Begrudge this...

leggo

Almost as tiring as the accusations of 'begrudgery' on places like this are follow-up arguments of "Is it not possible to just think someone is ****e?!"

But, one has to admit, there is a startling track record of popular people, TV shows, movies etc that have an audience who loyally follow their every move and blissfully ignore the criticism. And, for every Twitter follower, there appears to be someone who wants their head on a platter.

See: Jedward, Ray Foley, The Late Late Show, U2. And so on and so forth. All extremely successful in their own fields, all have several megathreads on boards specifically designed to dissect their every move and cross-reference it with their large paycheque with the common thread of "Grrr I hate this guy/these guys/this show/black people!" (wait...the last one is a different argument altogether actually...)

I even had a similar discussion the other day over at the dance music board (this is just a random example to illustrate the point...not looking to re-open the debate).

And, again, you get compelling arguments for loathing each artist individually. But then, when the dust settles, no commercially successful artists are considered to have any kind of discernable talent. They've connected with millions of people, of all different walks of life, but the hardcore fans consider them to have nothing going for themselves. And have strong arguments to back it up. Surely there's something missing there, though? Else the entire world hasn't a clue and we should all bow down to the superior intellectual knowledge of those with 5,000 or more posts on boards. As if they are the anti-Simon Cowell...judging talent while wearing an 'Ifyoucanreadthisimstaringatyourtits' t-shirt.

So, while yes, there is a case that people genuinely don't like a lot of people who've 'made it' and have perfectly valid reasons for doing so...when is the line crossed? When does talent (or lack thereof) cease to be a factor in judgement and sheer old begrudgery begin?

Midnight_EG

I don't get the point of your whole argument


There's no begrudgery in talent, just jealousy

leggo

"Ryan Tubridy: worth every penny."
- Midnight EG, boards.ie

I can quote you on that, yes?

TaraFoxglove

If someone deserves something I won't begrudge them at all.

I seriously dislike Bono as a person but I do think he has talent. So I wouldn't say I begrudge him the success he had with his band. But it's all the other bullshít he goes on with that makes me :rolleyes:.

If I think someone is talentless, I'll say. But that can be interpreted as begrudgery, I guess. Whatchagonnado?

Midnight_EG

leggo wrote: »

I can quote you on that, yes?

Where'd you get that from?


I have no opinion on Ryan Tubridy to be totally honest.



Also, there's an underscore in my name, so stop making up things please

El Weirdo

Just because something is popular and successful it doesn't mean it is good. It just appeals to the masses.

The general public are stupid. Simple.

leggo

I'm messing Midnight EG. I'm just begrudging you.

So Tara, are you saying that begrudgery is just an accusation levelled by fans of particular people/products to invalidate the opinion of...ahem...haterz?

TeddyTedson

I don't begrudge anybody nothing

leggo

El Weirdo wrote: »

Just because something is popular and successful it doesn't mean it is good. It just appeals to the masses.

The general public are stupid. Simple.

But, by the law of averages, doesn't disagreeing with the masses make you the stupid one?

If we must categorise people into 'intelligent' and 'stupid' then surely the only way of judging it fairly is by common consensus?

Or, if you were to write a well-thought-out post to illustrate your hatred of someone on boards, would a decent handle of grammar and a strong dose of wit invalidate the majority opinion in favour of your own?

I'm not taking sides here, by the way.

TaraFoxglove

leggo wrote: »

So Tara, are you saying that begrudgery is just an accusation levelled by fans of particular people/products to invalidate the opinion of...ahem...haterz?

Yeah, definitely!

El Weirdo

leggo wrote: »

Or, if you were to write a well-thought-out post to illustrate your hatred of someone on boards, would a decent handle of grammar and a strong dose of wit invalidate the majority opinion in favour of your own?

Personally, I'd be more swayed in favour of an argument put forward by someone who had a decent grasp of the language than one written by somebody using txtspk or caps lock. Wouldn't you?

ArtyM

42

leggo

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

Yeah, definitely!

Okey doke.

But let's take, for example, the dance board again. Where there are PLENTY of strong arguments against each commercially successful artist. Yet there is not ONE artist who has had a single in the iTunes Top 10 that you could enjoy while still having what is considered to be a 'credible' opinion in the eyes of many.

