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Israel murder 12 people throwing stones

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Comments

  • #242
    brimal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭brimal


    The Saint wrote: »
    I'm sure your two days holidays gave you a superb insight into the security political situation in the city. I suppose you didn't wander outside the Dung gate and stroll down the hill to Silwan while you were taking in the sights? No doubt your two days of sightseeing gave you an indepth insight into the core issues in the city.

    I was all over Israel (for more than the 2 days you seem to have misread) and saw first hand the terrible oppressive acts they commit. In the West Bank I saw the huge walls built by Israel to prevent West Bank communities from entering Israel, the shanty towns that some Arab communities have to live in, the checkpoint after checkpoint that Israelis subject people (especially Arabs) to, etc.

    The topic of this thread was about the protesters. I was commenting on what I saw on this topic. If you want to speak about the 'core issues of the city' then start a thread on that.

    Also I would like to know why the tone in your post? My post wasn't offensive or provocative - yet you reply with a tone that is sarcastic, angry and rude.

    Do you comment with the same tone, or even comment at all, on other world conflicts?


  • #243
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    Pauleta wrote: »
    A pre-empted strike.

    There is no such thing as a right to pre-emptive self defence.


  • #244
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    Cassidy Obnoxious Tonsillitis wrote: »

    Israel had a right to defend its borders this week, and done so.

    Regardless of all that - attacking any countries borders and threatening an invasion will always land you in a heap loud of trouble.

    When the attackers are chanting that they'll die and sacrifice themselves for their cause, and they do just that - well don't come whinging and crying to me about it.

    They do of course have a right to defend their borders, that's not really in question, it's the manner in which they do so that's the issue. Throwing stones is not a threat of invasion, it's basically civil disturbance which can be dealt with without lethal force. Just because the people chant they are willing to die does not mean there is any right to kill them.


  • #245
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    thegreengoblin wrote: »
    Of course it is. But my point is that until the Palestinians turn away from Hamas they are not going to get anywhere.

    In the West Bank, there getting no where as well. Remember Fatah are running the show there btw, and all they have gotten are more settlements for there trouble.

    Also, this kind of crap happened long before Hamas even existed, so there hardly the main issue. Hamas are a symptom and not the problem. The problem is the occupation.


  • #246
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    thegreengoblin wrote: »

    And look what supporting the IRA did for Nationalists in Northern Ireland. There's a lesson there for the Palestinians to heed but I somehow I don't think they'll pay any attention.

    There is a responsibility for Palestinians to reject violence but Israel as a state also has a responsibility to make this possible by ending their oppressive treatment and illegal occupations. It works both ways. Israel's current policies actively encourage violence.


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  • #247
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Cassidy Obnoxious Tonsillitis wrote: »
    Israel had a right to defend its borders this week, and done so.

    So presumably you support the Palestinians equal right to defend their borders, right?


  • #248
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Predalien wrote: »
    They do of course have a right to defend their borders, that's not really in question, it's the manner in which they do so that's the issue. Throwing stones is not a threat of invasion, it's basically civil disturbance which can be dealt with without lethal force. Just because the people chant they are willing to die does not mean there is any right to kill them.


    I'm on a mobile phone atm so you'll gave to excuse me not posting links.

    Just forgetting for a moment that attacking any countries borders will likely have you shot, ki posted earlier in the thread a recent incident here in Ireland which had an Irish soldier shoot at intruders at the midlands prison, they breechef a security tense.

    Right so we're talking about Israeli soldiers.

    Both Hezbollah and Palestinians have kidnapped Israeli soldiers from both borders and continue to hold them, and I might also remind people that the longest held kidnap victim in Lebanon is an Irish soldier kidnapped by the PLO.

    I'd say it too real guts and discipline for the IDF not to have went gun's blazing at the crowds in defence of their own lives.

    It really doesn't matter if the crowd armed themselves with stones or guns, their was a threat on the lives of thr soldiers guarding the border, and a threat to the country being invaded.

    In any country any where else in the world the result would have been thr same, our worse.

    A regards whatever happened at Gaza, I've never been there and can only guess that the physical border defences are similar to those on the Lebanese border.

    If you'd like links to any of the above I can get them when I'm home later.


  • #249
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    In the West, I doubt it very much, tbh.


