How much do you think I should get paid?

splendid101 · 15-05-2011 03:51PM

The changes in the last budget have no affect on the current staff so are a waste of time bearing in mind there is a recruitment embargo in place and we have had numerous reports stating there are thousands of excess unneeded clerical officers

Can you cite some of these sources ("numerous reports")please?

Also, I'm pretty sure that the changes to pension do affect all current staff. Can't find a source for that at the moment.

hello and welcome to ireland 2011 , . it may very well have escaped your attention we all know public /civil servants are extremely busy and preoccupied and dont always know what is going on in real world but as a country we are totally totally broke , we are depending on europe/imf to maintain ourselves , so in a way you are right '' comparison to wages in europe have little or no relevance '' they should be LOWER than the rest of europe , apart from greece , ireland , portugal the rest of europe are not insolvent at least for time been anyway . what the hjell will it take to make irish people realize that the false bubble they lived in for 10 years or so is over , and that public servants , private servants , unemployed , pensioners etc ,should not or cannot continue to be paid multiples of what they would be paid in countries in europe that is lending us money to keep going , to think we are entitled to more is the same delusional model that created this situation in the first place

Thanks for the ignorant comment trying to insult me.

Saying wages should be lower is comparing them. We are paid more than places like Spain and Germany because it is more expensive to live here and people earn more here in general. Stuff is more expensive here. You can't decide to give someone the same as in another country just because we're all in Europe. You don't know what I get and more importantly, you don't know what I think I should get. Maybe I think my wages should be cut further. Did you ever consider that? Maybe I've agreed to the paycuts so far.

Don't try to insult me, just react to what I say.

The more I think about it the more I can't think of a reason why we are hiring people on permanent pensionable contracts for photocopying, printing and typing.

People deserve steady employment regardless of their skills. I don't know if you mean permanent or unsackable. I don't think Civil Servants should be (pretty much) unsackable as they currently are, but they should be offered permanent positions just as people are in McDonalds or Forever 21 or Goodbody Stockbrokers etc.

Why not?

OP take one of my many occupations/skillsets and let me know how much I should get paid,I,m a so called professional truck driver at the moment

I've no idea how much you should be paid. More than minimum wage I would say though.

However, I wouldn't say you get people texting in radio shows saying how much you should be paid.

For "the real world" you could substitute "the private sector"

Not good enough. Offensive comment.

I live in the real world. I pay taxes, I use public transport, I buy groceries every week, I have a hobby, I like going to the cinema, I have a girlfriend, I like a drink occasionally. I have a **** job. I'm a perfectly normal person with a twisted sense of humour. I live in the real world.

A clerical officer is usually a relatively new entrant

Not true. Most COs in my office are in the Civil Service 6/7 years. It's the bottom of the scale but I'd say most people don't move up above it.

Yet fairly recently student nurses we being asked to do their job for nothing... As always with the PS the front line gets shafted the most and the monkies get rewarded..

Don't call me a monkey.

I am completely against student nurses being expected to work without being paid.

Yup, totally agree with this. Many people are unaware that most Germans don't actually live in Munich, Frankfurt or Hamburg. In regular cities the size of e.g., Cork, you have good public transport, childcare facilities and hospitals. A beer can be as low (from my experience) as €1 or €1.50 in local bars. Berlin is an exception to be a capital city that is signficantly lower in cost of living compared to other capital cities. E.g., small cities like Freiburg im Breisgau you'd quite easily have a pizza for €3.50 in a restaurant, and Ive seen similar in Munich (very nice Italian places - but more like €5-6).

It's completely possible to live in a city in Germany on 20k with your family. It';s completely impossible in Ireland as the government here replicated the feudalistic pyramid to drag the wealth to Dublin - like London and Paris - with the result being devastating. Germany has far more equal and comparable distribution of wealth among cities and so too does the Netherlands (to an extent - in the Randstad at least). You don't have most of Germany being poor like Northern England and 20 million people living in Berlin (because that is the equal comparison to London).

Thanks for the post. I don't understand the logic behind comparing Irish wages to those of other countries. The same with social welfare.

Maybe they should pay you 5¢ per page photocopied and €3 for typing original letters (not copied/pasted or a standard reply).

Thanks for offering the pay rise. You've no idea how much I photocopy.