That stat alone tells a story, don't you agree? Surely ONE would be able to crossover and achieve both mass and critical acclaim, no? Not EVERY artist could be talentless, nor EVERY opinion within this group of people invalid?

So what can we conclude from the middle ground? Begrudgery? Mainstream audiences are just dumb? Or is there a line and where is it? (Without focusing on that board in particular, we could all probably cite several similar examples)

El Weirdo

leggo wrote: »

Okey doke.

But let's take, for example, the dance board again. Where there are PLENTY of strong arguments against each commercially successful artist. Yet there is not ONE artist who has had a single in the iTunes Top 10 that you could enjoy while still having what is considered to be a 'credible' opinion in the eyes of many.

That stat alone tells a story, don't you agree? Surely ONE would be able to crossover and achieve both mass and critical acclaim, no? Not EVERY artist could be talentless, nor EVERY opinion within this group of people invalid?

So what can we conclude from the middle ground? Begrudgery? Mainstream audiences are just dumb? Or is there a line and where is it? (Without focusing on that board in particular, we could all probably cite several similar examples)

Maybe it's not begrudgery but instead it's snobbery (for want of a better word).

The average person is only of average intelligence, by definition. The minority that say they don't like something that is considered popular by the majority consider themselves to be more intelligent than to just follow the masses and look for something more stimulating, be it with books, film, television or music.

General General

begrudgers be-a-grudgin',

so lofty in high dudgeon,

coz whores a be-a-whorin',

facebookin', tweetin', sporing..

ain't no use complainin',

coz that's the way it's stayin'...

leggo

El Weirdo wrote: »

Personally, I'd be more swayed in favour of an argument put forward by someone who had a decent grasp of the language than one written by somebody using txtspk or caps lock. Wouldn't you?

Hmm. I'd certainly be more inclined to give their opinion due consideration...if it agreed with mine. Then I'd point to their above average grammar as an indication of intelligence over the textspeak.

But if it didn't match my opinion, I'd more than likely consider the person using the better grammar condescending.

And, if I was in a position where political correctness mattered, I'd argue that all opinions where valid and your knowledge of music or film shouldn't be gauged by your grasp of the English language as art is above it.

In short...I'd always feel that I'm right and anyone who doesn't agree with me is a ****ing idiot.

Eric Cartman

the problem with normal people versus famous people is

normal people : not well known, easily ignored, dont come up in conversation much , a very small minority to defend them, not in your face or in the media all the time, you get to know them as people.

so If i dont like somebody not famous , I just ignore them, keep my gripes for myself and move on knowing i dont have to deal with them ,

lets take jedward as an example, boards, radio, television, print advertisment, i work in print media so constantly have to see and hear about their shíte , everyone knows who they are and they are unavoidable, i dislike them as much as I dislike people who arent famous , but not being able to avoid them you cant just contain the hate ,

doesnt matter who it is , youll always have people calling you 'jealous' or 'a begrudger' believe me, if they dissapeared tomorrow to some place only their fans had to see them, youd never hear a word out of me about them again

El Weirdo

leggo wrote: »

Hmm. I'd certainly be more inclined to give their opinion due consideration...if it agreed with mine. Then I'd point to their above average grammar as an indication of intelligence over the textspeak.

But if it didn't match my opinion, I'd more than likely consider the person using the better grammar condescending.

Seriously? Just because they used better grammar? Rite den. ill leeve dat argumant.

leggo wrote: »

And, if I was in a position where political correctness mattered, I'd argue that all opinions where valid and your knowledge of music or film shouldn't be gauged by your grasp of the English language as art is above it.

In short...I'd always feel that I'm right and anyone who doesn't agree with me is a ****ing idiot.

This.

Btw, this thread is far more interesting than the normal dross in AH.
:pac:

LighterGuy

To add to this....
im awesome.
that is all.

leggo

El Weirdo wrote: »

Seriously? Just because they used better grammar? Rite den. ill leeve dat argumant.

Yeah, mainly because in places like this, an argument with a person using decent grammar versus one using textspeak looks like a school corridor with a big, cool kid playing 'two for flinching' with a passive, smaller bookworm.

Kojak

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I don't begrudge anybody nothing

Could you begrudge yourself? If you did would you have to change your name to begrudger?

leggo

Kojak wrote: »

Could you begrudge yourself? If you did would you have to change your name to begrudger?