  • #250
    AeoNGriM
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭AeoNGriM


    Warper wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13373006

    Stay classy Israel as always. Look on USA

    Very sad to still be reading stuff like this on the news everyday. But seriously, politics aside, who the hell in their right mind throws stones at armed soldiers? What did they think was going to happen?


  • #251
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    The Israeli wrote: »
    Ask yourself:

    Around 140 people bridging a barbed wired fence. They call to free Palestine and urge into the nearby village of Megdel Shams. Some of them are armed with stones.
    Now it's a matter of time: Behind them there are thousands that want to do the same. Among them there are terror groups that would like to use this opportunity and infiltrate into Israel.
    How would you act instead of Israel? Like really.. talk to their hearts? ask them nicely to leave?
    Accordingly to Israel by the Israeli fire 2-4 Syrians have been killed and dozens were wounded. The rest, accordingly to Israel were killed and wounded by the Syrians. Now, you may not believe to the Israeli numbers, but would you believe to the Syrian numbers? The same syrians who have killed hundreds of their own and tried to distort the truth about what is happening in their country?
    Why did the syrian army didn't stop these demonstrators? What could Israel do otherwise? Israel was prepared for this day, but failed to unticipate the border bridging. A border which is 200 kilometers long.

    You all should know that if Israel wouldn't have opened fire (the order was to fire to the legs) and didn't restrain itself (yes, it did) the outcome could be thousands of Syrians in Israel, Syrian terror groups including Hizbalah and Al Qaeda too maybe. Hundreds would have died and a serious shake to the stability in the region.

    Before you blame, think.
    If you have any military experience you would know that there was no other quick and effective way to stop the deterioration at the border beside opening fire, at that time, with the means that Israel had at that place. Aagain, soldiers were ordered to shoot to the legs, the orders are always to the legs. But soldiers are humans, and they may miss the legs of moving people. You wouldn't be any better at this.
    Sounds horrible to some delicate ears, but it's the reality that some of you probably don't know and fail to understand.
    You can suggest how to stop a moving inflamed crowd from crossing the border and after crossing how to get it back, and if you were too slow how to deal with the situation, because the infiltrated terrorists inside of Israel could reach a significant number within several hours.

    Again, every death of a cevilian is tragedy, but in reallity, they knew the risk, THEY LED TO IT, and their tragic death saved many many deaths of others, Israeli deaths and Syrian deaths.


    Ill put it this way. If there was squatters on your land who wouldnt leave and those squatters were given half of your land by a third party you wouldnt be happy would you? Thats the situation israel is in. They were promised palestinian land by other people against the wishs of the palestinians and the israelis act shocked when the palestinians try and get their land back! Instead of talking about it they then impose restriction on every aspect of life on the palestinians, treat them with contempt and shoot to kill. Israel bombs their villages from afar agaisnt the wishes of the UN.

    Yet after all this im supposed to beleive the palestinians are the primary aggressors :confused:.

    Isreal have no right to be treating the palestinians the way they do If my people were treated like that I almost certainly would take action. Instead of talking baout it israel has a bunch of apes with guns operating on a shoot to kill policy!


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  • #252
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Cassidy Obnoxious Tonsillitis wrote: »
    I'm on a mobile phone atm so you'll gave to excuse me not posting links.

    Just forgetting for a moment that attacking any countries borders will likely have you shot, ki posted earlier in the thread a recent incident here in Ireland which had an Irish soldier shoot at intruders at the midlands prison, they breechef a security tense.

    Right so we're talking about Israeli soldiers.

    Both Hezbollah and Palestinians have kidnapped Israeli soldiers from both borders and continue to hold them, and I might also remind people that the longest held kidnap victim in Lebanon is an Irish soldier kidnapped by the PLO.

    I'd say it too real guts and discipline for the IDF not to have went gun's blazing at the crowds in defence of their own lives.

    It really doesn't matter if the crowd armed themselves with stones or guns, their was a threat on the lives of thr soldiers guarding the border, and a threat to the country being invaded.

    In any country any where else in the world the result would have been thr same, our worse.

    A regards whatever happened at Gaza, I've never been there and can only guess that the physical border defences are similar to those on the Lebanese border.

    If you'd like links to any of the above I can get them when I'm home later.

    Luckily for us the whole world does not operate on a simple "they attacked or border well" shoot them ect. The issue is regarding wheter those borders should have been there in the fisrt place.


  • #253
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    Cassidy Obnoxious Tonsillitis wrote: »
    I'm on a mobile phone atm so you'll gave to excuse me not posting links.