OP, I'd put you on €9 p/h. (although I suspect you get a lot more) There's a lot of benefits coming with the job, and as you've said yourself it's pretty basic stuff, no qualifications required, no real responsibility, no risks.

If you're only doing low level admin work with no responsibility you should probably be taking home €300 a week.

I do have responsibilities.

Where is the OP... did he come in half cut last night at 10 to 1 ask the question and bugger off?

Don't think he's too bothered what we think he should be earning

I've already being back bro. And I was 3/4s cut. One of my posts was deleted because I said "f*ck you" to someone.

You're probably around 20. Just under if you didn't do a leaving or just above if you did.

I'm 29. Just cos I've a **** job doesn't mean I'm a kid.

Rather than talking money, what do you think yourself in terms of expectations. You're saying yourself entry level, still quite unskilled tasks, 35 hrs per week. Does the above sound right or would you think you should easily run a car, live alone rather than sharing (always desirable but so much easier in my country), holiday no bother?

I don't see the relevance. Everyone has different expectations. COs are necessary to the running of our society.

In this country why would anyone bother getting out of bed for less than 400 to 450 a week (after tax).

To earn a living and have a quality of life.

I think you should get paid €0.

We should computerise everything so we don't need anyone to print things, photocopy things, and type printed things back into the computer.

We can have a small number of contractors who are kept to do the no-choice-but-to-use-a-paper-based-system tasks.

I would also bet money we could get one person to do the work of two people in the current system.

So I don't get to be one of those contractors? Why not? We are you sacking me in your fantasy system? Who is going to administer the computer system? Who is going to computerise "everything"? Who's going to answer the phones?

COs are necessary.

He has already said what he does:

That's just a summary. See above.

A note to all on this thread:

Please stop insulting me. I'm an ordinary prson working in what is a pretty **** job. I work hard, as do most people in my office. I do paperwork. I print up form letters after adapting them to suit the individual case. I type up original letters based on a framework. I photocopy large files (often up to several hundred pages). I speak to people on the phone. I do up excel spreadsheets. I work at a reception desk. It's a busy office. It's not rocket science or particularly challenging but it is necessary. Someone has to do what I do. There's no robots and the paperless office is a long way off in Ireland. I work to strict and tight deadlines. I need organisational skills, communication skills, people skills, research skills.

I've worked in a bookies and worked in the file room of an insurance company. I was paid better in both those jobs than I currently am. Both those private sector jobs were less challenging than my current work.

As I've stressed, I'm just a normal guy. I live a normal life. I've no sense of entitlement. The civil service needs restructuring. The Croke Park deal is working but doesn't go far enough. The Civil Service should be a meritocracy. Promotions are usually based on seniority which doesn't do me any favours.

Lots of people have commented on the work I do and how much I should be paid. I've put myself out there and will be saying how uch I earn.

It would make the underhand comments (comparing me to a monkey etc.) easier to take if I knew what ye did and what ye got paid. I'm not saying you need to do that - it's just something to bare in mind when commenting.

We'd all love to have challenging jobs we could be proud of and be well remunerated for those efforts but life isn't always perfect.

I'll make a note of my pay packet and the contents therein tomorrow when I'm in the office and the mystery will be revealed.

A note on the pension:

I'm very grateful for my pension. It's brilliant. It's particularly unfair with the latest revelations as to private pensions being raided.
I'm aware that the amount I pay towards the pension does not equal what I'll be getting when I retire.

I've been in the job just under three years. That means I've another 37 years before I'll get my pension. Will my pension exist in 37 years? Will I actually get anything? I'm not 100% convinced. I hope so but who knows?

Further, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

If I am entitled to a pension in 37 years and my wages are cut now (as they have been three times since I began working in the civil service), I still may not be able to afford my rent. I can't tell my landlord, "don't worry brah, I'll give you the rent in 37 years - I've got my pension coming". This is something very important to keep in mind. My pension is mandatory. I can't access it while I'm' working. A paycut is a paycut, whether you've a pension to look forward to in retirement or not.

Something to bare in mind.

Just to restress, I'm aware of the generous terms of my pension arrangement so don't give me any sh*te about that.

A further note, look at the length of this post. There are issues here for discussion. Dismissive, disrespectful, insulting, smart *rsed posts aren't conducive to my good mood.

