open the debate).

And, again, you get compelling arguments for loathing each artist individually. But then, when the dust settles, no commercially successful artists are considered to have any kind of discernable talent. They've connected with millions of people, of all different walks of life, but the hardcore fans consider them to have nothing going for themselves. And have strong arguments to back it up. Surely there's something missing there, though? Else the entire world hasn't a clue and we should all bow down to the superior intellectual knowledge of those with 5,000 or more posts on boards. As if they are the anti-Simon Cowell...judging talent while wearing an 'Ifyoucanreadthisimstaringatyourtits' t-shirt.

So, while yes, there is a case that people genuinely don't like a lot of people who've 'made it' and have perfectly valid reasons for doing so...when is the line crossed? When does talent (or lack thereof) cease to be a factor in judgement and sheer old begrudgery begin?

Midnight_EG · 16-05-2011 01:09AM

I don't get the point of your whole argument

There's no begrudgery in talent, just jealousy

leggo · 16-05-2011 01:14AM

"Ryan Tubridy: worth every penny."
- Midnight EG, boards.ie

I can quote you on that, yes?

TaraFoxglove · 16-05-2011 01:14AM

If someone deserves something I won't begrudge them at all.

I seriously dislike Bono as a person but I do think he has talent. So I wouldn't say I begrudge him the success he had with his band. But it's all the other bullshít he goes on with that makes me :rolleyes:.

If I think someone is talentless, I'll say. But that can be interpreted as begrudgery, I guess. Whatchagonnado?

Midnight_EG · 16-05-2011 01:15AM

leggo wrote: »

I can quote you on that, yes?

Where'd you get that from?

I have no opinion on Ryan Tubridy to be totally honest.

Also, there's an underscore in my name, so stop making up things please

El Weirdo · 16-05-2011 01:16AM

Just because something is popular and successful it doesn't mean it is good. It just appeals to the masses.

The general public are stupid. Simple.

leggo · 16-05-2011 01:18AM

I'm messing Midnight EG. I'm just begrudging you.

So Tara, are you saying that begrudgery is just an accusation levelled by fans of particular people/products to invalidate the opinion of...ahem...haterz?

TeddyTedson · 16-05-2011 01:20AM

I don't begrudge anybody nothing

leggo · 16-05-2011 01:22AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Just because something is popular and successful it doesn't mean it is good. It just appeals to the masses.

The general public are stupid. Simple.

But, by the law of averages, doesn't disagreeing with the masses make you the stupid one?

If we must categorise people into 'intelligent' and 'stupid' then surely the only way of judging it fairly is by common consensus?

Or, if you were to write a well-thought-out post to illustrate your hatred of someone on boards, would a decent handle of grammar and a strong dose of wit invalidate the majority opinion in favour of your own?

I'm not taking sides here, by the way.

TaraFoxglove · 16-05-2011 01:24AM

leggo wrote: »

So Tara, are you saying that begrudgery is just an accusation levelled by fans of particular people/products to invalidate the opinion of...ahem...haterz?

Yeah, definitely!

El Weirdo · 16-05-2011 01:28AM

leggo wrote: »

Or, if you were to write a well-thought-out post to illustrate your hatred of someone on boards, would a decent handle of grammar and a strong dose of wit invalidate the majority opinion in favour of your own?

Personally, I'd be more swayed in favour of an argument put forward by someone who had a decent grasp of the language than one written by somebody using txtspk or caps lock. Wouldn't you?

ArtyM · 16-05-2011 01:30AM

42

leggo · 16-05-2011 01:32AM

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

Yeah, definitely!

Okey doke.

But let's take, for example, the dance board again. Where there are PLENTY of strong arguments against each commercially successful artist. Yet there is not ONE artist who has had a single in the iTunes Top 10 that you could enjoy while still having what is considered to be a 'credible' opinion in the eyes of many.

That stat alone tells a story, don't you agree? Surely ONE would be able to crossover and achieve both mass and critical acclaim, no? Not EVERY artist could be talentless, nor EVERY opinion within this group of people invalid?

So what can we conclude from the middle ground? Begrudgery? Mainstream audiences are just dumb? Or is there a line and where is it? (Without focusing on that board in particular, we could all probably cite several similar examples)

El Weirdo · 16-05-2011 01:39AM

leggo wrote: »

Okey doke.

But let's take, for example, the dance board again. Where there are PLENTY of strong arguments against each commercially successful artist. Yet there is not ONE artist who has had a single in the iTunes Top 10 that you could enjoy while still having what is considered to be a 'credible' opinion in the eyes of many.

That stat alone tells a story, don't you agree? Surely ONE would be able to crossover and achieve both mass and critical acclaim, no? Not EVERY artist could be talentless, nor EVERY opinion within this group of people invalid?