Only in Ireland could self-begrudging be possible.

Android 666

I'm calling Fiachra's Law on this…


Fiachra's Law. A version of Godwin's Law except based on Irishness and Begrudgery:

"As an online discussion on all things Irish grows longer, the probability of the mention of Typical Irish Begrudgery approaches 1."

In other words, given enough time, all discussions on things Irish —regardless of topic or scope—inevitably end up being about Typical Irish Begrudgery.

Fiachra's law is here to protect us from accusations of begrudgery. When you express an opinion that runs contrary to someone else's and they use they 'B' word, invoke Fiachra's law with great aplomb.

A: Westlife are great
B: No, they're sh¡te
A: Typical Irish Begrudery!
B: I invoke FIACHRA'S LAW!…
(Clouds part, lightning flashes)
… and you're a wánker.

Essentially Fiachra's law is there to stop anyone accusing you of begrudgery and therefore claiming some sort of moral superiority in an online argument. The first thing that happens after some one calls you a begrudger is that you have to defend yourself against the claim and appear to lose credibility in the argument. Fiachra's law basically says the person throwing out the begrudger claim is taking a cheap shot because they know they have no other defence and making all subsequent debate redundant because they don't have the brains to have a logical discussion on differing points of view.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Not begrudery at all.

A lot of those acts are fairly average, while bands of real talent don't get the exposure they deserve.

I saw the Jedward eurovision for the first time earlier: nice enough song, average performance. It wouldn't have been out of place at the Edinburgh Fringe festival. Certainly not the "breath of fresh air" or "Ireland't finest act" people harp on about.

Westlife, good singers, but that's about it. Nothing original, nothing outstanding.

Could say the same about a lot of Irish "talent".

Magic Eight Ball

leggo wrote: »

Almost as tiring as the accusations of 'begrudgery' on places like this are follow-up arguments of "Is it not possible to just think someone is ****e?!"

But, one has to admit, there is a startling track record of popular people, TV shows, movies etc that have an audience who loyally follow their every move and blissfully ignore the criticism. And, for every Twitter follower, there appears to be someone who wants their head on a platter.

See: Jedward, Ray Foley, The Late Late Show, U2. And so on and so forth. All extremely successful in their own fields, all have several megathreads on boards specifically designed to dissect their every move and cross-reference it with their large paycheque with the common thread of "Grrr I hate this guy/these guys/this show/black people!" (wait...the last one is a different argument altogether actually...)

I even had a similar discussion the other day over at the dance music board (this is just a random example to illustrate the point...not looking to re-open the debate).

And, again, you get compelling arguments for loathing each artist individually. But then, when the dust settles, no commercially successful artists are considered to have any kind of discernable talent. They've connected with millions of people, of all different walks of life, but the hardcore fans consider them to have nothing going for themselves. And have strong arguments to back it up. Surely there's something missing there, though? Else the entire world hasn't a clue and we should all bow down to the superior intellectual knowledge of those with 5,000 or more posts on boards. As if they are the anti-Simon Cowell...judging talent while wearing an 'Ifyoucanreadthisimstaringatyourtits' t-shirt.

So, while yes, there is a case that people genuinely don't like a lot of people who've 'made it' and have perfectly valid reasons for doing so...when is the line crossed? When does talent (or lack thereof) cease to be a factor in judgement and sheer old begrudgery begin?

TL;DR

Pherekydes

Talent, schmalent.

jtsuited

U2 : made some of the best albums ever made....also went through dodgy patches....but vitally, Bono's an absolute hypocritical gobsh1te. Doesn't make U2 crap though (although they are crap in places).

Westlife: Fcuk Off

Jedward: bit of fun for kids.

Ray Foley: Not the worst radio broadcaster in the country.

jtsuited

haha 'no commercially successful acts are deemed to have any discernible talent':

Rolling Stones, Beatles, Pink Floyd, Radiohead, U2, Coldplay, Muse,etc etc etc

Just because people think that Rhianna, Beyonce and the Pussycat Dolls are complete and utter garbage doesn't mean people are too snobby to like that drivel.

Guill

Else the entire world hasn't a clue and we should all bow down to the superior intellectual knowledge of those with 5,000 or more posts on boards.