Thanks y'all,

Alan

sarumite · 15-05-2011 04:42PM

splendid101 wrote: »

Saying wages should be lower is comparing them. We are paid more than places like Spain and Germany because it is more expensive to live here and people earn more here in general. Stuff is more expensive here. You can't decide to give someone the same as in another country just because we're all in Europe. You don't know what I get and more importantly, you don't know what I think I should get. Maybe I think my wages should be cut further. Did you ever consider that? Maybe I've agreed to the paycuts so far.

Personally I think is dumb to compare a job like CO to other countries when an equivalent job exists in the private sector in Ireland. I would say you should be paid slightly lower than the Irish private sector equivalent due to job security in my opinion.

People deserve steady employment regardless of their skills. I don't know if you mean permanent or unsackable. I don't think Civil Servants should be (pretty much) unsackable as they currently are, but they should be offered permanent positions just as people are in McDonalds or Forever 21 or Goodbody Stockbrokers etc.

Why not?

But does the tax payer need to be employing fulltime people with great pensions to do this job or can some of them be contracted out so as to save money? If yes, then we should do that. What people deserve and what the government can afford are two totally different things, especially in the current economic climate.

However, I wouldn't say you get people texting in radio shows saying how much you should be paid.

My guess is the people paying their wages are suggesting how much they should be paid. Unfortuantely for you, that person is the tax payer and for many texting into a radio show may feels like the only oppurtunity they get to question how their money is being spent.

Just to restress, I'm aware of the generous terms of my pension arrangement so don't give me any sh*te about that.

While not wanting to give you any hassle, your pensios is part of your renumeration package. If you have a great penions, then you should expect lower pay compared to someone doing the same job without the great pension.

Fittle · 15-05-2011 05:22PM

Hi OP:D

Firstly, can I say that you have started a very interesting thread here, and the very fact that you started it screams to me that you will never accept your life as a 'lowly civil-servant'.

Secondly. I was a civil servant one time. I worked in a Dept that allowed me to travel (pure fluke) so I spent about 8yrs in Europe/USA.

But had I stayed in Ire, I would have strived to get up the ranks of my Dept, and stuck with it. As it was, I came home, got quite disillusioned and resigned and have been working in the private sector for some time.

I have seen how the civil service can kill your enthusiasm...I have been in an office, where people did nothing all day/abused the flexi-system/accepted their paychecks every week with enthusiasm despite the fact that they did about ten hours 'work' that week.

But in their defence - we all do the job that suits us at the time, whether we have kids/want to travel/elderly parents etc. So I think (to answer your query) that your salary should be around the 30k region.

MysticalRain · 15-05-2011 05:25PM

splendid101 wrote: »

Saying wages should be lower is comparing them. We are paid more than places like Spain and Germany because it is more expensive to live here and people earn more here in general. Stuff is more expensive here. You can't decide to give someone the same as in another country just because we're all in Europe. You don't know what I get and more importantly, you don't know what I think I should get. Maybe I think my wages should be cut further. Did you ever consider that? Maybe I've agreed to the paycuts so far.

Does it every occur to you that it's crazy civil service wages that have been driving up inflation during the last 10 years? I know you can say the same about excessive private sector wages during the boom times as well. But almost everybody in the private sector has come back down to reality now.

Also, part of my job involves automating the kind of work that a Clerical Officer does, and even I don't earn what a Clerical Officer in the PS gets.

dan_d · 15-05-2011 05:41PM

Op - do you not know what your salary is?

(Sorry, I don't know how the payment system works in there, but in any job I've had, I knew exactly what I was being paid yearly. How can a person not know??)

Would you agree with those posts that aren't insulting you or your work personally, that say what you should/could be paid in comparison to a similar position in the private sector? (or maybe that's better answered when you know what your wage is)

There's not much point comparing to other EU countries and their systems, as it's not like with like. It's probably closer to compare to a similar position in the private sector. Particularly since that's what benchmarking was set against in the first place.

splendid101 · 15-05-2011 05:43PM

But does the tax payer need to be employing fulltime people with great pensions to do this job or can some of them be contracted out so as to save money? If yes, then we should do that. What people deserve and what the government can afford are two totally different things, especially in the current economic climate.