    Just forgetting for a moment that attacking any countries borders will likely have you shot, ki posted earlier in the thread a recent incident here in Ireland which had an Irish soldier shoot at intruders at the midlands prison, they breechef a security tense.

    Right so we're talking about Israeli soldiers.

    Both Hezbollah and Palestinians have kidnapped Israeli soldiers from both borders and continue to hold them, and I might also remind people that the longest held kidnap victim in Lebanon is an Irish soldier kidnapped by the PLO.

    I'd say it too real guts and discipline for the IDF not to have went gun's blazing at the crowds in defence of their own lives.

    It really doesn't matter if the crowd armed themselves with stones or guns, their was a threat on the lives of thr soldiers guarding the border, and a threat to the country being invaded.

    In any country any where else in the world the result would have been thr same, our worse.

    A regards whatever happened at Gaza, I've never been there and can only guess that the physical border defences are similar to those on the Lebanese border.

    If you'd like links to any of the above I can get them when I'm home later.

    Yes it does, you meet a threat with proportionate force, not all guns blazing. How does it take guts and discipline to not commit what would have been a massacre?

    Also why does the previous kidnap of Israeli soldiers equate to any right to use lethal force against any new threat? Plus, it's a war situation, there will be prisoners taken on both sides. That doesn't make it right but it's a reality of conflict situations.


  • #254
    keano_afc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,713 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    Just a quick question, what do people believe would have been the appropriate response from the Israelis to having their borders breached?


  • #255
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Predalien wrote: »
    Yes it does, you meet a threat with proportionate force, not all guns blazing. How does it take guts and discipline to not commit what would have been a massacre?

    Also why does the previous kidnap of Israeli soldiers equate to any right to use lethal force against any new threat? Plus, it's a war situation, there will be prisoners taken on both sides. That doesn't make it right but it's a reality of conflict situations.

    Guts and discipline in relation to this act is defined as b*llox in websters dictionary!


  • #256
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    keano_afc wrote: »
    Just a quick question, what do people believe would have been the appropriate response from the Israelis to having their borders breached?

    Do you think the palestinians have a right to dispute those borders that were imposed on them?


  • #257
    keano_afc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,713 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Do you think the palestinians have a right to dispute those borders that were imposed on them?

    Thats not an answer to the question I asked.


  • #258
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    keano_afc wrote: »
    Thats not an answer to the question I asked.

    Its a lot more valid than your question


  • #259
    eamo12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 210 ✭✭eamo12


    Palestinians have posted on Facebooks for months — openly — that the Third Intifada would begin May 15th. Um, that’s TODAY. There were pages up all over the place calling for it.

    Israel has every right to protect it's borders and have shown great restraint given the seriousness of the incursions. God bless and give strength Israel.


  • #260
    keano_afc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,713 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Its a lot more valid than your question

    The thread is not about borders and who owns what. Its about the reaction of the IDF. Which is why I asked a question you obviously dont want to answer.


  • #261
    Predalien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 946 ✭✭✭Predalien


    keano_afc wrote: »
    Thats not an answer to the question I asked.

    But it is relevant, since many here argue Israel is merely defending their borders and have the right to do so, shouldn't we look at where the borders should be? Since Israel is illegally occupying much of the land then surely the logical inference is that it is the Palestinians that are defending the breach of their borders and not the other way round?


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  • #262
    CrackisWhack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 852 ✭✭✭CrackisWhack


    keano_afc wrote: »
    Just a quick question, what do people believe would have been the appropriate response from the Israelis to having their borders breached?


    It was an unarmed crowd, (ok they had sticks & stones)

    So:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/M%C3%B3tm%C3%A6li_v%C3%B6rub%C3%ADlstj%C3%B3ra_1.jpg


  • #263
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    eamo12 wrote: »
    Palestinians have posted on Facebooks for months — openly — that the Third Intifada would begin May 15th. Um, that’s TODAY. There were pages up all over the place calling for it.

    Yes, and way before any such calls, settlements still being built on Palestinian land. Hmmm, might be a connection there me thinks........

    **EDIT**
    Also, aren't Israel settlers violating Palestinian borders. I take it, you think they should be shot too.......... Right?