Exactly.

My name is URL

I fcukin hate budgerigars.. they think they're so great :mad:

smokedeels

jtsuited wrote: »

U2 : made some of the best albums ever made....also went through dodgy patches....but vitally, Bono's an absolute hypocritical gobsh1te. Doesn't make U2 crap though (although they are crap in places).

Westlife: Fcuk Off

Jedward: bit of fun for kids.

Ray Foley: Not the worst radio broadcaster in the country.

U2: Middle of the road Post-Punk or Echo and the Bunnymen for optimists

Westlife: Well said sir

Jedward: Hey kids, spend more time on your hair than reading books, people will like you more.

Ray Foley: Was he the sanitation commissioner from the Simpsons, if so he is a fine public servant, if not, who?

My point: calling a spade a spade is not begrudgery, "Irish things" don't get preferential treatment. Just because we are all stuck on an Island doesn't mean I need fell joysus when somebody does well and gets off the damn rock, in body or reputation.

orourkeda

leggo wrote: »

Almost as tiring as the accusations of 'begrudgery' on places like this are follow-up arguments of "Is it not possible to just think someone is ****e?!"

But, one has to admit, there is a startling track record of popular people, TV shows, movies etc that have an audience who loyally follow their every move and blissfully ignore the criticism. And, for every Twitter follower, there appears to be someone who wants their head on a platter.

See: Jedward, Ray Foley, The Late Late Show, U2. And so on and so forth. All extremely successful in their own fields, all have several megathreads on boards specifically designed to dissect their every move and cross-reference it with their large paycheque with the common thread of "Grrr I hate this guy/these guys/this show/black people!" (wait...the last one is a different argument altogether actually...)

I even had a similar discussion the other day over at the dance music board (this is just a random example to illustrate the point...not looking to re-open the debate).

And, again, you get compelling arguments for loathing each artist individually. But then, when the dust settles, no commercially successful artists are considered to have any kind of discernable talent. They've connected with millions of people, of all different walks of life, but the hardcore fans consider them to have nothing going for themselves. And have strong arguments to back it up. Surely there's something missing there, though? Else the entire world hasn't a clue and we should all bow down to the superior intellectual knowledge of those with 5,000 or more posts on boards. As if they are the anti-Simon Cowell...judging talent while wearing an 'Ifyoucanreadthisimstaringatyourtits' t-shirt.

So, while yes, there is a case that people genuinely don't like a lot of people who've 'made it' and have perfectly valid reasons for doing so...when is the line crossed? When does talent (or lack thereof) cease to be a factor in judgement and sheer old begrudgery begin?

They're alla shower of ****s

holystungun9

General General wrote: »

begrudgers be-a-grudgin',

so lofty in high dudgeon,

coz whores a be-a-whorin',

facebookin', tweetin', sporing..

ain't no use complainin',

coz that's the way it's stayin'...

ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin' alive, stayin' alive
ah, ah, ah, ah, stayin' alllllllliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiivvvvveeeee.....

wibbles

Leggo has no friends!

electrogrimey

Mainstream pop acts are despised by music snobs because music snobs are the only people who dissect it down to being the formulaic, easily made music that it is, and see that it contains no music merit, only plagiarism of other music. It is a minority that devote their life to studying music, this, the masses, it can be assumed, that like and buy this music don't listen to music this way.

You're argument that the majority are generally right is completely flawed. By this logic, the people who thought the world was flat were right and the people that thought black people were evil were right. It was an overwhelming majority that thought this, and only a small few who argued otherwise. Were they wrong because everyone thought they were?

Irish Guitarist

There's plenty of bands or solo artists that I don't like but I wouldn't call them rubbish. These people can sing or play instruments but the music just isn't to my taste. One example would be Gary Barlow from Take That. He can write songs, plays piano and has a decent voice. His music doesn't appeal to me but I definitely wouldn't accuse him of not having talent.

Just because you don't like an artist doesn't mean their work is rubbish. It just means it doesn't appeal to you.

Jedward have become famous by acting like idiots and performing crap versions of famous songs. I'd say that's vastly different from what Take That do. I don't know enough about Justin Bieber to know if he can sing or not.