I'm all for a more efficient civil service. That doesn't mean I should lose my job if there's work for me to be doing. There are people in my office who should be sacked. I'm not one of them.

My guess is the people paying their wages are suggesting how much they should be paid. Unfortuantely for you, that person is the tax payer and for many texting into a radio show may feels like the only oppurtunity they get to question how their money is being spent.

My point was that I'm not going to speculate on how much a truck drive should be paid. People are free to text into radio shows if they like. People send in messages saying all public servants should have their wages cut by 10% or 30% or whatever, but they don't acually know how much I'm getting. It's very frustrating. A lot of people on this thread think I should get paid more than I do, but from the tone and content of their posts, it would seem they think I get paid too much. So they obviously are talking sh*te.

If you have a great penions, then you should expect lower pay compared to someone doing the same job without the great pension.

I agree 100%.

can I say that you have started a very interesting thread here

Thanks, very interesting to me too. Especially all the people giving me pay raises.

you started it screams to me that you will never accept your life as a 'lowly civil-servant'

What you talkin' 'bout Willis?

Does it every occur to you that it's crazy civil service wages that have been driving up inflation during the last 10 years? I know you can say the same about excessive private sector wages during the boom times as well. But almost everybody in the private sector has come back down to reality now.

Isn't it 70% of Private Sector that have taken paycuts? I've taken 3 paycuts since I began.

Also, part of my job involves automating the kind of work that a Clerical Officer does, and even I don't earn what a Clerical Officer in the PS gets.

I'd be interested in hearing more about your work. What I do in my office cannot be automated.

You'd have to tell me what you earn before I believed that you got paid less than me. Even if you do, so what? You don't know what I think I should be paid.

kudos73 · 15-05-2011 05:45PM

I went for a job interview the otherday, during the meeting I was told if I was taken on i would be paid 10 euro's an hour, no pension contributions. If i needed private healthcare that would come from my wages...

the job was in a warehouse picking and packing stock for distribution throughout Ireland. I wouldn't be dealing with the public, (i dont know if you do, as I couldnt be arsed reading through reems and reems of pages) but i did see you say you have a stressful job. Tell me a person in a job that doesn't have a level of stress within their job.

But the nature of the job (i went for) is kinda full on as the day goes on, trying to meet the courier deadline, so the stock can be delivered to the customer by the next day.

so I reckon somewhere around €400 mark for your self is a fair wage.

But the thing that bugs me mostly, is when I hear people in the Public Service ringing/texting radio/TV programmes saying "I would be better off on the Dole"

If that is the case, then they should go to their manager/boss and tell him they would rather pack in they're job, claim all the benefits they can and let someone like me take they're job.

That way we both make benefit from higher wages/benefits...

ps. I didn't get the job.

pps. Maybe I was overeducated for the position. But beggars cannot be choosers in the Ireland of today.

splendid101 · 15-05-2011 05:53PM

dan_d wrote: »

Op - do you not know what your salary is?

Of course I know!

It's a social experiment.

If I'd said what I got paid, people would have said, "you should be paid 10% of that, any *sshole could do your work. Typical lazy civil servant" etc., etc., etc. (I'm being facetious)

This way I'm getting a much fairer evaluation of what I should be paid.

It's actually spread fairly evenly, some people are saying I should get way less than I get, some people are pretty much on the money, and some people are saying I should get more than I get.

Would you agree with those posts that aren't insulting you or your work personally, that say what you should/could be paid in comparison to a similar position in the private sector?

Yeah. I think I should get a little less than the equivalent in the private sector. I think I do, pretty much. Most people I know 'in real life' are paid a good bit more than me. We had agency staff in my office who were let go, they were doing the same work as me and were earning what I considered to be significantly more than me. I was perfectly fine with that, I thought it was fair.

There's not much point comparing to other EU countries and their systems, as it's not like with like.

I'm so surprised that there are so few people that see this. George Hook is one example is the public sphere who is always making this mistake.

Thanks for the post.

Alan

mikemac · 15-05-2011 05:57PM

splendid101 wrote: »

I'm an ordinary prson working in what is a pretty **** job. I work hard, as do most people in my office. I do paperwork. I print up form letters after adapting them to suit the individual case. I type up original letters based on a framework. I photocopy large files (often up to several hundred pages). I speak to people on the phone. I do up excel spreadsheets. I work at a reception desk. It's a busy office. It's not rocket science or particularly challenging but it is necessary. Someone has to do what I do. There's no robots and the paperless office is a long way off in Ireland. I work to strict and tight deadlines. I need organisational skills, communication skills, people skills, research skills.