So what can we conclude from the middle ground? Begrudgery? Mainstream audiences are just dumb? Or is there a line and where is it? (Without focusing on that board in particular, we could all probably cite several similar examples)

Maybe it's not begrudgery but instead it's snobbery (for want of a better word).

The average person is only of average intelligence, by definition. The minority that say they don't like something that is considered popular by the majority consider themselves to be more intelligent than to just follow the masses and look for something more stimulating, be it with books, film, television or music.

General General · 16-05-2011 01:44AM

begrudgers be-a-grudgin',

so lofty in high dudgeon,

coz whores a be-a-whorin',

facebookin', tweetin', sporing..

ain't no use complainin',

coz that's the way it's stayin'...

leggo · 16-05-2011 01:45AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Personally, I'd be more swayed in favour of an argument put forward by someone who had a decent grasp of the language than one written by somebody using txtspk or caps lock. Wouldn't you?

Hmm. I'd certainly be more inclined to give their opinion due consideration...if it agreed with mine. Then I'd point to their above average grammar as an indication of intelligence over the textspeak.

But if it didn't match my opinion, I'd more than likely consider the person using the better grammar condescending.

And, if I was in a position where political correctness mattered, I'd argue that all opinions where valid and your knowledge of music or film shouldn't be gauged by your grasp of the English language as art is above it.

In short...I'd always feel that I'm right and anyone who doesn't agree with me is a ****ing idiot.

Eric Cartman · 16-05-2011 01:49AM

the problem with normal people versus famous people is

normal people : not well known, easily ignored, dont come up in conversation much , a very small minority to defend them, not in your face or in the media all the time, you get to know them as people.

so If i dont like somebody not famous , I just ignore them, keep my gripes for myself and move on knowing i dont have to deal with them ,

lets take jedward as an example, boards, radio, television, print advertisment, i work in print media so constantly have to see and hear about their shíte , everyone knows who they are and they are unavoidable, i dislike them as much as I dislike people who arent famous , but not being able to avoid them you cant just contain the hate ,

doesnt matter who it is , youll always have people calling you 'jealous' or 'a begrudger' believe me, if they dissapeared tomorrow to some place only their fans had to see them, youd never hear a word out of me about them again

El Weirdo · 16-05-2011 01:49AM

leggo wrote: »

Hmm. I'd certainly be more inclined to give their opinion due consideration...if it agreed with mine. Then I'd point to their above average grammar as an indication of intelligence over the textspeak.

But if it didn't match my opinion, I'd more than likely consider the person using the better grammar condescending.

Seriously? Just because they used better grammar? Rite den. ill leeve dat argumant.

leggo wrote: »

And, if I was in a position where political correctness mattered, I'd argue that all opinions where valid and your knowledge of music or film shouldn't be gauged by your grasp of the English language as art is above it.

In short...I'd always feel that I'm right and anyone who doesn't agree with me is a ****ing idiot.

This.

Btw, this thread is far more interesting than the normal dross in AH.
:pac:

LighterGuy · 16-05-2011 01:52AM

To add to this....
im awesome.
that is all.

leggo · 16-05-2011 01:53AM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Seriously? Just because they used better grammar? Rite den. ill leeve dat argumant.

Yeah, mainly because in places like this, an argument with a person using decent grammar versus one using textspeak looks like a school corridor with a big, cool kid playing 'two for flinching' with a passive, smaller bookworm.

Kojak · 16-05-2011 01:56AM

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I don't begrudge anybody nothing

Could you begrudge yourself? If you did would you have to change your name to begrudger?

leggo · 16-05-2011 01:57AM

Kojak wrote: »

Could you begrudge yourself? If you did would you have to change your name to begrudger?

Only in Ireland could self-begrudging be possible.

Android 666 · 16-05-2011 02:58PM

I'm calling Fiachra's Law on this…

Fiachra's Law. A version of Godwin's Law except based on Irishness and Begrudgery:

"As an online discussion on all things Irish grows longer, the probability of the mention of Typical Irish Begrudgery approaches 1."

In other words, given enough time, all discussions on things Irish —regardless of topic or scope—inevitably end up being about Typical Irish Begrudgery.

Fiachra's law is here to protect us from accusations of begrudgery. When you express an opinion that runs contrary to someone else's and they use they 'B' word, invoke Fiachra's law with great aplomb.

A: Westlife are great
B: No, they're sh¡te
A: Typical Irish Begrudery!
B: I invoke FIACHRA'S LAW!…
(Clouds part, lightning flashes)
… and you're a wánker.