Saila

u2..great bunch of lads













and they all have lovely bottoms

derfderf

Op i didn't see the thread in the dance music forum but by any chance were you talking about deadmau5?

Android 666

derfderf wrote: »

Op i didn't see the thread in the dance music forum but by any chance were you talking about deadmau5?

Nah, they're not allowed to talk about Deadmau5 over there since the time a poster starting putting up all his Deadmau5 sex fantasies over on the forum. Needless to say there was vast quantities of butter, lubricant and lots big mouse head eye socket humping mentioned and so now most people just shudder when the name is mentioned.

That and the music is shi-ite!

gargleblaster

electrogrimey wrote: »

Mainstream pop acts are despised by music snobs because music snobs are the only people who dissect it down to being the formulaic, easily made music that it is, and see that it contains no music merit, only plagiarism of other music. It is a minority that devote their life to studying music, this, the masses, it can be assumed, that like and buy this music don't listen to music this way.

I agree with this.

Just like movie snobs, music snobs never seem to be able to get the point that not everyone is only interested in art house films, or only interested in groundbreaking, original music. They never can grasp the idea that other people are capable of liking art *and* fun. And they're only making themselves miserable with their whinging and complaining. It's amusing but also sad. Then again there are those who aren't truly unhappy with the state of things at all, and they just enjoy proudly displaying how elite and informed and superior their taste is. That's not sad though, that's more just pathetic.

KrazeeEyezKilla

People forget that for any successful people having begrudgers/haterz is the big status symbol. Their life story isn't complete unless they can go on about the nay-sayers and the negative moaners trying to keep them down.

Liam Byrne

How is it "begrudgery" though ?

I don't think people know the meaning of the word.

It's like the subset of society who want to read about what Rihanna had for breakfast, or what Katie Price did next, or whatever.

I. DON'T. CARE.

If they're good AT THEIR JOB, then fine.....do it.....they get paid for it and anyone who wants to watch or listen can do so.

I don't care about anything else.

I don't care if you can go for a pint with the Taoiseach (something lots of people said about Bertie) or if Jedward are two sound guys (which they could well be).....I just don't want to hear them when they're doing anything other than their song (which is ironic given the standard of their song, but hey....)

So Jim Corr - make music, don't spout rubbish
Jedward - do your Eurovision act and don't shout half-sentences in American accents
Taoiseach - forget about being a mate and sort out the country
Rihanna - get off Twitter and record a track that'll have the women on the dancefloor that we can at least watch

Simples!

But once a "fan" starts to bull**** about "begrudgery" then it gets people's backs up.

I used to work with a guy who has since gone on to much bigger and better things, being paid way more and getting expenses....and y'know what - he deserves it because he's sound, helpful, damn good and worked hard. I might wish for the same break and working conditions, but I certainly don't "begrudge" him - he deserves it and fair play to him!

But despite the fact that he's a mate and former colleague, if he was ****e or obnoxious I would say so, because the false "you SHOULD support him, no matter how ****e he is, because he's a neighbour, etc" is (at least) half of what's wrong with this country.

Android 666

gargleblaster wrote: »

I agree with this.

Just like movie snobs, music snobs never seem to be able to get the point that not everyone is only interested in art house films, or only interested in groundbreaking, original music. They never can grasp the idea that other people are capable of liking art *and* fun. And they're only making themselves miserable with their whinging and complaining. It's amusing but also sad. Then again there are those who aren't truly unhappy with the state of things at all, and they just enjoy proudly displaying how elite and informed and superior their taste is. That's not sad though, that's more just pathetic.

The inverse is just as likely to happen. You're making the assumption that just because a person has an interest in cinema that they are only going to like arthouse films and are being derogatory because of it. I like films of all kinds but if I say an awful lot of the blockbuster action movies and comedies released in the last decade are vapid and pander the lowest common denominator are you really going to stand there and say I'm being snobbish? I'm not whinging here, I'm merely stating fact and to accuse me of trying to be elitist here would be silly.

Tbf, must people on the electronic music forum would listen to a wide range of music but when they are on that forum they are going to be talking mainly about electronic music, in their own corner without bothering anyone else. Not going through boards loudly proclaiming their music is the best and everybody else is rubbished. What happened with the original poster is that he came onto the electronic music forum and sneered at the notion of 'niche' DJs and was roundly derided for his opinion. If somebody from the electronic music forum went on to the rock music forum and said all metal was crap what do you reckon the outcome would be?