22k

But if it's 34.5 hours a week which lower then most office jobs , I'd say 20k

splendid101 · 15-05-2011 06:00PM

Tell me a person in a job that doesn't have a level of stress within their job.

John Giles.

I don't think I said my job was stressful. It's not. At least no more than any other office job. I've deadlines etc., etc. But nothing that pushes up the blood pressure too much.

But the thing that bugs me mostly, is when I hear people in the Public Service ringing/texting radio/TV programmes saying "I would be better off on the Dole"

I remember back around the election they had a bit on TV3 showing how people could earn a lot from social welfare payments.

I've heard what you quoted above from people both private and public sector. It's true in a lot of cases. Personally, I'd prefer to work even if it meant earning a little less. I'd love the idea of lazing around all day, but I don't think it's good for the aul' mental health.

Anyway, it's a wee bit off topic really.

Good luck with the job hunt!

Alan

splendid101 · 15-05-2011 06:01PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

22k

But if it's 34.5 hours a week which lower then most office jobs , I'd say 20k

It's 34.75 hours as I said earlier.

Net/gross?

Cheers.

MysticalRain · 15-05-2011 06:05PM

splendid101 wrote: »

Isn't it 70% of Private Sector that have taken paycuts? I've taken 3 paycuts since I began.

The PS is still overpaid despite all the pay cuts as the ESRI, among others, pointed out this week.

That 70% figure is misleading. Wages in the private sector are dicatated by market demand. If I change jobs in the morning (which is the usual way people obtain a payrise or promotion in my industry) I will be earning at least 20% less than what I would have earned during the boom times. Technically, that's not reflected in that 70% figure bandied about by the PS unions.

I'd be interested in hearing more about your work. What I do in my office cannot be automated.

I work in IT. Believe me, if the work is repetitive and low-skilled, I can guarantee it you it can be automated. That's why computers were invented. The fact that you do so much work which involves pushing bits of paper around suggests to me that there is something seriously wrong with the way your section of the civil service operates. Those sorts of work practices below in the mid 20th century, not the 21st century.

You'd have to tell me what you earn before I believed that you got paid less than me. Even if you do, so what? You don't know what I think I should be paid.

I'm not going to discuss exactly what I'm earning. But you are in for a rude awakening if you think that the tax receits from the wages of people like me are enough to fund an overpaid public sector. The numbers simply don't add up.

dan_d · 15-05-2011 06:06PM

splendid101 wrote: »

Of course I know!

It's a social experiment. If I'd said what I got paid, people would have said, "you should be paid 10% of that, any *sshole could do your work. Typical lazy civil servant" etc., etc., etc. (I'm being facetious)

This way I'm getting a much fairer evaluation of what I should be paid.

It's actually spread fairly evenly, some people are saying I should get way less than I get, some people are pretty much on the money, and some people are saying I should get more than I get.

I'm confused....Why are you checking your payslip tomorrow so?!:o

splendid101 wrote: »

Yeah. I think I should get a little less than the equivalent in the private sector. I think I do, pretty much. Most people I know 'in real life' are paid a good bit more than me. We had agency staff in my office who were let go, they were doing the same work as me and were earning what I considered to be significantly more than me. I was perfectly fine with that, I thought it was fair.

Agency staff generally get paid a good bit more in a lot of industries. Or rather, in the industry I'm from, they got paid substantially more. Why exactly this is, I'm not sure, but it seems to be the way it works. On what basis do you think you should get less than the private sector, as a matter of interest? I don't know what you get now, but if it's the same as an equivalent private sector job, then (well to me), that seems ok. My gripe would be if you or others with you were overpaid compared to an equivalent private sector job.

splendid101 wrote: »

I'm so surprised that there are so few people that see this. George Hook is one example is the public sphere who is always making this mistake.

Thanks for the post.