Essentially Fiachra's law is there to stop anyone accusing you of begrudgery and therefore claiming some sort of moral superiority in an online argument. The first thing that happens after some one calls you a begrudger is that you have to defend yourself against the claim and appear to lose credibility in the argument. Fiachra's law basically says the person throwing out the begrudger claim is taking a cheap shot because they know they have no other defence and making all subsequent debate redundant because they don't have the brains to have a logical discussion on differing points of view.

bono-begrudgery.jpg?t=1305554421

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-05-2011 03:05PM

Not begrudery at all.

A lot of those acts are fairly average, while bands of real talent don't get the exposure they deserve.

I saw the Jedward eurovision for the first time earlier: nice enough song, average performance. It wouldn't have been out of place at the Edinburgh Fringe festival. Certainly not the "breath of fresh air" or "Ireland't finest act" people harp on about.

Westlife, good singers, but that's about it. Nothing original, nothing outstanding.

Could say the same about a lot of Irish "talent".

Magic Eight Ball · 16-05-2011 03:09PM

leggo wrote: »

Almost as tiring as the accusations of 'begrudgery' on places like this are follow-up arguments of "Is it not possible to just think someone is ****e?!"

But, one has to admit, there is a startling track record of popular people, TV shows, movies etc that have an audience who loyally follow their every move and blissfully ignore the criticism. And, for every Twitter follower, there appears to be someone who wants their head on a platter.

See: Jedward, Ray Foley, The Late Late Show, U2. And so on and so forth. All extremely successful in their own fields, all have several megathreads on boards specifically designed to dissect their every move and cross-reference it with their large paycheque with the common thread of "Grrr I hate this guy/these guys/this show/black people!" (wait...the last one is a different argument altogether actually...)

I even had a similar discussion the other day over at the dance music board (this is just a random example to illustrate the point...not looking to re-open the debate).

And, again, you get compelling arguments for loathing each artist individually. But then, when the dust settles, no commercially successful artists are considered to have any kind of discernable talent. They've connected with millions of people, of all different walks of life, but the hardcore fans consider them to have nothing going for themselves. And have strong arguments to back it up. Surely there's something missing there, though? Else the entire world hasn't a clue and we should all bow down to the superior intellectual knowledge of those with 5,000 or more posts on boards. As if they are the anti-Simon Cowell...judging talent while wearing an 'Ifyoucanreadthisimstaringatyourtits' t-shirt.

So, while yes, there is a case that people genuinely don't like a lot of people who've 'made it' and have perfectly valid reasons for doing so...when is the line crossed? When does talent (or lack thereof) cease to be a factor in judgement and sheer old begrudgery begin?

TL;DR

Pherekydes · 16-05-2011 03:11PM

Talent, schmalent.

jtsuited · 16-05-2011 03:17PM

U2 : made some of the best albums ever made....also went through dodgy patches....but vitally, Bono's an absolute hypocritical gobsh1te. Doesn't make U2 crap though (although they are crap in places).

Westlife: Fcuk Off

Jedward: bit of fun for kids.

Ray Foley: Not the worst radio broadcaster in the country.

jtsuited · 16-05-2011 03:20PM

haha 'no commercially successful acts are deemed to have any discernible talent':

Rolling Stones, Beatles, Pink Floyd, Radiohead, U2, Coldplay, Muse,etc etc etc

Just because people think that Rhianna, Beyonce and the Pussycat Dolls are complete and utter garbage doesn't mean people are too snobby to like that drivel.

Guill · 16-05-2011 03:45PM

Else the entire world hasn't a clue and we should all bow down to the superior intellectual knowledge of those with 5,000 or more posts on boards.

Exactly.

My name is URL · 16-05-2011 03:59PM

I fcukin hate budgerigars.. they think they're so great :mad:

smokedeels · 16-05-2011 04:13PM

jtsuited wrote: »

U2 : made some of the best albums ever made....also went through dodgy patches....but vitally, Bono's an absolute hypocritical gobsh1te. Doesn't make U2 crap though (although they are crap in places).

Westlife: Fcuk Off

Jedward: bit of fun for kids.

Ray Foley: Not the worst radio broadcaster in the country.

U2: Middle of the road Post-Punk or Echo and the Bunnymen for optimists

Westlife: Well said sir

Jedward: Hey kids, spend more time on your hair than reading books, people will like you more.

Ray Foley: Was he the sanitation commissioner from the Simpsons, if so he is a fine public servant, if not, who?

My point: calling a spade a spade is not begrudgery, "Irish things" don't get preferential treatment. Just because we are all stuck on an Island doesn't mean I need fell joysus when somebody does well and gets off the damn rock, in body or reputation.

Begrudge this...

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