So the OP goes on to a forum sneering at the members, gets it in the neck from everyone on the forum and then comes over to AH licking his wounds and giving out about begrudgery. Does that make sense to you? Doesn't to me...

leggo

Sorry, I forgot this thread existed, doh! Turned into a decent debate too.

Android 666 wrote: »

So the OP goes on to a forum sneering at the members, gets it in the neck from everyone on the forum and then comes over to AH licking his wounds and giving out about begrudgery. Does that make sense to you? Doesn't to me...

Haha. This had nothing to do with that, I literally brought it up as an example because it was in my head re: using boards examples of where people could perceive 'begrudgery'. I'm not giving out about that AT ALL and specifically asked that we keep the conversation away from that argument in particular (for fear that it would get hijacked...as it may already have done...) The only mention of begrudgery in that debate was when I said that if any of us were successful enough to slag off the other, we wouldn't be on boards and would be getting bitched about ON boards. It wasn't a major factor so I don't see how you think I'm 'licking my wounds'.

I've also got blasted for respecting Ryan Tubridy before. This isn't my way of having a dig at the people that said that. So chill out with the conspiracy theories.

I was asking if the round dislike of ANYONE commercially viable point to a begrudgery of their success or does it point to something different...as electrogrimey posited here...

electrogrimey wrote: »

Mainstream pop acts are despised by music snobs because music snobs are the only people who dissect it down to being the formulaic, easily made music that it is, and see that it contains no music merit, only plagiarism of other music. It is a minority that devote their life to studying music, this, the masses, it can be assumed, that like and buy this music don't listen to music this way.

A fair point. But also one that suggests that they have almost polluted certain kinds of music for themselves and have therefore harmed their credibility and bias in commenting on said artists?

In reality, listening to hours of varied music doesn't necessarily mean that you are better qualified to judge what music is good and bad. That is a matter of individual opinion.

HOWEVER, if one was looking to differentiate themselves from the crowd, or justify their own strong passion for their preferred music, claiming to be 'more qualified' to do so would be a good way of creating a stick to use to beat other, alternative taste with.

When, at the end of the day, your opinion, mine and that of my 9-year old sister are equally relevant. In that they are individually just one opinion. Anyway, we're getting off-topic.

You're argument that the majority are generally right is completely flawed.

My argument wasn't that the majority are generally right.

My argument was that IF you are going to introduce the perception of "X is stupid for enjoying this", then the only fair way to gauge what is considered right and wrong is by what is most popular. Or else the entire world would be deemed stupid and the word would lose all meaning, thereby rendering the initial point moot anyway.

In reality, enjoyment is subjective to each individual so there is no majority (by way of popularity) OR minority (by way of snobbery and/or perceived 'qualification to judge') rules equation here. Nobody is stupid for enjoying anything. Yes, even Godfather 3, unfortunate as that may be...

KrazeeEyezKilla wrote: »

People forget that for any successful people having begrudgers/haterz is the big status symbol. Their life story isn't complete unless they can go on about the nay-sayers and the negative moaners trying to keep them down.

This is true. Very good point. So, with that said and the fact that we're talking about the nature of begrudgery in mind, back on topic we go!

gargleblaster

Android 666 wrote: »

The inverse is just as likely to happen. You're making the assumption that just because a person has an interest in cinema that they are only going to like arthouse films and are being derogatory because of it. I like films of all kinds but if I say an awful lot of the blockbuster action movies and comedies released in the last decade are vapid and pander the lowest common denominator are you really going to stand there and say I'm being snobbish? I'm not whinging here, I'm merely stating fact and to accuse me of trying to be elitist here would be silly.

Not at all. I like arthouse films myself, but I also like 'bad' films. And no I would not say that you are being snobbish if you say that you think those films are vapid, only if you go on to say that anyone who disagrees with you is vapid (or whatever other derogatory word). I didn't mean to say that anyone who doesn't like 'bad' films is a snob, just those who insult vast swaths of people because they disagree with their taste in films.