Alan

Don't be surprised. There's a fundamental lack of understanding about statistics and statistical analysis in this country, particularly among the media. They're paid to be journalists and talking heads, not mathematicians. Some of the commentary out there is infuriating - at least to anyone who has any understanding of maths and the meaning of numbers. Common sense is not all that common most of the time. As long as the numbers create sensational headlines, most journalists couldn't give two sh*&tes about what they mean or whether they're in any way realistic or relevant.

(FYI - unemployed right now, but previously, I worked 7.30am to 6pm everyday with about an hour for breaks split between morning and lunch. Don't know how many hours that is, but the the basic week was about 50 hrs. Was on 40k, prior to my first paycut. Out of that came taxes/levies/my pension. Due to my work hours, I didn't have much of a life! And speaking from experience - people who think they would be better of on the dole (and go around saying it) need to have their heads slapped. They wouldn't and they clearly haven't got a f&*king clue what they're talking about)

DM addict · 15-05-2011 06:28PM

OP; I asked before, do you think I should get paid more or less than you do? Described my job in the above post which you've quoted.

Also you say you have responsibilities, but I really don't see what they are. You don't have real responsibility compared to say, a nurse. Or someone who's job involves caring for someone, or who's job puts them at risk, or involves providing for the safety of others. Could you let me know what kind of responsibilities you have, other than the duties you've outlined?

mikemac · 15-05-2011 06:35PM

splendid101 wrote: »

It's 34.75 hours as I said earlier.

Net/gross?

Cheers.

Sorry, that .25 hour makes all the difference

22k before tax

Jaysoose · 15-05-2011 06:43PM

You should be paid minimum wage as your job requires little effort or skills.

BrianD3 · 15-05-2011 06:55PM

I see the OP says that he has a "brilliant" pension and others are unsurprisingly agreeing with this as it suits the PS fatcat stereotype.

The pension for a civil service CO is far from brilliant. If the highest point of the scale is ~35k that's a pension of 17.5k and a lump sum of 52.5k. After 40 years service paying
1) PRSI
2) superannuation + widows and orphans
3) pension levy.

The CO scale is 12 increments + two long service increments so if he stays at this grade he'll receive no increment for at least 20 years before retiring. As a result, his average salary for his service will be relatively close to the top of the scale.

Now, compare that to a private sector worker on similar wages or lower getting the COAP. How many years of PRSI do they need to get a full COAP. According to this page it's 520 weeks or 10 years.

They pay no superannuation and no pension levy. If any pension is a golden one, it's this. A nice handy 12k per year and people have the nerve to wail about "x number of private sector workers have no pension"

splendid101 · 15-05-2011 07:01PM

DM addict wrote: »

OP, I'd put you on €9 p/h. (although I suspect you get a lot more) There's a lot of benefits coming with the job, and as you've said yourself it's pretty basic stuff, no qualifications required, no real responsibility, no risks.

Me, I work in childcare. 40 hour week, 20 days holiday. Qualified in Childcare and paediatric first aid. Frequently work unpaid overtime, including staff meetings and training days. No perks whatsoever - I even have to pay for my uniform. I'm responsible (with two colleagues) for a room of ten infants for 9 hours a day.

How much do you think I should get paid, OP? More or less than you?

You should get paid more than me. Do you think you do, if you had to guess? You can put up your wages after I do or before if you want.

amen · 15-05-2011 07:08PM

photocopying, adapting and printing form letter

out of interest what volume (how many) form letters would you print a day ?

is it a manual process or is it just a matter of hitting a print button, the letters are printed and you put in the envelope?

ninty9er · 15-05-2011 07:11PM

BrianD3 wrote: »

I see the OP says that he has a "brilliant" pension and others are unsurprisingly agreeing with this as it suits the PS fatcat stereotype.

The pension for a civil service CO is far from brilliant. If the highest point of the scale is ~35k that's a pension of 17.5k and a lump sum of 52.5k. After 40 years service paying
1) PRSI
2) superannuation + widows and orphans
3) pension levy.

The CO scale is 12 increments + two long service increments so if he stays at this grade he'll receive no increment for at least 20 years before retiring. As a result, his average salary for his service will be relatively close to the top of the scale.

Now, compare that to a private sector worker on similar wages or lower getting the COAP. How many years of PRSI do they need to get a full COAP. According to this page it's 520 weeks or 10 years.