  • #264
    keano_afc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,713 ✭✭✭keano_afc


    Predalien wrote: »
    But it is relevant, since many here argue Israel is merely defending their borders and have the right to do so, shouldn't we look at where the borders should be? Since Israel is illegally occupying much of the land then surely the logical inference is that it is the Palestinians that are defending the breach of their borders and not the other way round?

    But is that not an argument for another day? Its Israeli land, whether you agree with the current border set up or not. The protesters crossed the border into Israel, and therefore put themselves at the risk of harm. Which is why I asked the question in the first place.


  • #265
    eamo12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 210 ✭✭eamo12


    If you riot on Israels border then you risk getting shot at, much the same way as if you stand in front of a Caterpillar, you have a good chance of getting run over.


  • #266
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    eamo12 wrote: »
    If you riot on Israels border then you risk getting shot at, much the same way as if you stand in front of a Caterpillar, you have a good chance of getting run over.

    You mean the Caterpillars, that are being used by Israel deep within Palestinian territory? Seems bit of a double standard......


  • #267
    Wild_Dogger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Wild_Dogger


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50eSv60Z_No

    thats the footage of theborder breach .

    Make your own mind up .

    I think its a beautiful and highly emotional piece of footage .


  • #268
    The Israeli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭The Israeli


    steddyeddy - you are so off topic, and I'll tell you why:

    The topic is: Israel murdered 12 people throwing stones.
    I explained the events and Israel's choices. I explained why Israel had to do what it did + that it wasn't 12 at all.

    I asked of the people that oppose Israeli's side - Could you do any better if you ruled the country that day? Nobody answered. No, you probably couldn't under those circumstances.
    Let's blame Israel for all and go further to this scenario: The Syrians demonstrate everyday and cross the border everyday. At least, try.
    Israel in defence kill 4 syrians every day. Who's fault is it now?

    Do you think the innocent demostrators expected that Israel would let them put itself in the risk of open burder with an enemy state?
    They knew that it wouldn't be tolerable.
    The palestinians maintain their status as refugees throuhtout 67 years on purpose. If they didn't want to be live like refugees I think that 67 years would have been enough time to recover. It's 3 generations period!
    The problem is that they want what they can't get - They want the land as it was before 48. If you heard the demostrators you would hear that they want back to the Israeli cities. The moderate leaking of wikileaks that were mentioned here 2 months ago don't speak for those demostrators.

    The people that are going into politics again are going over and over about the same subjects that have been talked about 2 months ago very widely on this forum, and countless times before.
    If you want to denounce Israel for yesterday's killing, I'm ready to listen and answer. But if you denounce, then be fair and explain how Israel could do better Yesterday.

    As I see it from your point of view:

    Palestinians do nothing - they suffer - they win the public sympathy.
    Palestinians cross border - get killed - endanger Israeli security - they win the public sympathy.

    Israel does nothing - it losses.
    Israel protects it's borders - it losses.

    Accordingly to this math the Palestinians should get killed for their own good. The cause justifies the means, ai?

    Do you understand that by being on their side in their actions during yesterday - crossing the border and throwing stones, you give them a back wind. You encourage them to continue. You encourage them to get killed.
    Next time that they attempt it again they will probably come more "ready", and you, yes you, are the people that fear for human lives have encouraged them in the first place.
    You, the people that got shocked by the "massive murder done by Israel". You played to their hands.

    Israel can't win because the "Palestinian people" won't rest until they gets what they want - that's what they say, at least the demostrators.
    If it protects the borders, it looses again. It looses by every little Palestinian provocation. Israel always accounted to give the answers. The Palestinians have no responsibility not for their lives, nor for the stability.

    As someone has said: if you want to talk about politics, open a new thread.
    He's half right. I say, read the previous threads. All is there.


  • #269
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,891 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    How can you expect to have a civil debate when the thread title is so purposely misleading?


  • #270
    richymcdermott
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,447 ✭✭✭richymcdermott


    Isreal are abunch of jerks


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  • #271
    Wild_Dogger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Wild_Dogger


    Palestinian refugees have a fundemental human right to return to their home .

    Isreal breaks international law .

    If you were born in Palestine , and your country was invaded , and illeagly occupied , and your house was torn down and your land confiscated what would you do ?

    2 choices for the Palestinian

    (1) Join three consecutive generations living in refugee camp
    or
    (2) Resist .

    Its plain and simple ,...

    Any resistence to illegal occupation is called 'terrorism' .

    There is a basic Human right to a refugee , and that is the right of return .
    Its clear , and uncomplicated .


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