Tbf, must people on the electronic music forum would listen to a wide range of music but when they are on that forum they are going to be talking mainly about electronic music, in their own corner without bothering anyone else. Not going through boards loudly proclaiming their music is the best and everybody else is rubbished. What happened with the original poster is that he came onto the electronic music forum and sneered at the notion of 'niche' DJs and was roundly derided for his opinion. If somebody from the electronic music forum went on to the rock music forum and said all metal was crap what do you reckon the outcome would be?

So the OP goes on to a forum sneering at the members, gets it in the neck from everyone on the forum and then comes over to AH licking his wounds and giving out about begrudgery. Does that make sense to you? Doesn't to me...

:pac:

No. In no way does that make sense. Thanks for filling me in on the background. People are funny.

leggo

gargleblaster wrote: »

No. In no way does that make sense. Thanks for filling me in on the background. People are funny.

It doesn't make sense because it's not what happened. More a case of someone saying "Woah relax, why are we slagging off one section of DJs when they can say this about another section?" Then everyone jumping on the high horse saying, "HEY HE'S ONE OF THEM DJs SAYING THAT ABOUT US! LET'S GET HIM!" Then me saying, "Em I wasn't actually saying that..."

And pretty much just constant trolling since then. You've seen one of the troll accounts pop up in this thread, for example.

But let's leave that to that board instead. Trust me, everyone's heads will be better for it. We're talking about the nature of begrudgery here.

If it'll keep the debate worth having, let's leave dance music out of it. It was a random example so we've loads still to go on.

electrogrimey

leggo wrote: »

In reality, listening to hours of varied music doesn't necessarily mean that you are better qualified to judge what music is good and bad. That is a matter of individual opinion.

HOWEVER, if one was looking to differentiate themselves from the crowd, or justify their own strong passion for their preferred music, claiming to be 'more qualified' to do so would be a good way of creating a stick to use to beat other, alternative taste with.

The whole point is that music is not solely about enjoyment. McDonalds is often more enjoyable than bacon and cabbage, that doesn't mean it's good food. A major factor in the critical judgement of music is its depth, complexity, musical merit, and hopefully, inherent genius. The fact is that the majority of popular music, with the obvious exceptions of people like Queen, the Beatles etc, have very little depth, complexity, musical merit, or inherent genius, they're simply enjoyable. Much like McDonalds.

So, taking into account the other factors involved in critically judging music, naturally those who are more learned in assessing depth, complexity, and musical merit, perhaps with knowledge of musical theory, history, and harmony, are indeed more qualified to judge than someone taking it at face value.

You need to realise that it's not simply one opinion against an alternative opinion, there is a huge amount of fact involved. Your thinking of music is very like a religious person's view on religion. They believe blindly that it's simply opinion vs opinion, whereas the atheist has a huge amount of fact on his side.

Donal Og O Baelach

leggo wrote: »

so...when is the line crossed? When does talent (or lack thereof) cease to be a factor in judgement and sheer old begrudgery begin?

Good question.

I don't think there is a line there at all, they are 2 different things. To state that someone has no talent is a valid and worthy argument to make - but to attack someone personally, (make fun of their intellect, weight, style of dress, etc,) because they have no talent, is quite irrational and implies some kind of inferiority issue from the poster.

Android 666

Donal Og O Baelach wrote: »

Good question.

I don't think there is a line there at all, they are 2 different things. To state that someone has no talent is a valid and worthy argument to make - but to attack someone personally, (make fun of their intellect, weight, style of dress, etc,) because they have no talent, is quite irrational and implies some kind of inferiority issue from the poster.

Nah, I don't believe that at all. If I call Liam Gallagher a talentless, scarf wearing mongoloid it's not because I have an inferiority complex or I'm a begrudger. It's because it's the truth.

Kanoe

poor minds talk about people etc..I don't get people who sit around and talk about other people all the time, or celebrity....bores the f/ck out of me

Donal Og O Baelach

Android 666 wrote: »

Nah, I don't believe that at all. If I call Liam Gallagher a talentless, scarf wearing mongoloid it's not because I have an inferiority complex or I'm a begrudger. It's because it's the truth.

Fair point.
But (after the talentless bit) you are no longer talking about his abilities (or lack of) as a musician/singer etc. You're talking about his scarf, and his resemblance to a native of Mongolia. Why do you care about his scarf? What makes you take the time to type a comment on it?