They pay no superannuation and no pension levy. If any pension is a golden one, it's this. A nice handy 12k per year and people have the nerve to wail about "x number of private sector workers have no pension"

I think it's the lump sum that gets up the average person's nose more than anything else. My parents know a couple who are both retired secondary school teachers who took early retirement at 50 last year with a six figure lump sum between them. Tell me that's a reasonable reality? I dare you.

ninty9er · 15-05-2011 07:13PM

amen wrote: »

out of interest what volume (how many) form letters would you print a day ?

is it a manual process or is it just a matter of hitting a print button, the letters are printed and you put in the envelope?

There's a machine for packing envelopes. It just needs to be filled with letters and envelopes. I kid you not. I've used one.

Head The Wall · 15-05-2011 07:16PM

Boskowski wrote: »

I' m bringing myself back into 20 years of age trying to think what a reasonable expectation for a run of the mill but nonetheless proper job at entry level would have been at that stage in life:

I'd say small but tidy gaff, ability to pay my bills, decent food on the table, a few takeaways but need to keep an eye on the grocery bill all the same, ability to go out at the weekends (1 night sometimes 2) but more often than not go to house parties, cafes, cinemas rather than expensive clubs. Getting locked 2 nights at a fiver a pint no way. Sometimes the last week before payday may require a bit of stretching.
Other than that - if absolutely necessary I could squeeze out running a pretty small, cheap second hand car (but insurance is very different in my country for young drivers) but it would put me in a tight spot elsewhere. To be more comfortable financially, I'd probably settle for a scooter or a motorbike and a public transport 'all-in' commuter ticket.

splendid101 wrote: »

Can you cite some of these sources ("numerous reports")please?

Also, I'm pretty sure that the changes to pension do affect all current staff. Can't find a source for that at the moment.

McCarthy Report, The HSE HR director has said there is a couple of thousand excess staff. There have been many comments about the overstaffing, I'm surprised you are unaware of it.

Final salary pension is still in place for all current staff, only new entrants since the last budget will be getting the pension based on average salary

Here's the salary scale for Clerical Officer from here http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/circulars/circular2009/circ282009.pdf

€22,015
€23,042
€24,071
€25,100
€26,128
€27,156
€28,183
€29,193
€30,191
€31,192
€32,187
€33,735
€34,954
€35,515

If you're in there three years you are on either 24 or 25k, another clerical officer posted here recently that because of increments the effects of the recent paycuts have been erased. It's daft that a govt is implementing paycuts, a pay freeze and is still giving people pay raises for turning up to work

dan_d wrote: »

Agency staff generally get paid a good bit more in a lot of industries. Or rather, in the industry I'm from, they got paid substantially more. Why exactly this is, I'm not sure, but it seems to be the way it works.

They get paid more becuse of the uncertain nature of the job and the fact that an employer can hire certain skillsets of staff at short notice for which the agency charges a premium. It would also in a lot of cases be difficult to enter a new environment and get up to speed very quickly which is what is expected of agency staff

DM addict · 15-05-2011 07:28PM

splendid101 wrote: »

You should get paid more than me. Do you think you do, if you had to guess? You can put up your wages after I do or before if you want.

I suspect I get paid less than you. I'll put up my wages after you do. I'd be interested in what others think I should be paid, also.

BrianD3 · 15-05-2011 07:34PM

ninty9er wrote: »

I think it's the lump sum that gets up the average person's nose more than anything else. My parents know a couple who are both retired secondary school teachers who took early retirement at 50 last year with a six figure lump sum between them. Tell me that's a reasonable reality? I dare you.

The thread is about one CO not two teachers. Nice bit of spin there bringing up two teachers so you could talk about a "six figure sum".

BrianD3 · 15-05-2011 07:42PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

McCarthy Report, The HSE HR director has said there is a couple of thousand excess staff. There have been many comments about the overstaffing, I'm surprised you are unaware of it.

Final salary pension is still in place for all current staff, only new entrants since the last budget will be getting the pension based on average salary

Here's the salary scale for Clerical Officer from here http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/circulars/circular2009/circ282009.pdf

€22,015
€23,042
€24,071
€25,100
€26,128
€27,156
€28,183
€29,193
€30,191
€31,192
€32,187
€33,735
€34,954
€35,515

And here's his actual payscale:
€22,015
€23,042
€24,071
€25,100
€26,128
€27,156
€28,183
€29,193
€30,191
€31,192
€32,187
€33,735
€34,954
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515

Even if his pension is calculated on an average, the above would result in a an average of 33k and a pension of 16.5k instead of 17.75k. So is this the difference between a "golden gilt edged pension" and something acceptable to the baying mob?

Obviously this doesn't take into account inflation but then neither does the COAP from paying PRSI. Someone drawing the COAP now paid a relative pittance in PRSI years ago yet receives the COAP at today's rates.

sarumite · 15-05-2011 07:53PM

BrianD3 wrote: »

And here's his actual payscale:
€22,015
....

€35,515

For me to go from the beginning salary to the end salary like that in the same amont of time I would have to move jobs more than once, where I would need to prove my performance and compete each time for the pay rise . If a person doesn't make any effort to advance their career its only right and logical that their pay stagnates.

sollar · 15-05-2011 08:17PM

BrianD3 wrote: »

Even if his pension is calculated on an average, the above would result in a an average of 33k and a pension of 16.5k instead of 17.75k. So is this the difference between a "golden gilt edged pension" and something acceptable to the baying mob?

True, that is far from a gold plated pension. He would get 11,900 on retirement anyway even if he never paid a cent into a pension.

So 2 pension contributions and a pension levy just to get an extra €4500 per year on retirement.

People need to remember that sombody set them payscales. There must have been a reason for it. I'm sure they didn't say lets overpay CO's.

BrianD3 · 15-05-2011 08:23PM

sollar wrote: »

True, that is far from a gold plated pension. He would get 11,900 on retirement anyway even if he never paid a cent into a pension.

So 2 pension contributions and a pension levy just to get an extra €4500 per year on retirement.

Yep. Strange how in Sunday Indo land, 11.9k p.a constitutes "no pension" when talking about a private sector worker. Whereas 17k p.a after 40 years of contributions constitutes a "golden gilt edged pension" when talking about a public servant.

sollar · 15-05-2011 08:32PM

BrianD3 wrote: »

Yep. Strange how in Sunday Indo land, 11.9k p.a constitutes "no pension" when talking about a private sector worker. Whereas 17k p.a after 40 years of contributions constitutes a "golden gilt edged pension" when talking about a public servant.

They don't even try to hide their contempt for the PS anymore.

Head The Wall · 15-05-2011 08:41PM

BrianD3 wrote: »

I see the OP says that he has a "brilliant" pension and others are unsurprisingly agreeing with this as it suits the PS fatcat stereotype.

The pension for a civil service CO is far from brilliant. If the highest point of the scale is ~35k that's a pension of 17.5k and a lump sum of 52.5k. After 40 years service paying
1) PRSI
2) superannuation + widows and orphans
3) pension levy.

The CO scale is 12 increments + two long service increments so if he stays at this grade he'll receive no increment for at least 20 years before retiring. As a result, his average salary for his service will be relatively close to the top of the scale.

Now, compare that to a private sector worker on similar wages or lower getting the COAP. How many years of PRSI do they need to get a full COAP. According to this page it's 520 weeks or 10 years.

They pay no superannuation and no pension levy. If any pension is a golden one, it's this. A nice handy 12k per year and people have the nerve to wail about "x number of private sector workers have no pension"

I think it's an okay pension for someone that does admin for all their life. If they get promotions they will get a better pension, they shouldn't just be entitled to it.

I don't agree either with the non contributory OAP being so high either compared to the contributory one so don't be comparing the PS pension to the OAP

BrianD3 wrote: »

And here's his actual payscale:
€22,015
€23,042
€24,071
€25,100
€26,128
€27,156
€28,183
€29,193
€30,191
€31,192
€32,187
€33,735
€34,954
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515
€35,515

Even if his pension is calculated on an average, the above would result in a an average of 33k and a pension of 16.5k instead of 17.75k. So is this the difference between a "golden gilt edged pension" and something acceptable to the baying mob?

Obviously this doesn't take into account inflation but then neither does the COAP from paying PRSI. Someone drawing the COAP now paid a relative pittance in PRSI years ago yet receives the COAP at today's rates.

If you don't get a promotion or better yourself in life that's your own problem and no one elses, we shouldn't be paying people more than what they're worth

How much do you think I should get paid?

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